The Forum should be kept public, if we start asking people to pay £25 to access the forum just to ask Ducati owners opinions on what to look for when buy a second hand Ducati then what kind of impression will that leave.
As for buying an selling on the board.. So bloody what. If someone is able to offer a good deal well Yippee i say.

I think you missed 'more' out of that.

But - trust me on this - at any particular time the consumer is paying for the advertising. In the long term loads of advertising and increases in production may give rise to cheaper methods of production and lower prices for the consumer.

But it might take a while and also it might not happen at all. Carbon fibre, with the continued demand from the American Military and Boeing together with the sudden insatiable demand from Airbus Industries, might be a case in point.

I think all these recent posts are all pretty much in agreement. And I agree with them.

There is no such thing as 'uncensored'. As with all these things there is always a line to be drawn. It is just a question of where it is drawn, who draws it and who enforces it and how!!

sandbar
www.sandbarcomposites.co.uk

.

Mr C, there is no question about a charge to access the website. It won't happen. I could name a few sites which do. We prefer the open to all method.

Traders pay to advertise in Pronto, so why should the website be anything differant? The website costs the club money to run, so why not as a club make some revenue to help pay for it? We're not talking about members advertising a bit of bling, or a part they or bike they no longer require.

To be honest, Jools comments best sum up the subject in both his posts above.

Locking the Market Place section to paid up members only seems to be a pretty attractive looking way to go. This would not detract anyone from view/posting the rest of the forum and would still encourage new and prospective members to take part. Anything posted "for sale" or "wanted" outside of this simply gets deleted.

The only thing I could see stopping this is the sale of bikes, which may be a lure to new or potential members. Maybe sectioning the Parts/Accessories/General from the Bikes would help with this? Maybe making the Bikes For Sale viewable to anyone, but only paid up members could post into this section. The other market place sections would stay readable/postable only to members.

Thoughts?

it just worries me Jools, that the 1 group losing out will be the people you are trying to protect, be that either by person XYZ not advertising items at all... or the person having to advertise at a higher cost and the mmebers losing out again.

another solution on one website I use has now adopted the following:

Links permitted in sigs, but advertising banners not except your own business.

Sales from non-members have to be submitted, and they are then placed on the sales section within 3 days of submission.
Paid up members can submit ads direct onto site.

Not saying either of the above would be worth adopting, but might be worth some consideration?

Sorry I did miss “more”

You’ll have to believe me when I say I understand it, I’m responsible for global marketing for a company who are currently running a feasibility study on a carbon fibre swingarm, not for motorcycles but the methods involved are identical. That involves predicting sales, balancing against labour and tooling costs and working out whether to invest in marketing to make it feasible to do off shore, and yes, advertising is an investment.


Advertising does have a “cost” but in most cases its actually a benefit to the consumer, you could add sponsorship into that cost but I’d think most racers here are happy when they find a sponsor, they don’t consider its other consumers paying for that :)

Nowt’s free in life and like you say most here are in agreement, we just need guidelines so its the same for everyone.

How about only paying members can post non commercial ads, ie their own bikes or bits bought they they no longer want. Anyone can then view those ads so its a bigger audience than the other way round of only members can view. Moderate as CK suggested

Anyone can post in wanted but this is moderated prior to the post appearing.

Introduce a commercial banner area on every page of the site which is paid for on small monthly payments by commercial business, set a contention ratio for those banners, provide software to allow advertisers to view the views and click through and change their own banners so it takes little management?? it also means the advertiser gets a higher profile placement. if needed run 2 sizes with different pricing structures.

no commercial adverts in sigs, by commercial I'll clarify - for profit or gain, selling bits you've bought and now don't want rarely results in profit, buying stuff with the intention of selling it or a service for profit is.

recommendations in sigs allowed - by that its services you feel happy to recommend to other members, set a limit of say 2, no images or logos on this allowed.

I'm totally against altering the rules, the MAJORITY of people, members or not, do not abuse the forum.
You are talking about altering the rules because of the VERY SMALL numbers who do take liberty's and by doing that the MAJORITY will suffer.

I usually try and keep out of these discussions, for obvious reasons, but as i've been mentioned let me try and get my point of view over.

Firstly, from a "members" point of view.

I've been a member of this club longer than i've been making a living from working on Ducatis.
I've always posted, or tried to post, on the message board as "Nelly". I joined this club, and have remained so, because of the passion I hold for the marque. This club and the people who make up the club, hold and portray my personal views and passions of the marque in the closest way of the other clubs available to me and that's why I remain loyal to the DSC.
Although unwritten, I "know" the rules. Those of the board, the club and in general those relating to common sense and politeness.
I abide by them as much as possible. Once I kicked Cornerspeed into existence, it became more difficult, but I believe I do the best I can. I've over stepped the mark once but it got sorted in an adult manner and it's now history.
Should the fact that I have day to day experience of Ducati and their problems stop me from posting? I personally don't think so. The regular board members know full well what I do, but a newbie may not, so what's the problem with helping out? If that's advertising, because my sig carries a link, then let me know and I'll bite my tongue and stick to taking the pi55 and having a laugh. Actually, i'd more than likely pull my sig :)
So as not to appear hypocritical I've bitten my tongue on several occasions when I've known full well that a post is from a trader selling stuff on here. I'd love to join in with some of the posts, especially from the maestro who is JPM, to voice my opinion on what is a blatant **** take. As Jools said, it's the perfect platform. Virtually 100% of the target audience will be interested to some extent in what you're selling. Why shouldn't it be paid for?

From a traders point of view.

I started Cornerspeed for the same reasons as I joined the club. It was a massive gamble but I had to give it a shot. It was my lifelong dream.
I'll be the first to stand up and state that without the support I got and still get from this club and it's members it would have been far more difficult, maybe even have failed.
I don't see myself as some big hitting entrapaneur. I do what I do because I love doing it. I work hard and with a bit of luck every now and then things are coming together. I learn every day and one thing I know is that advertising costs. Directly, or indirectly.
For me, this club is the best advertising I can get and whilst the personal recomendations I get from members/customers are essentially FOC, I feel I have a moral obligation to give something back. I do this with my membership and my advert in Pronto. I give up as much advice and help as I can, but that's primarily because I can and that I want to, but if it's seen as adding value to the club for it's members then so be it.
As mentioned, I also offer a discount to paid up members. I don't have accurate records of what this is worth but it was in excess of £4000 last year. Yep, that's £4k out of my pocket in discounts on servicing, P&P etc. I've even suggested new customers sign up to the club so they get their £30 or so off a service. Why? Because it helps the club and enables me to put something back.
Look at what this club has done in the past few years. How much it has grown. What it provides. Why shouldn't traders be charged for advertising on here? Beats me. IMO, if you're in the market for selling product to Ducati owners then there isn't a better place in the UK, possibly even Europe and further afield to do it. I've sold product to Spain, Sweden, Holland, France even the US and that's without even really trying.
I know I couldn't even begin to put a value on that kind of advertising.

I think the webteam do an excellent job of monitoring the site. Most posters know the rules and police them theirselves. The rules, written or unwritten, are there to be upheld and if someone over steps the mark, then pull them up. I personally think they are pretty lenient.
These people do it for nothing, in their own time, and if they start getting personal abuse for doing it then the perputrator deserves to get their post pulled. Tough ****. If there's any doubt, what's wrong with a quick U2U or a mail to check??
I don't see that as censorship...............

Finally, what beats me is why topics like this go on for so long and get so much attention.
BDG started a thread about "what a good job the webteam do"........ how many joined in on that one? Why does it appear to be that everyone wants to have a dig, yet very few want to praise?
Look at the bigger picture and what you have here. It's an amazing place to vist. If that seems too much of an over statement, do a quick check on what your home page is, how often you visit or how many £'s you've saved on bits and trouble shooting ;)

I for one will welcome any rule changes that are brought in by the MT. If I disagree I'll speak up, as Nelly and as Cornerspeed if necessary.
I'm a paid up member of the club and i'm allowed to do that. I'm also a trader that pays into the coffers for my advertising.

As mentioned before, this is not a public forum. It's a club message board that is open to the masses to be able to gleen off whatever knowledge is present on it, and there is masses of it.
It would not exist without the membership of the club and the people that run it.
No one has the right to abuse it or the people that run it. If they do then they get corrected. If they don't like it, then that's their problem.
If you don't like or agree with the rules, then stand up and take an active role in the club. Give up hours of your free time to change it............
I don't have the time, i'll admit it, so i'll respect those that have taken the trouble and work with them. Period.

Nelly. Right on the button, what more could any rational person add or take away from that !!!.

You've balanced the comment regarding what it has cost you in giving discounts, against the benefits you've had from the exposure on the site, that's commercial reality. It is the people who bring nothing to the party yet want all the benefits and to be able to freely abuse whoever they feel inclined to that are the problem.

I'm only too aware, from my own experiences, of how much is involved in making your own business work and I well recall talking about it with you when you were considering having a go. Fair play to you've succeeded and you darn well deserve it !!!

It is good to see that there are still people out there who have some appreciation of how difficult it can be to run the site and the club in general, particularly as you pointed out as it is all voluntary input from people who, like yourself, who have a true passion for the marque.

Well said Nelly, nice to hear it from a DSC supporting trader.

There's a lot of good points in the postings above, many thanks to those who have contributed.

At the recent MT meeting a draft set of advertising rules were proposed as a basis to work on for a new set that will (hopefully) prove more managable than previously.
Rather than putting the detail up here in this early stage and getting a multitude of diverse suggestions, a group of msg board regulars have been asked to contribute (off-line) in preparing the new advert rules. Once this group have sorted out something that is seen as fair and reasonble to members, non-members, private and trade, the topic can be discussed at the forthcoming AGM and implemented shortly after.

If you have any suggestions to make, please continue with this thread - all I am highlighting is that there is work already going on 'behind the scenes' and just because there are very few responses from either MT or Webteam members doesn't mean we're not taking note!

Eamonn.

Don't get me started Neil ;)

thanks Neil.

Some of the ideas posted on this thread will have the affect of increasing the amount of work our unpaid MT will have to do.
As I understand it, the current system is that ads that are in breach of the rules get deleted (sooner or later, when they are spotted). Any alternative to the current system should cause the MT no more work than they currently undertake, in order to be workable.

I can't see a problem with the current level of advertising.

(All just in my opinion, of course.)

NELLY - what a refreshingly sensible statement....not thinking of opening up in London are you - couple of nice stores down here currently looking pretty sorry for themselves?

How can you measure IT! Advertising ;)

pay or not pay!

value to the club !

Big question there!

My advert for the nurburgring experience so far in terms of the club (DSC) as achieved Didley squat;)

as we have never run a trip for the DSC as yet;)


BUT


The year before Last a member of the DSC "Binned" his 998 Bostrom at the RING!

I was down in Italy on a WDW week for JHP

I took a phone call at 7pm from a guy i had never heard of!

By 10pm his bike was recovered and my friend in Germany delivered it back to the uk for a Fraction of the cocst:D

Two simple phone calls from me and the DSC member was out of the ****!

The point here is MY Advertising on here Yields (so Far nothing)

but through my association with the DSC, someone benefited from it!

Advertising for me a sole trader (expensive)

Being fair with the MT (:puzzled:)

Being associated with mav ( priceless);):lol::lol:


well said nelly !;)

I'm a regular user of Rennlist - a Porsche forum.
The rules on there are simple.
If you want to advertise cars or bits of bling as an individual you can do so if you are a paid up member.
If you want to advertise items as a company, you pay to do so.
If non paid up members or companies try to advertise, their thread lasts all of about 10 minutes before it gets "moderated"
It's simple and there's no room for confusion as listed here.......


That's the American approach for businesses whilst for individuals there is the choice of posting items for sale in the members only section - that is paid up members - or in an open section for all to see. If you haven't paid up to support the forum, you can't sell.

Rushjob ! That makes a lot of sence:)

Good reading nelly..a great, balanced view.

As for my own situation, I think most people know I am lucky enough to have a few contacts (i'm NOT a trader !!) and do advertise some DP bits and pieces on the forum from time to time (although as youve probably noticed I have backed off a bit lately after reading some comments on the forum to avoid complicating things).

I'd like to think I am never greedy with the prices I ask, and in the process help some members buy some nice bits for their bikes at sensible money which in turn helps fund my hobby.

If anyone took objection to this, I wouldnt hesitate to stop it and explore other avenues, and would have no bad feeling about it at all.

Suppose its like Jools says, its common sense really..I try not to push my luck and also make every effort to put something back into the club to balance things up a bit (raffle prizes at a club event, prizes for the desmodue series, and sponsorship of a desmodue rider with some bits and bobs are some of the things ive done in the last 12 months).

I'm here first and foremost as a member and enthusiast, but do value the opportunity of hopefully being able to offer something of interest to the members in my sparetime, which as I say, in turn helps me fund my passion.

I'd also like to add that when I initially joined the club, privatley the MT were very constructive and courteous when seeking some clarification on wether I was a trader or not.

I for one would never moan about what they do, even if I didnt agree with it. They obviously put a lot of time and effort into the club, and I think we would all be wise to remember that (apart from that Flanks bloke who does come across as a bit of a to55pot...:lol::lol:)

Cheers
Nat

"cough" there goes all your adverts Del Boy! :lol:

Cheers Rushjob - hope your very helpful post above will avoid a load of folk trying to reinvent the wheel.

Well, first of all I'd like to apologise to the entire club for my recent inconsistent policing of the advertising rule.

I am SO sick of the u2u's and crap that I've gotten, and read in threads, just for policing a rule that was clearly stated on many occasions that I started to become inconsistent with policing it. There's stuff I've seen and not removed because I knew the grief it would cause me and that's not fair to the people who play the game. So for that I apologise - especially to Nelly, WeeJohnnyBee and Shaggy (Tyreman, Wraysbury Tyres).

If any DSC member would like me to stand down from the webteam let me know, by u2u if you'd like to keep it private, and I'll stand down.

Just commit Hari Kari and be done with it Tony!!! ;)

I dont think you bought me a beer at the North West Winter warmer so i'll not miss you! :D;)

Sorry mate, it was a long drive up so I had to drink everything on the way! ;)

I think I left some Whiskey for you, although Scott bought that ...

In fairness Tony the issue is not with the moderators or the webteam it is with the club rules or lack of them hence the significance of what Rushjob put up earlier.

The MT are working on it and I'd be surprised if it wasn't sorted at the AGM - along with a whole shedload more overdue changes :)

As we speak, rules are being looked at. And the plan is to have them ready for the AGM for consultation.

Tony, I know how you feel!

Firstly, what've you got to apologise for?? Neither you or any one else giving up their spare time to "police" the boards owes anyone an apologie.

As for standing down? If you want to then fair enough, but again, if anyone asks you to, then they ought to be prepared to take up the slack IMO.

Here, here

Yep diito


Untill the rules are all sorted you have a difficult job to know what to allow or not.

Stay put TP

Age

I've just caught up with this thread and have to say Nelly, you're a diamond. I knew from very early on in my club membership that you ran Cornerspeed and that lots of the guys used you. However, I never felt that any of your posts providing technical assistance were anything other than those of an expert offering good advice, in the same way as Shazaam or Skidlids would offer advice, expecting nothing in return.

I wholeheartedly agree with your comments about putting something back into the club that you have benefitted from but you've only benefitted because we all know and trust you which, again, is a sign of how a good reputation can flourish under the wing of the DSC. Equally, if you were rubbish, we'd all hear about it, if not overtly, then through the grapevine.

[Edited on 2-2-2006 by Redruth]

So, Nelly, are you gonna ask her out?

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Yeah if that wasn't a blatant come on then I'm mother Theresa:devil:;)

Sorry....was this a sensible discussion???:P

KB - shame on you :lol:

Although, now that you mention it - if only I could play around with those graphicy things I'm sure I could mock up a KB as mother theresa -

Felix - you owe me an apology - which I shall extract next time I see you track side - even if it takes me all evening :devil:

ooo er missus!!!! :D

See...told you it was a come on....

Oh dear, oh dear , oh dear......

See...told you it was a come on.... [/quote]

Shouldn't you be getting a decent night's sleep so that you can teach the next generation how to behave properly (although quite how that's gonna happen I really don't know) :devil::devil::devil::frog:

Hats off to your superior pooter knowledge, as always, Lisa x