well said ;)

Like Eric I'm not racing, so my opinion counts for ****.

BUT.

I totally agree with Skidlids post, and (Domski's come to that). On the very first race of the series, there are effectively 4 classes. Already, after the first race of the series, there is some animosity creeping in.

I know that people hate those who get all self righteous, and smugly say "I told you so", but just take a look back to what me and several others were posting at the outset of this series. We were pleading with the organisers to make it a series for the "normal" DSC rider (to quote Antonye), by restricting it to 583 carburetted bikes on control tyres ONLY (well, I guess we got the tyres bit).

That way it would have been affordable, or at least within reach, for the masses (if any racing can be deemed affordable) and all the "works" teams would have had not significant advantage. OK, so if that had been the case they may not have entered at all, good thing or bad thing?

The results on Sunday may well have been the same if everyone was on 10 year old carbed SS's, but at least we'd have known the true extent of rider ability.

BTW: Fair play to 'the old man", that's the spirit under which the current rules should've been played out. Just an ordinary bloke putting in the commitment and riding his socks off. Well done on your 4th & 5th mate.

[Edited on 2-5-2005 by Jools]

Ian - not taking anything away from you mate - you rode a blinding race:cool:
Andy reckoned even with any extra power, he would have had trouble getting round you:o

I think this thread needs to get back to butch's question tho........

very well said!





i'll swap my shock for some of your ability.;)

i think i'm right in saying that a number of competitors have got on the grid for under 3k a couple even under 2k?

It would appear that he with the most money wins

Yes - me cos I used my road bike and added second hand sils, second hand belly pan, second hand rearsets. But I already had an Ohlins ( sorry Ian ) :o
Add to that incidentals a kitchen bowl and fibreglass and tyres etc and the rest was just time and some track practice expenses.

and are you having fun ????

Had a great weekend thanks yes :)

EXACTLY.

that above all else is whats its all about.

No it’s still down to the ability of the rider, but I think if Andy 583 was on Ian’s bike 620 he would have passed him. I also think if he was on Jeff’s bike and Jeff was on Andys, Jeff wouldn’t have won.

Ian rode his socks off but Andy rode with his pans off from were I was. hat off to you mate :lol::lol::lol:

Calm down its only a thread dear!
Hats of to all the riders they ALL did a graet job,and i most certainly was not having a pop or trying to devalue anyones efforts at Cadwell but i really do think that with some carefull concideration this thorny matter can be resolved.
Time is not on our side though as i know for a fact that the phones at Baines's and Jhp will be busy tomorro.

one thing is for sure, if competing next year it will HAVE to be a 620 at least. Looking at guys far more capable than I on that short circuit struggling...

Ok folks, there have been some interesting comments made on this thread and I have had a couple of calls this afternoon from people with an interest in this discussion.

Rather than post my own personal views, I will be speaking to the Racing committee tomorrow and we will post up our considered reply, to the issues raised.

Yes it is their choice a decision I made based on the original rules when the price and availability of bigbore kits was unknown with figures of £900 inc the VAT getting quoted for the kit.
I thought a cheap fun racing budget should be in the order of £2k to £2.5k as a starter class as I have run a Ducati in the SoT that sort of money.

So after reading the intended rules
(From the original rules as posted on the site 26th Oct 2004

This is a suggested rule book for a fun racing class intended to provide an inexpensive start for those who want to try their hand at racing but who want to stay loyal to Ducati when they do it. Modifications are allowed but primarily to allow older bikes to be competitive with the later versions.

Motorcycles to be based on Ducati 2 valve air cooled V-twin 600/620 built post 1992 and the maximum capacity allowed will be 675cc. )
I thought I would pay my £200 and put my name into the hat

Obviously I was very mistaken about what most consider a inexspensive start to racing.

Still I have made my decision and intend to stick with it, I was happy with my riding and the way my bike went and handled at Cadwell, if it wasn't for the brake problem I would have been the 2nd 583cc bike home and was looking at a 13th place in Race 1 lapping in the 52 second bracket and latter in the day still not trusting my brakes I was down into the 52s by the 2nd lap and I'm fairly certain if I could have done a few more laps each race I would have gone quicker.

I'm not worried about who won or who was 2nd or 3rd for that matter I was never going to be challenging them on a 583, I was just disapointed to come away with Zero points after 2 races after putting in some reasonable lap times on my budget racer.
When i'm happy that I have enough corner speed back, I'll be taking my 600 supersport machine back to Pembrey in an attempt to break my best lap time. To me its not about winning its about beating the rider I was yesterday, if I could do that every day of my life I may eventually consider myself fast, but compared to the pit crew I had yesterday I still have a fair way to go.

Although I do wonder what a 674 kit would have done for my lap times or how fast would I have lapped on a 620.
But I was still having fun apart from the crash and the two other occassions when the brake lever came back to the bars.
Roll on Combe as the 583 will be out there doing its best and hopefully this time I'll be able to stop in time before I run over all the crashers at Quarry. :roll:

Skids

Have to say well put mate!

Fair comments Kev, but when you've got SIX other bikes !!!! - you're gonna be on a budget aren't you????? :o:o:o:o:o:o:lol::lol::lol:

Only six, he isn't trying. I got caught just before lunch today, when I was getting my old Jaguar out of the garage. I had forgotten that I had 3 engines hidden over the far side of it.

This resulted in "she who is sometimes obeyed" having a look in the shed and discovering the 5 frames that I have in there; apparently I now have 17 Ducati's, lunch was very quiet!

Each to their own I say, we all have our own goals, mine was to put a bike on the track for less than £2k and have some fun at the same time as improving my riding. Almost there just couldn't quite keep the bike on the track.

He meant 6 Ducati's Chris, not counting the 2 H0nda's, 2 Suzuki's, 1 Kwaker, 1 Harris Magnum and the R6 Yam proddy bike that one of my Sunday pit crew took to 21st in the Junior TT in 2003.

I have two different opinions on this discussion, for two different reasons.

Opinion 1
It's disappointing that the top spots were being fought for by those who I would consider not the riders this series was intended for (my opinion, I'm entitled to it). Just imagine what it would have done for the DSC to have these guys out of the equation - that would've meant me, phil, tony and ali fighting the whole race for the top slots... isn't that what it was to be about? Dom was right earlier when he said it's looking like a commercial excercise for dealers, but also easy pickings for seasoned racers who have no history in the DSC.

Opinion 2
From a riders point of view I don't care too much for opinion 1. I'm a novice, that was my first race meet and I've only done 6 track days and been my own instructor for 99% of these. I was dreaming of a top ten finish and I got 7th/6th, being beaten only by those mentioned in opinion 1. So in my eyes I won both races, phil was a very VERY close second, and Ali/Tony each had a third.
So I'm well chuffed, because it just wasn't possible to do any better.

I can hardly walk today because I gave my knee a royal beating with a qualifying crash, but I don't care... I did something I never thought I'd be able to do, and now I'm my own hero :P

[Edited on 2-5-2005 by NBs996]

At least my handlebars got in the top-ten !!!! ;)

Spot on, on ALL counts Nick!
 

I'll be there on a 583 Monster having thrown the princely sum of about 2.5k to get EVERYTHING together at very short notice. That includes the bike, my licence, ACU/NewEra membership, all sundries and the only performance enhancements will be a DP air filter and dynojet kit, oh and no suspension mods.
I had the intention of seeing how this year goes and maybe getting a big bore done over the winter to start aiming at being competitive but it seems that my '99 bike wont take it so I'd have to replace the bike!?!
I am concerned that this NOVICE series was set out with an aim for "ordinary" club members (i watched them race and they're not ordinary in any meaning of the word, they were amazing ;) ) to get to grips with racing and, as such, I thought it would be "ordinary" club members winning prizes/trophies etc. not just to be satisfied with taking part.
I'm happy to do just that, take part, but will front running "club members" like "Old Man", NBS996, Phil, TP, Ali etc be content to "Just" win the "DSC Club Member's Cup"?
Or should they be the sort of person this series was meant to encourage, and by so doing, encourage the rest of us inexperienced "racers"?
I, for one, got so caught up with the atmosphere on Sunday that I can't wait to join them on the grid at Castle Combe, whatever performance I put in I'll be happy to have taken part, regardless of the result because it won't affect my racing with Lin and Mike anyway :P Doesnt make it "fair" for everyone though.

I was consierding doing the DD next year, but on a tight budget.

At first it put me off, but I already have a bike totally suitable:

BIG-BORED to a 900ss

Andy;)

Interesting debate, just wanted to add one instruction, one opinion, and one observation:

1a) Weeksy do not add anything to this debate. PLEASE leave it, move on nothing to see here.

1b) Geoff would have won even if he was riding the duck- tape SS ;) Some of you may have missed the course commentator’s commentary, - think it was on your warm up lap, but he seemed to know Geoff, and mentioned a 47.something lap. From my (photographers) point of view I could not pan the camera at the right matched speed to get a good photo of him.

1c) The buzz and smiles around the paddock were great please don't spoil it, opinions are great and Nick and Kev (to name just 2 have posted some good points) but the post that contained the word "shallow" I have removed, - not on.

As Chris said the DDRC will be debating the subject (never a dull moment).

I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression that ALL participants had to be club members ????????:puzzled:

I don't think anyone is claiming otherwise. It's more about being clear what the series is aimed to do. If it is a series to provide experienced racers an opportunity to show their talents then fine. If it is to allow 'works' entries to demonstrate technical excellence to within a whisker of what the rules allow then fine. But don't then try and make out that club members trying out racing for the first time are there for any other reason than to make up the numbers.

That isn't what I thought Desmodue was about.

The only reason that big bore kits were allowed at all was to try and even out the performance gap to the 620 engines and provide a more level playing field. To then allow those with 620 engines to re-establish that gap is just nonsense - plain and simple.

Sure, Geoff would have won anyway... but wouldn't all the novices like to compare their times and know that there was no other difference than talent? Know what can be achieved and aim for?

I'm with the Old Man on this.... rules is rules, stop yer moanin, dont suppose anyone noticed whom among us was running PIRELLI DIABLO CORSA FRONT TYRES?? :borg:

Just to add my tuppence worth(for what it's worth).
1/ There were no 'works' bikes there. Geof paid for his bike-ok prepped for him by Baines Racing-I had a long chat with Geof, he has 2 other Ducati's a road and a track SPS, oh and a road Triumph as well-he is also a club member(as are all the entrants), but he doesn't post on this board.
The 2 Ducati London South bikes were ex loan monsters which the riders paid for and the workshop guys prepped in their own time. Dave Rileys bike was built at Ducati Coventry since as you know he works there, but it's his bike. Chris Butchers bike was paid for by his dad Graham, and prepared by both of them.
2/ When the rules were formulated(not by me) there were no 'Big Bore' kits available for the 620 bikes, there still aren't. However if you are prepared to invest time and money poring over piston catalogues it IS possible to find a piston which will give you a big bore-so basically you make your own, which is what Baines Racing did-there is nothing in the rules to say you cannot do this.
The 'Gentlemans agreement' stems from the fact that John Hackett being an engineer was also going down this route, and when he told us I asked him to put it on hold, which he agreed to do.
The reason that John was doing this is because he felt that a properly developed big bored 583 when equipped with flat slide carbs(which no-one has done yet) would walk away from a 620, and he wanted his bikes to be competitive.

Like I said, this is my perspective, the Race Team will discuss all of this and post a considered answer to this and the meaning of life and the universe............

John

The Answer will be Ian Leah on the Triple '9' racing bike :lol:

DEALER ENTRIES
 

I rode a dealer entry, I finished 23rd and 21st respectivley. Our bike was a crash damaged demonstrator that I rebuilt in just three weeks, working in the evening and on my days off to complete.

The only modifications I could afford to make to the bike were a small airbox mod and a set of Remus DP pipes.

I managed to find a set of race fairings in the USA.

The bike suffered massive clutch slip on the straights and bottomed out in the old hairpin.

I ran stock road bike suspension and standard road bike gearing.

I would like to do everything within the rules of this series to make the bike more competitive.... however funds are limited.

The main point of this whole series is supposed to be about how good you felt whilst you were racing.

I had a smile on my face the whole weekend, I'm not fast and my bike is not fast. I still had fun.

I cant believe some of the things you have said in this thread. Jealousy is such a negative thing. It will tarnish your karma, it will make you fall off.... Geoff took the time in testing on Friday to show me around the circuit, he showed me were I could go faster and where I could brake later.

I didnt ask him, he just offered. That man is egoless.

Grow Up. :sing:

Doh..... I think he wuz running standard Diablos my friend...

So do you think it will get to the point that we have a technical scruiteneer on site, checking everyones machines? Dipping the tanks to check whom is running 110 RON race fuel, or whom is porting and polishing thier heads, or whom is running hi-lift camshafts etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc?

Why cant we all just be shiny happy peolple?:burn::burn:

Laters all....:biaggi:

Obviously I can't speak for everyone else who has written on this thread but for my own part I can tell you, categorically, that jealousy has nothing to do with it. Nor do I have any issue with any individual rider. I am merely expressing my view that the organisers should do the right thing for the series.

In section 1 of the rules it says: "Most modifications are only allowed for safety reasons or to allow older generations of the Desmo Due family of motorcycles to remain competitive with the latest machines." That is what everyone I've ever spoken to was under the impression was the rule. The fact that 1.1 doesn't go on to expressly disallow 620 engines changing their capacity coupled with the fact that in the very first race one competitor has done exactly that is a mistake. It is a loop hole/error/whatever you'd like to call it but it should be fixed.

So if I've read that right... you've inherited a bike (and good on you for that), race prepped it yourself, on your own budget in your own time. "Dealer entry"? errr no mate, a lot of hard work from a private individual.

You must've read different promo material than that which attracted my entry... I'd love to see a copy!

Haven't noticed anyone been jealous, just posts asking the commitee to try and keep the series on the right track and offering an opinion why it could go, or has gone different to what was expected. And an ammendment to the rules in February regarding rider entry qualification seems to demonstrate that the race commitee agreed it was attracting the wrong riders.

If anyone has an opinion then they're entitled to be heard, if everyone says nothing, like you seem to be asking us to do, then the commitee won't be aware of any concerns - so there's nothing wrong with the comments in this thread.

nite nite

The rules are quite specific about all those things. If anyone was to contravine them then they would simply be cheating. If you are suggesting that anyone is cheating then put your money down and protest.

What we are talking about here is an area of the rule book that hasn't been made sufficiently clear leading to a contradiction between sections 1 and 1.1


I think it's better to get these things sorted as soon as they become apparent rather than let it fester as point of contention for the rest of the year (and future years).

Most of us running the 620's have suffered clutch slip at some point. An extra plate to preload the springs was put in mine and mw's and they don't slip anymore. It might work for you too.

Good luck.

TP

Ok cool, didnt mean to offend, one day I will win..... I hope...... LOL:lol:

sounds like everybody had a great time(except those that hurt themselves - recover quickly) i would have loved to have joined in-having raced in the RD/LC 350 series(showing my age). It is FUN, and hard work and expensive and if you can get your own personal reward great - i found that was how it started, but as you move up the field or do more races you will hunger for that top 10 finish and then a podium then number 1. This is natural, but don't loose that FUN/FEAR factor. Shame that it isn't just the old 600 engined bikes eligible - that would have been simple(and cheap)