Ak ain't here right now dude... it's just me and you...

Question time then...

Describe it in detail, and what you think happend and why ?

Were you on a slow line ? did you change early/late ? could Matey have just cocked up ? was it really that close ?

What rules would you like imposed to make sure it didn't happen again ?

At Oulton i had a fair bit of this where my bike being underpowered compared to the 1000's i simply had to make a few moves that i normally wouldn't make. I was losing 15-20 lengths down the straight after Cascades and sitting on their wheels into the hairpin... What can you do ?

Is it possible you were slow in the corners but using the big horses of the SPS on the straight bits and simply holding the guy up ?

what was the difference between the two... was it the 'contact' ?

following a slower rider, probably peeing all off behind because I didnt want to shove up the inside of him and spoil his day both time...fisrt at the bottom of mountain I had to brake and chnage my kline, nearly ended on the grass, then second over the mountain smacked my knee as they went around the outside (cafe side) right by the cafe and slammed it accross me again bit o shock at a whack on the knee and stand it up braking


anyway, thats old news so no need drag over that again...havent done one since tho but been chatting to Kev about the dsc one this year, like the idea of following him round and getting some advice, think I am fairly quick on the road so need to convert that to the track, maybe just go racing is the best way:rolleye:

[Edited on 28-4-2006 by bradders]

If you have a problem on a trackday speak to the organisers, if you don't how are they gonna know you are not happy??

Yes there should be TDO staff or marshalls watching whats going on but they can't be expected to see everything from every angle.

I've been hit from behind on a day before now causing damage to my bike on a non commercial Trackday, but the rider responsible was good enough to own up and take responsibilty. I was well mad but I was certain it was an error of judgement not some hot headed I'm all right jack on a hot lap riding.

A good TDO makes it 100% clear that there is collective reponsibility for safety on track. If you can't do it safely don't do it.

Sure mistakes happen, sure it can get frustrating behind riders that are slow on corners but fast on the straights but everyone should be there with a mind to enjoy the day and leave uninjured at the end of it.

Ray

Whenever I see threads about bad experiences on track days it reinforces what I already think about them - you're taking a risk that, through no fault of your own, you could end up seriously injured, or worse. And I have to say that DSC days are not necessarily a haven of safety. There will always be riders who want to pass in whatever way they can, rather than worrying about what effect they may be having on the passee. The two most unnerving passes I've experienced were on DSC days. Other than that, I've been on half a dozen days with No Limits and had no trouble whatsoever.

The problem as I see it is that the very act of getting on a fast bike and being shown a track makes some people mentally incapable of riding considerately. Admittedly, they are few and far between but you simply have to be aware of that fact if you're going to do trackdays.

It's still a lot less dangerous than the road and a lot more fun. My biggest fear is being wiped out from behind and I think I'm usually, but not always, on the racing line, maybe not going as fast as people think I should on a 996, but if a rider's good at cornering there should be loads of room to overtake, on the corner or on the straight. If not, stay back till it's safe to pass. An experienced rider putting in a perfectly safe pass can still be intimidating for me and I have to take that into account when deciding whether or not to book trackdays. It's a calculated risk. However, I know the only proper place to ride my bike fast is on the track so, if I'm going to enjoy my riding, that's where I'll have to go.

Simple realy, BACK OFF give the guy space, it is NOT a RACE

Chris.:burn:

Simple realy, BACK OFF give the guy space, it is NOT a RACE

Chris.:burn:

Simple realy, BACK OFF give the guy space, it is NOT a RACE

Chris.:burn:

[Edited on 28-4-2006 by chris.p]

wasn't necessary mate... the gap i just waited for for a lap and a half... it was large enough to get another bike through :)

at least i thought so :) he never complained.

Trackday Concerns
 

I agree will all those raising concerns. The organiser at Oulton last Tuesday read the riot act then subsequently failed to enforce their own rules. In Inters we had 3 red flags out of the 5 sessions I stayed for.

I saw myself: 2 riders touch going into Foulstons chicane, a suspicious crash involving 2 bikes on exit of Hizzys, and was overtaken by an Instructor very closely indeed under a red flag!

Oh and an oil flag when Weeksy's chain broke halfway up Clay Hill. Bless.


Norm.

Heck how did that come up three times:o


I think the message that is trying to be put across is that as a track day, it is supposed to be as SAFE but fast enviroment, well as safe as it can be made, the golden rule should be that YOU are responsible for the rider in fronts safety, a little bit of forethought can save a lot of agro, if you want close passing in the middle of corners etc, get an ACU licence & go racing or do ACU test/practice days, there are plenty about.


Chris.:burn:

i thought the whole idea of trackdays were for people to ride their road bikes/cars/tractors on a race track in a safe and controlled enviroment. im never sure why you need a driving licence and not your v5 ???

i've only done 4 trackdays myself but have spent some hard earned cash on tyrewarmers etc just to get value for money when at a trackday. i wouldnt call myself a racer by any means just a guy who likes to ride as fast and safe as he can that day as i dont want to bin my bike although i feel i ride faster and more dafter when on a local road. at my last day in silverstone last month i deliberately went in the intermiadete group as i thought there would be too many ACU guys using it as a pre season test session so thought it safer to step down a group.

most of my t'days have been with FE and i have no real compaints with their services offered just the amount of people in a group, last august there was over 80 people in the novice group, i was told to go up a group but there was no space in inters so i ended up in the fast group for the afternoon of my first t'day which was a eyeopener but a experience i was happy with and learnt from especially as i was quicker through the corners than most of the gsxr1000 boys there that day.

going back to weeksy point about what TDO to use for me is a choice of dates and prices. most of mine have to be sundays or bank holidays and within a sensible distance from home. i'd like to try a no-limits day but can never find a date to suit me and a mate, FE seem to have the market share with a trackday nearly everyday now through the summer, the cirucit owners are obviously happy with them or they wouldnt give them the circuits

as for the dsc days i'd love to do cadwell but its a 3 day trip for me and well over £100 in juice for the car alone let alone all the other expenses. if all dsc days were opened to members with non duke bikes you may get more people going as im sure theres more members like myself who'd like to do more but appreciate the 50% of the fuel costs a mate brings.

well i cant think of anything else to add :burn:

Oi Deej, i need someone to split the juice with and van hire with for Cadwell.

yeah but i still got the 150 miles each way to you and with what happened to my van at silverstone i doubt it'll make 1.5 miles without breaking down, if things change in the next few months then i'll definetly give you a shout, are you doing 1 or 2 days up there

2 days mate. Van we can hire and split 50-50.

ive been doing trackdays for about 4 years on suzuki gsxr 1000 aprilia rs250 no problems apart from 1 crash at cadwell no one else involved just me and the tyre wall i would love to do more track days on my 999r but for some reason people seem to think they can only go home happy if they can pass a ducati and they dont seem to care about their own safty let alone mine :mad:

Clint,

You might well have a point there, rarely get peeps carving up the inside going into or on a corner on me old '96 CBR6 road bike, different story on the 998, just as well I take the mirrors off or they'd get knocked off!!

Ray

Ah, perhaps I didn't make myself clear. When I said "on the continent", I meant trackdays organised by English companies at foreign tracks where most of the riders are also English. With respect to continental days with continental riders then I agree with you. The local mad-men turn up! I've done a very scary day at Spa...

i just don't get it you know lads....

Local mad men ? what do you mean? they were quick ? Jesus you can't get much quicker than some of the UK riders.... you play with club racers and BSB class racers, they will be going quick.

I've had 1 time in god knows how many trackdays of a person overtaking me a little close in middle of corner.... that's 1 time in serveral thousand laps.

If you're getting people stuffing you every corner, maybe you're in the wrong group ? or the wrong game altogether ?

Track riding IMO is about allowing for closer overtaking etc by removing completely all the other factors to consider like traffic, walls and kerbs etc...

I honestly don't see where most of you are coming from....

There's so much open to interpretation on this topic,

one persons "near miss" is anothers "close pass no problem"

One persons "circuit nutter" is anothers "quick rider"

One thing that isn't open to question is when contact is made.


Different riders react differently, the same pass on different riders can cause different reactions........."hmmm, quick rider" to "shite I need to pick the bike up and head for the gravel"

The crux is knowing how the person you are passing is going to react, i.e. are your actions gonna cause a problem for the person you are overtaking. Difficult, but not impossible and where you choose to pass and how close is a big factor IMHO,


Ray

Agree totally mate... bbut don't you think some people are assuming the guy who made the contact or even nearly did in the examples above are giving the impression that they thought the guy was in the wrong automatically and should be thrown off..

People make mistakes, it's that simple... you come into a corner and think 'OK, i've got a huge gap here' then the guy on your outside lets off the brakes and turns in 10m earlier than he did the previous lap.... well, obviously you've then got no-where to go....

As for the people T-boned.... Jesus, at times it's the easiest mistake ever to miss braking points, you wouldn't believe how many BSB boys were doing this at Fulstons last week at Oulton. It's all about trying to get a little bit closer to the limit.

Interesting discussion-from a TDO's point of view-if no one tells me they are having a problem with someone overtaking-I won't know.
So the rules for Cadwell this year are clear-if you are having a problem-tell me or JohnnyB or one of the other instructors and if possible we will sort it. If you cannot identify the culprit it will be very difficult to do anything about it-and I know that on the Monday we will be riding dukes so that's another problem. In the 6 trackdays I have run so far for the club, and the other part days we have organised, I have had very few people approach me to say others are giving them problems. There were a couple of close passes last year with the DD boys that were reported-which is why I have said that this year they are all in the fast group if riding their DD bikes. It's your club and your trackday so hopefully everyone will treat others the way they would wish to be treated.

Here endeth the lesson-phew!

John

John,

how about doubling up on the Marshalls, as 'watchers' and large numbers on fronts of bikes to allow 'reporting' from the Marshalls ?

Increase the number of instructors with strict instructions not to 'ride and teach' but as 'viewing' type instructors to keep an eye on people ?

Monty,

Might be worth a reminder of this at the briefing - I know No Limits (especially John's!) briefings include this, but pointing out that there's nothing wrong with "having a word" with the instructors on the day about anything you feel uncomfortable with. The instructors can then talk to the perpetrator in confidence, to ensure that they are aware of the problem - perceived or real. This also acts as the first stage of someone getting the boot if they continue to behave like a dick.

I've never heard it put in these terms, so it would be nice if it could be explanied in a "non-grassing-up-your-mates" kind of way!

I dunno, its no fun on a 49bhp DD bike when you have to be in the same group as guys on 170+bhp IL4s on slicks, the speed difference is huge, especially when approaching braking points.
Even when everyone is riding sensibly its scary tipping it in when you know there could be a guy braking from 50mph faster who is aiming at the same spot but with more grip.....

yeah but hes talking about the dsc trackday

im sure most dd'ers wouldnt complain about being in the fast group, yuo are racers after all :roll::roll:

Hello

not sure what to say, as there are alot of good points raised here.
I only started doing track days a couple of years ago, after riding/getting used to the bike on the road (mostly solo riding then on DSC rideouts) To be honest never really gave TD's a thought, but started with Rockingham with the DSC in the wet, and really enjoyed it which was strange, but I kept thinking this would be great in fair weather.

Then went to Cadwell with the DSC and was very nervous, (more so the fact I new I could go as fast as comfortable and many would pass me from all different angles) and for a while kept worring about holding people up. Then I thought as long as I try and take the line that I felt comfortable with (as explained in the briefing. sighting points) the rest of you buggers can go under me or round me, and on many a corner this happened, which for me was a buzz, as I could start to see what lines other people were taking.

I did however have some scarey moments and slowed down to take a breather, but for me personally thats part and parcel. I show respect I get none so be it. . . we do what we do.

The DSC trackdays for me are a must, more so because there are enough instructors within the club to give you advice and instruct, if you need advice ask, if you want to complain . complain make a point!

Outside the DSC well if you dont ask you dont get, in all situations you can get help, and well we all need help:P

I am well aware that we all have different stories to tell, but for me I was very dissapointed that as a club we could not fill the DSC track days.

I would be more than happy just to do DSC trackdays 2/3 a year and continue to go on the occasional ride out even if its raining.

regards


TopiToo

I too was also disappointed in the turn out for DSC trackday, i'm as guilty as the next person as i was only signed up for Cadwell, not Brands or Oulton... BUt it was a real shame.

For me personally it's the fact that non Ducati/DSC bikes are not allowed which stopped me from riding them. Much as i have friends in the DSC, i have more and closer ones outside of it. My TD's are all about the social side of things and was a huge factor in my decision.

Not that i'm saying they should not be DSC/Ducati only, that's a great plan... ut doesn't necessarily fit with eveyones 'ideal'

or fit within everyones costs, for me its more expensive to get to most places than it is to pay for the day so i need a mate to share fuel costs

You're right, Mr.trackday bod takes offence at your pass and then rides beyond his limit trying to keep up or pass back then makes a mistake.
I'm not saying all racers are fast but on the whole they are quicker than trackdayers, the trackdayers then try and keep up with predictable results :(