I'd second that Tim:D
Much more likely to be a 'goer'

Have just had a chance to chat with Alan (who is at the moment up at Andy's) and both of them would agree with Skids & NB's comments.

Whilst this is a really good idea in principle, Al would not want to let his bike out of his sight - and def not want to 'not take all his spares/tools' etc as Fordie has already mentioned.

Neither of us are in particularly well paid jobs - nor do we have much holiday, but we do enjoy getting to most of the things the DSC does:)
For the last 2 years we have been unable to afford the time or the money to accompany Mark Hill to the Bemsee round at Croix - he leaves on the Weds, and doesnt return till late Sun or Monday. 4 or 5 days out of a precious 20 days annual holiday entitlement for one meeting has to be considered seriously by both of us.

Chris - please let us know who you travelled with, at that cost mate - we cant get anywhere near that price for a van with 2 or 3 bikes & 3 people on board:(

Just our 5p worth into the pot tho....

Looking forwards to hearing more info - and we are not discounting doing this totally, but at the present time would rather back a foreign trackday - or a 'no points scoring round'


Finally - you say 'expanding the series' for next year Chris?
We are just a little worried, as this seasons 6 meetings will have cost approx £600 alone in entries, without travelling, time off work on occasions for travelling, fuel to race etc (as well as the beers;) ) so newcomers (and some of existing owners/riders etc) might just find 10 or more rounds prohibitively expensive (without the introduction of an overseas race:o ) - and the series would no longer be the 'budget introduction to racing' it was originally aimed to be........in just one season......

Looking forwards to far more feedback & confirmation of info
C:) - and also Alan



[Edited on 13-7-2005 by CK and AK]

Good shout Tim. An inclusive track day fine, but as for a DD round...

I'm with Fordie. What possible reason is there for taking the race series abroad when all the tracks you could possibly want are on the doorstep.

I also agree with JPM in the sense that if the DSC truly want's to be "The UK club for Today's Ducati Rider" then the race series should be firmly anchored in the UK. It would be much better to concentrate on spreading the club's appeal through racing on a wider variety of UK circuits and giving some value back to our northern friends for their subscription money. After all, if there weren't all of the grass roots members paying their subs into the club the DSC would never have been big enough to launch the race series in the first place, let's make sure every member gets an equal shout.

At the BMF we talked to a lot of potential members from all over the country about the success of the DD series and some were impressed enough to sign up based on that. A bit churlish and disingenuous to then say "Ahhh, but we're not coming round your way because it's too far and New Era don't use Croft or Knockhill anyway". What a slap in the face for regional organisers trying to raise interest in their part of the world.

OK so New Era doesn't use Croft or Knockhill, so does that mean it uses a tracks abroad then? If not, which club is hosting the proposed foreign round? If it's using someone other than New Era to host DD championship rounds then surely logic states that the DD championship could use New Era to host some rounds but other clubs host other rounds. It shouldn't take a large stretch of the imagination to work in circuits that are more geographically dispersed in this country should it?

I certainly wouldn't go to the expense and palaver of organising a foreign trip to watch a DD round, and I suspect that support from the UK would be inversally proportional to the distance from the UK and costs of the trip. I honestly can't see any positive reasons to do this other than to give the 3.5% of people in this club who are DD racers a bit more of a frisson and swagger to their racing. Unless of course somebody wants to start a Le Croix or Almeria region for the DSC

To be honest, from the tension in this thread the foreign round proposal seems to be another example of the DD series acting in a divisive and alienating way to the ordinary grass roots members when it should be inclusive.

I'm not levelling any criticism whatsoever at the current DD racers, only using DD as a way of refering to the whole championship package. With that caveat I would say "remember where you came from DD and don't turn your back on the folks that enable you to play". I may be making myself deeply unpopular, but someone's got to point up whenever DD is getting too big for it's boots and keep it real for the DSC members

You okay behind there Chris?

I'm gobsmacked what I've read above by some of you.

Might as well damn Chris eh? Let's not forget, if it had not been for Chris and a few others, there would not be a DSC. Now that was a gem of an idea.

:flame:

Tim, overseas trackday, cool idea. Don't forget you're keys! :P

Yes!

So, who are you levelling this with Jools?

So even though Chris asked for opinion, you seem to be suggesting we should just keep quiet, let him go to the trouble of organising such an event, then just not turn up!
Or am I reading you wrong Flanks??

I've not seen any digs at Chris yet (unless I missed the), just the idea of a foreign round, wherever it may be.

I'm with Jools here, DD seems to be getting too big for its boots. It was a launch pad for new racers and now there's talk of foreign rounds? I'd be mightily disappointed if I had put all my efforts into my first year only to find it expanding beyond my means in the second year of racing.

Maybe my comments aren't welcome as I'm not a DD racer, but as Antonye said, it's not stopped me before :D

Flanks - Chris asked for opinions - therefore, there have been responses mate.

I trust what I have put isnt offensive to you?:puzzled: - in fact, I cannot find much in this thread that could be construed as offensive?

However, as has been covered before in other threads - I know that the comprehension of each persons written narrative can be construed by some as one thing, and by others as something totally different.

It all depends on how you read things.............:)

Here here :)

Just wanted to add:

we'd like to do this again next year - maybe with AK in the seat:o

BUT as long as the complete rules are available BEFORE signing up again

AND

The Rounds are noted (eg: a maximum number of meetings)

Plea from grass roots members here:

Keep it UK based
Keep it to 6 meetings for the year

We can still just then have time (and the money for our road bikes) to do other DSC things like meets etc!





[Edited on 13-7-2005 by CK and AK]

I second that.

Well said

Thankyou dear!:cool:

edited, cos i thought you were taking the p to start with!:o

[Edited on 13-7-2005 by CK and AK]

I wouldn't dare!

...and you were not wrong about my riding skills!

[Edited on 13-7-2005 by NBs996]

Take cover, FRIENDLY FIRE!!!! :lol:

Thats a good idea Tim:eureka:
I would have thought you could only gaurantee 50% of the dd's going for it. Makes far more commercial sence:cool:

You got my vote,
still I wouldn't mind the odd extra round by way of the odd two day meeting.
If I want more racing I can always either enter a North Glos mini twins or a Supersport 600 race on one of my other bikes funds permitting. But would like the DD series/championship to be a relatively cheap form of racing

What's the nearest track to the Ducati factory?

Why not get Ducati to sneak 36 x 620's out the back door and let us race (test ride) them :P

Then all you need is a flight for £50 and a some free accomodation.

I could afford that :D

Otherwise there is no way I could do it - and I only pay for entries and diesel etc.

I'm struggling to pay for these 6 rounds in England!! :(

I do like the idea very much, but for me it's out of reach.

SPANK MY ARSE AND CALL ME CHARLIE!




chris only asked a simple question:

"would many of this years racers and prosepctive ones for next year be interested in a race outside of the UK?"

a simple yes/no and maybe a comment would have done!

chris, as i see it, is just trying to throw ideas out there to improve the series no harm in that. if no one does it then it will collapse and stagnate.

any changes made to the format, number of rounds, venues etc will be done in association with the views of current and prospective racers no doubt.

lets not all start flapping about things that are not an issue yet.




regarding a comment from jools:

"To be honest, from the tension in this thread the foreign round proposal seems to be another example of the DD series acting in a divisive and alienating way to the ordinary grass roots members when it should be inclusive."

while i respect you jools, and believe most of your comments are spot on, i think you a wide of the mark here.

DD is only adding to the DSC. this thread was a simple question, no more, no less. everything that is connected with DD is in ADDITION to all the other stuff the club does. if someone doesnt want to go to a DD round to watch or take part, fine, they can carry on with all the usual DSC stuff they do. its still there. not everything the club does has to be "inclusive", some people want to do rideouts others dont; some people like meeting for drinks others dont; some dont want to do trackdays others do. this goes for all the clubs activities.

you choose what you want to do, you leave the ones you dont. its called freedom of choice.

"alienating way to the ordinary grass roots members" ?

what is a grass roots member anyway?

i do what i can and more importanly what i want in the club.

only been on one rideout,
do the essex meets every now and then,
done DSC trackdays
done factory trip
do lunchtime drinks with DSC'ers
do xmas drinks
do AGM's
do DD.

dont know if that makes me grass roots or not? but even if i didnt ride in DD i would just view it as another string to the DSC bow that i could either join in or not.

Well, I've been outside with Phillc swapping bits around on the bikes and I'm really glad I missed this thread 'developing'

Has anyone considered that:

1. Chris is asking for expressions of interest to see if it's worth his while spending the time to investigate so he can come back with the details that are being requested?

2. That levelling accusations of 'DD' getting too big for it's boots and forgetting the grass roots might be a little OTT considering he's only asking to see if anyone's interested?

3. That carrying on like this when someone is prepared to give a lot of time and effort setting this up is just bloody rude and ungrateful?

Can I ask someone to please stop me if I think of volunteering to organise something for this club and remind me what can happen!

Jeez ...

I'm keen to keep racing next year but it's stuff like this thread and threads before it that make me think I should go elsewhere.

Anyone want a sorted 620?

:mad:

[Edited on 13-7-2005 by TP]

Can I have it?

Some more thoughts / comments for the pot.

I think the original spirit of DD was to provide affordable racing with a limited number of rounds, catering for those with limited wallets and other commit (eg, family, work, other social etc) which precluded attending a typical 12 - 14 club rounds in a season.

With the above in mind my personal view is that a foreighn round is will probably be too expensive in time and money for me - but on the surface a nice idea.

Nort / South divide? If you exclude Croft & Knockhill, all the other tracks - Oulton, Mallory, Donnington, Cadwell - are centered arround the centre of the UK, with Brands, Snetterton, Pembrey poking out the edges somewhat. So no concious n / s divide me thinks.

I'm in favour of sticking to about 6 rounds next year (for all the reasons mentioned above). However one way to get in extra rounds for those that want to / have the time / have the money while not penalising those of us who can't do more would be to base championship points on say any six rounds. So if you do more than six meeting only your six best results count to championship points. Means I can go on holiday and not drop two championship places because I missed Snetterton!

I would be interested in doing more longer races in conjunction with KRC - but I prefer endurance to sprint racing.

Dickie/TP... eh??

A simple yes/no would be very little help. If answering 'no' then it should be backed up with 'why' and opened up for discussion so as to allow problems to be addressed if possible.

None of the answers to the original question have been off the mark (I don't think!). The responses that might be considered border-line don't have anything to do with the original question so aren't aimed at Mr B in any way and shouldn't be considered a black mark on a valid discussion!

The fact that we've been discussing the subject can only be a good thing - it's brought out a few worthy points, namely trackday rather than race.

Am I wrong??

[Edited on 13-7-2005 by NBs996]

What's the point in worrying about problems/issues at this stage if only 5 people are even interested ??????

The point is to find out whether 5 are interested or 25. If the latter, then would be the time to address possible problems before a final go/no go decision is made.

Clubs generally mean different things to different people. It is possible to enjoy some aspects while choosing not to get involved in others (trackdays and warp speed rideouts in my case). However, I don't believe this club has ever been about everyone doing everything. So if you don't like/enjoy an aspect of the clubs activities, then CHOOSE NOT TO GET INVOLVED in that aspect. And leave alone those that are.

North/South - what is the split on Members currently Lizzie ??? And remember this is a democracy folks - majority rule

OK, off my hobby horse now :devil::devil:

[Edited on 13-7-2005 by clockwork orange]

Depnding on location cost etc, i may be tempted to bin the fammily holiday, Bugger it it may even be the fammily holiday.
provisional yes
Glyn

Fair points by Nick, CK and Jamie. Maybe I misunderstood the the replies. Just seemed some of the later postings before mine had a tone to them. Again my mistake if I'm wrong. But i guess I'm not the only 1 who thought this?

Indeed. Chris asks what people think Nick, about racing 1 race abroad. But to side track about whose up north or south, what costs what, underlining thought that DD racers need to 'swagger', or big themselves up. or the club is 2 tier. Those comments were not needed, something TP quite rightly says. A simple, yay or nay was all was needed!

TP's posts sums up really how I feel i guess. Never 1 for expressing what i feel, as well as him :lol:


Imola is the closest track CK.

Jamie, who dare try to shut you up........ shorty :P

Soz :D

[Edited on 14-7-2005 by Flanks]

simple No from me....................( cost related if it can be prooved its affordable within reason then perhaps..)

I would like the energies of the DD MT and the racers directed on the rules for next year with regard to the class split or engine mods etc...........( sorry but im anxious to start my savings plan NOW lol )

Im with CK 6- 8 rounds max keep it affordable * joke *, to allow others to get into racing at a grass roots level ..IMHO its what the DD was developed for....if certain DD racers want a more affluent series or want to expand there career in racing then they can move to Mini Twins or the like.!!! Keep the DD for the DSC and for the members that want to enter a relativley "novice " and " affordable "series albeit a competative one.

Phil



[Edited on 14-7-2005 by fil2]

To borrow a phrase from Dibble "Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear" where do I start. Maybe in chronological order.

Flanks. You point out that Chris Bushell and others put a lot of their time and effort into getting the DSC started in the first place. That's true. To their eternal credit they also set up the management structure to support the whole ethos of the club as a club run for the benefit of all of it's members rather than pander to their own egos. They had the courage to let the club develop organically into what it is today and, with a lot of nurturing, this club developed into the best Ducati related club in the UK - perhaps the world.

We all value the benefits that we receive from the club, but more than that, the friendships that each one of us has formed through the club, the generosity of spirit and cameraderie that's evident at any DSC event you care to name is something very, very special and is unique to this club. This rare and unique club spirit may have come about through nature or nuture but, however it came into being, it is a very fragile ecosystem that we should all strive to protect.

You ask, if not the DD racers, who I am levelling my opinions towards. Well, the answer is DD itself, not any specific individual. You may notice that I have only mentioned Chris for the first time in the above paragraph, and only then in response to your point about his involvement in the genesis of the DSC.

So what do I mean about "DD itself". At the AGM in January, I raised concerns that whilst DD was a great idea, we, the members, needed to be careful that while a race series is very exciting, sexy and seductive, by definition only a small percentage of members would actually be involved and that it should not come to dominate everything in the club.

I've been involved (or very close to) motorsport of some kind all my adult life and I have seen at first hand some of the negatives. By definition, the people who get most involved in motorsport are highly competitive individuals and I've seen people who have been inseperable friends become mortal enemies over minor incidents or allegations of cheating. I have seen the bitter feuds that have started over interpretation of rules and regulations and I have seen the corrosiveness of the human spirit when a bit of competition creeps in.

When you start introducing competition into a club like the DSC it is all too easy to create some sort of Frankenstein's Monster (that would be the S4R then - to get the monster puns out of the way) that would start with the best intentions, but actually start from the very begining with imperfections. A Frankenstein's monster that quickly develops a mind of it's own, gets beyond the control of it's creators and rampages through the fragile ecosystem that is the DSC.

I say yet again that I am not on a crusade against DD, I think the series is a great idea, the racing is fantastic and I would be amongst the racers myself (and may yet be) as soon as I get Mrs Jools to agree. However, I would like to think that even if I was on the inside of DD I would still fight against "the monster" developing a life of it's own and causing a trail of destruction through the club we all love.

Thankfully, we are not at that stage, but DD has already been at the centre of many disputes, it has already led to the departure of some DSC members and, if we are all honest, is the single item (outside the Vman debate) that causes so much friction within the club.

Which brings me onto Dickie's point about me being wide of the mark with my comments about the "tension that exists within this thread".

This tension was not of my making. JPM had already opened a North/South debate and been jumped on for his troubles. Normally inoffensive people like Lizzie had been prompted to post remarks such as "So maybe give this north-south divide crap a rest maybe?" and for JPM to reply "Jesus...Can't say a thing can I? It's a very valid point FFS!". Various appeals to calm down had already been made before I voiced my opinion.

Dickie also countered my comments about "the grass roots" DSC member, and what one of those is anyway? A very good question!

In truth, there is no typical grass roots member, we have people whose interests are in long distance touring, we have people who get the most out of rideouts, we have people who enjoy DSC organised events such as the mega-meets, we have people who are track day fanatics, we have people who are avid race fans and travel afar to watch MotoGP and WSB, we have people who enjoy evening meets for a chat and a pint, we have hardcore long-distance riders as well as people whose enjoyment of Ducati ownership comes from polishing their bike. It's a very broad church. To truly be "The UK club for today's ducati rider" the DSC needs to be very careful to retain this broad appeal.

Of course we also have the DD entrants, but I say again, that is only 35 people out of 1000. This is not levelled at any personality involved in DD as an entrant, or any DD organiser but there is a perception (and quite a valid one in my view) that DD gets a disproportionate amount of the clubs attention given that it only accounts for 3.5% of the membership. I would go so far as to say it is the only one of the clubs activities (outside of the web site) that gets any 'official' organisation, all the rest of the clubs activities still go on, just as Dickie states, but they happen organically by members taking the initiative to sort out things for themselves and making things happen themselves. This is true for most rideouts, it is true even for 'flagship' events such as the BMF.

It would be nice to see some events other than DD get the same amount of 'official' attention. There are loads of things that could do with this DSC support - how about an "officially" organised tour to WDW 2006 to take just one example that would appeal to a different membership sector? Or starting a DSC organised UKDW as was suggested last year - perhaps a cross between a weekend's camping, beer, barbeque, bands and entertainment with a trackday thrown in?

Thanks for your remarks about your respect for my opinions though Dickie. As somebody who always tries to take an objective, rational and well argued approach to voicing my opinion I appreciate that.

I re-itterate that I am not against DD, I just want to make sure that it doesn't become the "Frankenstein's Monster" that ultimately tears the heart out of this great club.

I did not, and will not, personalise this argument and it's a shame that Flanks and especially TP have construed my remarks as a personal attack against Chris or anybody else.

I am also somebody who is willing to volunteer my time to help this club in any way that I can and I am well aware of how thankless a task it can be. I compromised my own ride at nearly every rideout last year to ensure that the stragglers at the back were not left behind and became a slower, less confident rider myself - as a result of not getting enough practise at the sharp end. I help out with the BMF every single year and support every DSC event that I can (including DD). And I have already volunteered to do much more for the club regions if my services are required.

So, I hope TP, that your remarks about "carrying on like this and just being bloody rude and ungrateful" were not levelled at me. However, since the statement in your reply was closely coupled to my remarks about "DD getting to big for it's boots" it looks as though they were.

As has been stated by others, Chris asked for opinions (he surely wasn't inviting opinions solely from DD entrants was he?) and I voiced my opinions in what I hope was a mature, considered and rational way. You will know from my entire posting history on this board that I am not given to ranting, so I make no apologies for voicing my opinions in the way that I do and I don't consider that I need any lessons in civility from you or anyone else.

Folks,

Dont worry I have caught any haymakers yet and am still feeling rather perky.

I have to agree with the comments that Dickie, TP, Flanks, etc have put up, in that I put this thread up to assess interest before the real hard work starts.

From what I have seen on the message board and the responses that have come direct to me, we have a general level of interest that would tend to suggest that this one will be a goer.

I am mindfull of Skids and The Old Man's comments about not making it complusory (Say best 6 out of 7 rounds to count or whatever) and the necessity that we have the rules and proposed schedule out before the Brands Hatch round. Accordingly the ground work has to be done now for next year.

I have heard back from the race organiser and will be speaking with them in the next couple of days to ensure that it is something that can happen (insurance, Club membership, etc) before we really get stuck into things.

I would re-iterate that I am mindfull of costs and would look to ensure that the event is going to be ecenomically viable for everyone. The other thing is that people will have at least 6 months warning on this, to enable them to save up to do it. Also where we are looking at is a damn site closer to England than Italy (estimate is 4.5 hours driving from Calais), I just checked and London to Knockhill comes up at over 8 hours!.

I realise that there are a lot of ifs and buts at the moment; however I see it as an opportunity to experience something different through the Club, being expansive rather than inward looking, growing rather than shrinking what we do. Subject to more information there will be a lot for general members to do than just watch a DD race.

I dont understand where all this is comming from....how is it perceived that " DD " is taking over..........ALL the other events are going ahead all over subscribed with future events in the planning. Rideouts are still going ahead with more and more attending..!!!

The DD is part of the club....for all to attend in what capacity they can.

I Know its probably not the case but speaking for myself and purely from a persoan view i feel as though so much force is building against the DD ...??? Fordie Kelly and myself have put so much into the DD series as averyone else has and it saddens me to think that it is causing all this !....i thought people really enjoyed the racing........

Where is all this comming from.......... ??

[align=center]

[/align]

Simple yes from me

Antonye, where the dickens did you get that "film"? It absolutely, completely and utterly sums-up this thread!!!!

Anyhow...taking an "average" of the above posts, the whole business looks like receiving a resounding, well..."maybe" at best, or "over my dead body" at worst from the racers. I can't see where Chris has interpreted all this chitter/chatter as "a goer" (Sorry Chris!), and indeed as someone who is reeling at the cost of competing thus far (the crash at Snetterton didn't help, I know) I would plead with the organizers not to go abroad for a points-scoring round, or to blinkin' Knockhill for that matter....eeeeuuughhh!

As for a "best of, say six out of seven" rounds...I don't know of any other race series organized on that basis. I thought racing was all about consistency and all that, encouraging actually finishing races.

Andy #99

.

The Bemsee nationwide is based on that method. They have 18 rounds based on 9 weekends of racing and your best 16 count towards the championship. They are the series that have a round in France.

As for a "best of, say six out of seven" rounds...I don't know of any other race series organized on that basis. I thought racing was all about consistency and all that, encouraging actually finishing races.

Andy #99


gets my vote ..all rounds counts..........:D

seeing as we are going off on another tangent................

i actually like the idea of best 7 out of 8.

i missed one this year due to a holiday and i just think it gives a bit of leeway for people that may have other committments too.

what happens if you attend 8 meeting and get a DNF due to crash or engine issue's in 1 meet...can you drop that result..??

i guess so.

i see what you are saying that it doesnt reward consistency.

maybe if dates are sorted out early enough as they look like they will be it wont be an issue

. [/quote]

The Bemsee nationwide is based on that method. They have 18 rounds based on 9 weekends of racing and your best 16 count towards the championship. They are the series that have a round in France. [/quote]

Okay, okay, I knew there'd be a smart-a#se out there to prove me wrong...thats what comes of talking out of your back-side....so, I stand corrected! Anyway...looks like I've opened a complete new can of worms...see what you've gone and done now Chris?????

...and...I'll stand on what I said, and fil concurred with...ALL rounds must count...unless, that is, there's a foreign round and I decide not to attend....OH GAWD...its a bleedin' NIGHTMARE!

I'm signing off the subject now and sitting back to watch the exchange of ammo!

Andy #99

The idea of say 6 out of 7 results counting goes back years and I think was even in F1 until the early 60s.

This situation is realy aimed at hefact that you can have a DNF and your season is finished. I our case it would allow someone to be on holiday or have to do something with the family and still bein with a chance of going for a pot at the end of the year.

Remember at present it is an idea and not a definate