8 laps seems to take me an eternity but I usually only get 7 because Shep laps me!
Now for the serious bit.
I'm very new to racing and this series but I've paid my money so I'll put my view out.
I chose to start racing in the DD class mainly because of the relitive low cost involved, I'm sure there are plenty of others who did the same. If people are talking of changing bikes then I for one will throw the towel in, it was hard enough convincing the other half that £1850 on a bike that gets ridden 20ish times a year was worth it. If changes are to be made to rules and regs I can cope with that, as long as it's still OK to ride last year's bikes.
I'm no petrol head, all this talk of ignitors, pistons and pick ups means Jack **** to me so any changes will be done by a garage at a cost, the difference between H and ZR rated tyres will be measured in £s not seconds by me. There are quite a few of us who do this racing purely for the enjoyment and crack, not necessarily points or shiny egg cups (got enough of them with plastic footballers and darts players on).
I'm never going to be breathing down Shep or Tim's necks at the front but I hope to be having a bloody good laugh scrapping for 12th with Kenny or Coxy (no offence guys) in a few season's time, as long as I can still turn out on my Badger. What I'm asking is that us budget riders (ie us who simply can't afford to spend 3 days at Pembrey) are considered in any rule ammendments.
Apologies for being uneducated and ignorant in the make up of our trusty steeds but I don't want my first season to also be my last.

and that's what it's all about. :)

I agree also, Chris Bushell saying they should be phased out by 2011. FFS they are still racing 50 year old Manx Nortons.

If I'm unfortunate enough to break a piston I will find a pair at 80mm diameter and hopefully the right height. As long as its flat on the top why should I have to pay Ducati prices. Who would know anyway.

All this talk of you can/can't do this or the other. Nothing is policed. The speeds of the bikes on the straight at Cadwell and Castle Combe were virtually identical. If you back off the throttle a little and another rider doesn't you will lose several yards.

So sensible rules open things up to get pattern parts if poss, brainstorm any changes before implementing and lets just have fun on the track. :D

Steve I also had a good look around at the start of the season when riders were saying they were finding it hard to source pistons, there are a few Hi comp kits around like the FBF ones but that would give anyone using them an advantage.

I eventually came to the conclusion that we would need to find a company that would make replicas of the originals after all they do it for older Ducatis and other makes of bikes.
I ended up with a short list of companies that may be worth approaching and JE was one of them.

I was campaigning a 583 before class B existed partly to prove that you didn't need the exspense of 620s or 675cc bore kits to get out on the track and have fun.

I would hate to see class B die off which is why I think the rules on Pistons in Class B needs looking at so that an alternative source can be used without adding to riders costs and without changing the performance characteristics of the engine.

So if anybody has any contacts at companies that can make pistons I'm all ears.
I know Phil (Ghost) has been looking into it as I had a PM from him a while back asking after dimensions, trouble was I didn't have any 583 pistons about only 620 ones or the ones from Scooter916's old 675 kit

Absolutely. You hit the nail on the head as they say.

To clarify my earlier comment, I was only suggesting ceasing with the 583 bikes if it became no longer viable to get parts for them. The point about Manx Nortons is valid - I race a 52 year old Ducati single! The difference with these bikes is that there is a parts and engineering network to allow us to re-build them - this is not yet properly in pace for these "new" bikes.

Yes, but I was talking to one of the riders at Donington who had just spent £8k on an engine.... not quite DD budget methinks!

I have a piston if someone wants to measure it up. Unless i can do it for you

[quote=Ghost] Chris Bushell saying they should be phased out by 2011. FFS they are still racing 50 year old Manx Nortons.

I am new to the DD this year, but have been racing classics for the last 4/5 years. I went into that class on what they view as a budget bike, a Honda 350 K4. Price of a good standard bike, 4k, in a Drixton or TAB frame upwards of 6K. Parts for engines, head work, minimum of 1k a year running cost. To build a standard engine into a race one, 3k minimum. I ended up demanding more power to stay in the top 3, more and more expence.

As for Nortons, Matchless G50's, Aermacchi's don't go there. 2-3k a year for minimal work on the engines, complete replica bikes are 20K and upwards. Tyres are £140 for a rear only!!!! The top guys are changing them for every meeting.

This market is boyant as there are a number on engineering firms who have cornered the market for parts, engine and ignition, all are replica's of the original. As they have cornered the market, there prices reflect this!!!!!

My point is any older bikes can be run competatively, but they are expensive. Also there are continual problems with what is eligible and what is not.

To be fair to all, regs need to be in place early, and as a club stick together to try to get the best deal possible for parts and tyres. These then become the only replacements allowed for OEM parts, and hopefully a deal can be done to buys these at a discounted price for club members.

That keeps everyone out there to have fun

See you all at Pembrey and Cadwell.

[quote=steve41]
An interesting and thought provoking post. My old Ducati singles consume about £500 on a minor overhaul and £1K for a major one and that is just in std not racing form. The main thing is that I can get most of the parts from suppliers, most of whom are not in the UK.

If enough people wish to race the 583s then let them continue - but keep the rules on modifications tight, so that there is an element of cost control.

To go back to the timing question, I think even if all the standard electrical parts are required by the 2010 rules to be retained, it's still too easy to cheat by filing the trigger on the flywheel and advancing the ignition that way (albeit by a fixed amount throughout the rev range).

I think that the standard ignition architecture should be retained, but advance curve and timing trigger should be free, even in Class B. This would allow any igniter boxes to be fitted, and the trigger could be played with.

Getting performance gains from this rule would depend on careful work and testing more than ££, so it fits with the DD ethos.

EDIT: I believe that the thing that stops 583's performing is the piston/valve/head combination, so pursuing performance via timing alone is going to produce small results. It would be interesting to do some research...

Provided you know how to do it as opposed to have to pay someone else to do it

Please don't change the rules for next year too much!

I'm in the process of getting a bike sorted for next season and it's costing a small fortune as it is! I don't want to have to make changes as well.

Well thats certainly in keeping with the DD ethos
And as I have said if you can' t Police a rule/regulation then what value does that rule/regulation have.

Regarding the Race Bikes I can't see the need for many rule changes for next season, just thining out worthless ones, doing away with ones already covered by the ACU Handbook and allowing the adoption of Non OEM REPLICA parts such as Pistons for 583s especially if we could arrange an approved supplier.

One rule I am expecting the ACU to change at some point in the next few years is the Noise level, I'd expect a reduction of 3dB at some point. I recall last time it happened and all race cans seemed to grow 2" in length. we will just have to wait and see on that front.

Spot on, the valves and ports, together with the combustion chamber are too small to pull enough gas through to make more than about 52bhp. Fitting 620 heads and pistons apparently makes them fly!

So...

Tyres - leave it
Pistons - copies of OE
CDIs - leave it

Job done.

Move on and race then....it was easier in 2007!:lol:

So much said with so few words. Genius.

Phil's got a old pair of pistons of mine from a 583 (1996)

Maybe worth getting some price's for je etc to see if they will manufacture a patch so we can buy them in pairs.. The last time a bought a pair of 900ss
pistons they were £150 c/w rings pins and clips..
They will be better quality and tolerence and no performance gains should be had due to the worm hole valve size's.
We also have a max BHP limit so that should stop any tuning for power gains.
Also you can buy very cheap ignition module to suite the 2v carby dukes and
are much much cheaper than the Duke Ignitor modules.
But you can adjust curve and advance but as i said we do have a bhp limit.

The disc rule change has worked well this season and used brembo/duke discs
have plummeted in value for some reason :)

Cracking frames
The SS carby frames are getting rare to buy now and as you know mine cracked around the headstock but thankfully a coded welder repaired it (Ghost)
Maybe other riders need to be aware of this known weak spot on the ss frame
for safety reasons because powder coating can hide this ?

Just my thoughts :)

583 Pistons....

I seem to remember Nogs' saying something about pistons being available from Canada....at a fairly reasonable price even with the postage involved.

Maybe he'll be along with more info'....

Meanwhile I can't seem a problem in getting pistons matched/made up. Many years ago I had a piston crack, in a Volvo truck, on the way back from the Middle East. The Turks' spanner monkeys' turned one down from solid, found rings to the correct bore, machined the grooves and then put it all back together.

There was less than 5 grams difference between the copy and OEM....so if all else fails we could order some from Istanbul:D :D :D

My thoughts on pistons so far, I found that Rover K series 1.8, were flat topped, 80mm o/d, gudgeon pin the correct diameter.............but the deck height is too short, (height above the pin to piston crown).

But if needs be I would modify them and make them work. I will keep looking as there must be something about with the dimensions we require.

It hasn't been a priority as yet hopefully won't be.

Hi Phil...

My old 500/4 SOHC Honda race engine used Kawasaki pistons....

The gudgeon pin holes were 2mm smaller and had to be re-machined and the valve recesses recut 0.5mm deeper, then they were perfect....plus a 1.5 raise in compression. :cool: Worked well with the Joy (Isle of Man profile) cam and the close ratio box.

If I remember rightly the dyno-read-out (still got it somewhere) was 71bhp ATBW

So there's always "something" out there, its just a question of satisfying the compliance police :D :D

So all in all 583's are here to stay.....for the forseeable future

For me they should be and I would think most others want to race them. I'm getting too old for anything faster anyway.:eek:

These suit me fine. :D

i dont know about anything faster,they still hurt when you come off or get knocked off!!apart from the people in the paddock,the apealing thing to me about dd racing was the regs keeping the racing close ,ie rider skill notpocket money,for my ten pence worth (gone metric now)i would like to propose that more emphasis be put on the horsepower limit than what you actually put on the engine to achieve it,those that like to tinker may find ways of acheiving more usable power range,/delivery but we would still all be limited to say 53 bhp. at the moment we are moving into a scenario that budget racing is becoming expensive ie spend £300 on barrels and pistons or run with a lower bhp,so it doesnt matter what pistons,igniters,timing settings you use but be prepared to spend an agreed amount say twice a year un anounced to have your bike dyno tested,this negates the problems of having to stump up for an appeal ,acusations etc which is damaging to the paddock, after all i am sure dynojet kits,air filters and open pipes (all legal) are far more effective than ignition timing.
now just a quickie on tyres i was one of the infamous four on z rated tyres at castle coombe-for which i apologise but ignorance is no defence !! i have managed to build a monster and recently run it at mallory on 2nd hand h rated tyres and ran 3 seconds quicker than my best race time !! so my thoughts are a fresher engine /setup is far more effective than a miniscule tyre issue,however tyre safety must be paramountand we should be able to rely on manufacturers compliance ,whoever they are,but i do miss the bridgestone /michelin battles of the old moto gp days .anyway i have run out big words now ,and as a novice running around at the back i just enjoy the oprtunity to race ,and at least i aired my unqualified thoughts. cheers phil
ps attaced pick of the new class b 96

new - old engines?
 

My £300 ebay second hand engine seems to be o.k. without spending time & money rebuilding. But... it does look like it spent the last 5 years at the bottom of a lake!

they never blow up anyway, do they?

Matt #72

Well not racing in DD next year means I have no axe to grind regarding tyres, but Maxxis, whose product has been tested as you all know, by some Class B midfielders and Sam West, the Championship leader ( who would change tomorrow if he could ), who want to put a deal forward that offers the letter of suitability that the club wants, pairs of freely available, ZR rated tyres to participating riders for £100 a pair, donate 2 pairs of tyres at each round as prizes, donate all the cups and trophies for the podium places for the full season, and work out a way to get the tyres to the tracks and fit them. But there is a wall of resistance to keep the series using a tyre from a manufacturer that gives bugger all to those riding in the series, that still insists we advertise their product on the bikes. So PLEASE, dont lets have talk about keeping the series economical when the tyre costs could be slashed in an instant but WONT be.

No one has seen the other letter yet from that Pirelli company. Well I say no one, but lets make it available for all to see.

As one of the CC naughty boys I have changed my ZRs to Hs and will be pretty miffed if we're to change but if it means safer and more cost effective racing then I like this Maxxis idea.
Pair of hardly used Hs anyone?

FREE THE CC4, we're just stupid not cheats!

:devil: Its an easy error, tread pattern is the same, no one seems to know why ZR were allowed then suddenly they were not. Possibly they are easier to get hold of from anywhere.

Not ridden on maxxis yet!

I have done various TD's with Ghost this year and the last one at Pembrey
Phil didn't have problems getting heat into the tyres and the grip looked good
while my diablos moved around alot trying to stay with Phil.

Iv'e seen plenty of ZR rated tyres fitted to slower lighter race bikes and on the road :confused:

class b
 

on my class b bike the h rated tyres have been great, just the way i like them, maybe the class a bikes should be aloud a 'grippier' tyre which could help to widen the gap a bit more.

you can ride as fast as you, your bike and your tyres will allow, any faster and you may crash!

Seriously, give it a rest on the tyres.

Is it SO obvious that there is a conspiracy between Pirelli, DSC, Holbeach, New Era, Shell, Marlboro, Ducati and Chris Bushell to make it as hard as possible to buy tyres, they even had to make up a story about a letter of liability. Its been going on for the last 5 years!!

Simply put together an alternate proposal from another supplier, submit via the right channels, in the right way and be done with it.

Maybe?

Wets?

You have only to look at the times from last years Brands meeting to see that the present tyres are good enough for the job at this moment in time.


Chris:burn:

To BOTH Chris'...........Its nothing to do with whether the tyre gives any improvement in performance, but whether EQUAL performance can be had whilst getting a better, cheaper deal that in no way is detrimental to the series but reduces the cost to the participant rider....after all, keeping costs down........thats what the 'powers that be' keep banging on about, isnt it?

David, I was replying to Pauls request for Wets, not any change of tyre manufacturer.
If you add a set of wet's into the equation you will need two sets of wheels, front & rear paddock stands etc, the costs soon mount up.
I have not dissed your request for a differaent make of tyre, as Chris said, get the data, and put it to Gordon, he is the DD RC fella.



Chris:burn:

I just felt that 70-odd posts in and we'd done ECUs, tyre make, 695s, number of rounds etc like we do every year and no one had mentioned wets yet, so I would :lol:

Someone else can bring up the points system, fork mods for Class B, mixed grids, protest procedure etc old chestnuts up!
:devil:

Good point, please preface with:

'In your opinion'

Costs or value - perception is a variable beast.

Who are the mysterious, 'powers that be'?

Up your own chesnuts matey.....and trump you with mi tyre warmers!

Chris,

Well put, there has not been a formal/written request to the RC to consider the choice of tyres that the series might run. There has been a lot of speculation and words on the forum earlier in the season, but that is not a proposal.

Ultimately we are not aware of any racer that is not happy to race on the Pirelli's, in fact they would seem to be suitable for the series under all conditions and the main thing is that the manufacturer has signed off on that.

Yes we could look at wets, but as Chris.P pointed out that increases costs for all involved, not saving costs. With regard to using a "cheaper" tyre, the ultimate decision is not cost but rider safety on track - can anyone show that in any way the Pirelli is lacking in suitability?