wahoo good man

Think that's the same for lots of people and also the reason why we can do ok on trackdays with the big bikes.

Generally the average Joe on his 848 will only outgun me on the straight and by that I mean once the rider is upright enough to feel safe to get the power on. Similarly from a far greater top speed the rider puts on the brakes earlier than I and more progressively.

So it's not necessarily that I am a cornering god that I stay with them all session but their corner entry speed is slower, after all that braking progressively through fear of leaving it too late or asking too much of the front and wasking out.
Then they get on the power later as the belief is cranking it open early is a highside in the making.

Simply put they are only quicker on the middle section of any straight. In my opinion being a racer today on bigger bikes 100bhp+ involves a delicate skill and judgement to crank on the throttle early and help the bike deal with the power and at the other end slam on the stoppers hard initially (get the unsettling of the bike/fork out the way while upright) and then let the bite taper off (releasing the fork slightly) to give exactly the right entry speed at exactly the point you are heading in the corner.

On both sides too early late will ask too much of the tyres and suspension and the Marshalls will be picking up the pieces.
I only feel like this on a DD bike in the wet. I noticed at Mallory that I could be pretty ham fisted and the SS and the 53bhp Is not out to assassinate you a la 1098 racer!

I am planning a trip to watch the guys at Angelsey are you planning to go there?

The rules should be simple, keep it cheap and keep it cheerful.

They're the reasons 90% of us joined the series. I ain't got JHP's knowledge or Bill Gate's bank balance so whatever happens keep class B the same. As Bradders made clear, if it ain't broke don't try an fix it.

I agree, what I think is class B should stay exactly how it is but that class A should be a definite step up / forward. Be a novice in class b a couple of years, get a taste for racing but are too scared/poor for 848 then move into Class A, which I propose to be a 696 cup. I think that 620 and 695 should be eligible but advanced tuning is allowed up to the 696 stock quoted figure.

I don't think power/weight is such a good idea. It's too messy and too much effort. The 695 has the same engine in the older chasis so is cheaper but I think that we should encourage buying the 696 for a one make cup that Ducati might take an interest in.

Those who do class B a couple of years can and want to move up can save up a bit extra and get the later bike but with same entrance fees? The amount peeps spend on powder coating, painting new updated parts at tge end of each season it wouldn't be much more.

Anyone like the sound of a proper 696 cup?

but they would want to do that to a 696 too ;)

must admit I am amazed at the lack of 620 race bieks out there. At one time, it almost had a full grid of its own, and I'm sure in the eraly days there were easily as many A as B, or at least very close. Seems the last 3 years it has fallen off pretty sharply, whereby I think Brands had 7.

Anyone have any concreet ideas why? Maybe we all promote B class because its what most of us race and is fuller? Could simply finding some bikes (!) and promoting A be the way forward? Still a good novice class when you compare to even 400s racing

This topic of updating DD has been debated so many times my own thread on the matter last year gained over a hundred replies.

I for one would not be prepared to go and spend 5k on a 696 to do exactly the same racing. I really do not think DD needs updating in a way that means you have to spend wads of cash. It is meant to be budget racing so lets keep within those guide lines.

The subject of wets/warmers will always raise it's head as many people I have spoken with who show some intrest in DD are put off by the lack of this choice.

What does it matter if there are 7 or 70 A bikes on the grid?

Can we just get on with racing please. :D

if we could get 20 then maybe we can have seperate grids again, plus surely its better to be a champion of 20 than 10 riders (not that I'm in that catergory)

agree with the rest though. Changes recently means suspension is now more adjustable, but the challenge isnt really whats is the bike in A class as such, its getting those in B to move and/or new entrants to go straight into A

and less than 3 weeks now big balls ;)

You would have to look back through the years to see how many people went from B to A, and how many came in from other racing.

Class A could do with a few more riders.

Actually does it really matter if there are only 6 riders in A providing they are having a good time and combined we have a healthy grid???

Mark
:eek:

effectively you have been there and done it (just on a 620) and you joined in when numbers were good. Now, interest is dropping off for A.... I certainly would rather stay in B than go to a 620. However, if we went to a 696 (with an extra 30hp rather than 15hp), with a slightly higher profile, I would start looking for a bike now..... One that could also be competitive in mini twins.

Warmers or not I would be there.

Well was looking to go to snetterton with bradders but been told today at my new work place i wont be able to go :(

That there man, Mr Ronald Jolley, speak much sense.:)

the 620's are already much faster than the 583's, I don't think it could possibly be concidered safe to put them on the same track so they would need their own grid,,, what if there's still only 6 bikes? would that be the end of A's

the difference between a 583 and a 620 is much more than the figures suggest, I've ridden both and there is little comparison.

now I'm a little more confident on track, I'd love to try a fairly sorted one and see how different it really is

Just aint going to work this 696, there may be a few that can go look for one now but there will be more thats all they will be able to do , look.
Take the 848 thing with New Era and run by DSC I think sort off ?? It died a death at our level. Only when it went to BSB did it attract some numbers and then it also attracted some far faster riders than most of our A group. And yes it would totaly spoil the B race ( which is not broke ) if they were on the same grid or if you look at it another way B would spoil the 696 race half way through :lol:
Blimey it expensive enough as it is, lord knows what 848 racing is but I would expect 696 to be not far off as its not just the cost of buying the bike is it.
Personal opinion: Scrap A and just have a clasic bike series ( B ) Full grid cheap racing. If you want to better that, can afford real mans racing its move on and up to another series. :frog:

:ninja:

novel; going back to go forwards....sometimes the best ideas are the simplest

Surely to consider scrapping anything would be a bad thing for any series.
Getting more people to enter must be the answer.

Race 1 at Mallory has 27 finishers
11 A
16 B

Thats only 5 more B than A

So is class A that unpopular?

All,

Just been reading through all the ideas and suggestions, and thought I would put my bit forward. A lot of talk is about rider moving on as well as attracting riders.
As I have said before, both myself and Andy came from Classic racing, which is very competitive but also very expensive. 35k for a Manx Norton, and then you can do 58 sec laps of Mallory if you fancy it!!!! It is a slightly different style of riding to modern bikes, but great fun and I still do it to annoy my bank manager.
The point thou, we both came to the series to enjoy close competitive racing but within a reasonable budget. We were not allowed to join Class B as we both have National Licenses, and have both won club championships, so Class A was the only option.
To race against 1 or 20 people in my opinion is immaterial, so long as you are having a close race and enjoying it, which I think those of us in Class A do.
I already have classic bikes which cost way in excess of what the 620 cost me, but the beauty is that they have all increased in price since buying them, that does'nt happen with modern stuff, so I wouldn’t want to have to buy another one.

Anyway there is my little ramble, leave as is for us in Class A, or if there was to be any change it would need to be where those of us with class A bikes could cheaply modify the bikes to be competitive against something else.

A complete change is not an option for me.

Steve.

I don't know, but I recon it would be cheaper to buy a 696 than to modify a 620 to be competative, unless you know how to do it all yourself and can get cheap parts.

to bring in 696's would make the current A's obsolete, I think it would be a sure way to kill off class A, most of us wouldn't bother changing, how many new riders would it attract?

does anyone know how long the 696's will be current bikes? what's the point of changing to another end of range model?

I really really wish I could suggest a realy good idea that would sort it all out.,,,,


Press ganging?

Let me start by saying I am actually the type of person that DD is looking to attract. I race but not with DD and I race a 583. So I think my point of view is quite pertinant and quite valid, take it on board if you wish.

As I see it the problem you've got and it's a nice problem is DD is a one make series, so effectively you are only ever going to attract mostly Ducati enthusiasts. It's all about marketing DD and you have a very good tool at you disposal the DSC membership. Wether you chose to scrap class A for 695, 696 or even 800SS is immaterial really as it is a one make series, and your audience is limited.

I have started racing this year on a 583 in Mini Twins with W100 and also PDMCC, yes the SVs are faster but it is really my lack of skill not the bike as the 583 at the likes of Anglesey, 3Sisters & Oulton is good enough for mid pack in the right hands. The difference is Mini Twins is open to all makes, so with W100 I get 3 races for £90 or 7 races for £120; with PDMCC I get 6 races for £85. It is cheaper than DD and local.

So back to DD, the reason I didn't start in DD as a first timer it is too costly, you have too many rounds for me spread all over the country. You don't use tyre warmers (not that they matter that much) and you don't use wets; and you have a control tyre. Ok I could join in one or two rounds local to me, I could put up with no tyre warmers, but I like Power Ones and I like wets. So in a nutshell I may try some DD next seaosn I may not, but I know I will be racing with W100, PDMCC and maybe NG next season for sure and it will be on a 583 or even an 800SS.

The DD is fine as it is, but at the outset it was supposed to be a cheap way into racing and actually your not. It is cheaper for me to race with W100 and PDMCC, and simply, that is probably what puts a lot of people off - Cost.

Remember what I said at the start of my post - I am the type of person you should be looking to attract, my opinion is probably the most valid here.

Regards

Paul Lewis
#96 W100, #196 PDMCC

Taking this on board, where are most of the DSC members located geographically so we can make the change next year to run the series with a club that only runs on tracks close to the DSC heartland.

That would reduce the travel costs for most people.

To be honest, things do seem to have picked up a little this year compared to the end of last year. We probably just need to keep our momentum going, and keep getting our name out there.

not sure you can ever pin point a heartland.

cost comparison is interesting - what kind of grids are there at the two mentioned? T

BH if I were local to Mallory, or Anglesey, or a track which has a series centered on it (Knockhill I think also does that) I would probably be racing part of that - not sure if instead of DD tho as the level playing feild (ish ;) ) makes it far more interesting

but thats because I am now a racer - I would not have done that as a fisrt step; DD has given me that already

still say keep it simple: as it is right now

W100 ran a grid of about 26 on 30th May at Anglesey, the twins where eight bikes composed of an 800SS, me, and the other were SV 650s. The rest of the grid was 125 GP, 250 GP and formula 400.

PDMCC ran a grid of 14 mini twins - CB 500, couple of ER6, and the rest SV 650s.

Plus at each club you can run in the Open race, rookie (for me) and pre injected.

of interest, and off thread, what times were you doing on your chosen tyres around A/sey on Monday? Not sure if it was wet or not...

As a way of attracting new riders - Hottrax have some of their classes televised. Not sure of the details but available of the internet - Thinks its 2 wheels TV. Some of Thundersports races are televised.

Would this add extra riders to the grid? Especially class A where they are going to be up front???

With regards to Pauls comments about it being a one make series. I can honestly say I never owned any Italian bikes and until I got my 583 bike(might make me the minority here). I chose DD as a good entry level race series with a great bunch of geezers.Last year it was that but times have moved on and costs are different this year. I have been considering extra races or different class but still want to do DD.

:)

Started the day in the wet at 1:50, by the final race had got it down to 1:34 on my tyres of choice. I know the bike can go a lot faster it is my skill that is holding me up but was running a laptimer on the bike so that helps to focus. I struggle with left handers, why I just don't know oh and right handers :). The winners were at about 1:17 with mid pack around 1:20 to 1:23.

Anyway back on topic, the DD is a great series you just need to know who to market it to and market it properly. I will join it next year hopefully.

Paul

You could drop Anglesey and Pembrey for Silverstone and Donnington.... but that would be dependant upon whatever Hottrax decide to do, and I suspect it is a lot cheaper to run at Pembrey/Anglesey than it is at Silverstone/Donnington.

I quite like the tracks we run at.

As a guide Oulton costs £28k to hire I would expect Donny is the same, and Anglesey is about £18k to hire. But they are building new pits/garages and Tower so it may go up

Good!!!

When we were discussing the "offers on the table" late last year, one of the club offered us a calendar which looked something like this:

Cadwell Park
Cadwell Park
Cadwell Park (Mountain)
Cadwell Park
Mallory
Cadwell Park
Cadwell Park

Now even as someone who loves Cadwell, that wouldn't appeal to me as a race season!

Track selection is one of the big things that dictates the cost, as I'm sure you appreciate, and we are getting a great selection of tracks with Hottrax that is comparable with anything we had with New Era ... maybe with the exception of including Assen!

The formula for DD has always been cost, and will remain a focus going forward. We have discussed many times the "extras" that we could put into DD - tyre warmers, tyre choice, rule changes - but it always turns out that it adds to the cost rather than reducing them.

We also had the opportunity to switch club last year, and thus look to see if we could get better value for money, and Kev did an amazing job of balancing up the cost-per-minute of track-time from ALL the offers we had, and they were all within pennies of each other, so we had no real issues to deal with sacrificing the cost of entry against quality of circuits.

In my opinion, and it is just my opinion for what it's worth, I really don't see any problems in DD. The fact that the riders have any say over things like the rules and direction of the series is something you would not get in any other race series to this degree, that I am aware of.

Maybe the series really isn't broken and doesn't need fixing at all?

From an outsiders perspective your series isn't broke at all it is very successful. Maybe just market it a little bit more, in a focussed way, know who your market is and then offer rookies some incentive.

+1 :)

Yes, I think you're very much right on this point!

We do actually have flyers at race rounds now and we'll pick up on putting out press releases of results to the bike/sport press too as this may help generate more interest.

Wish I hadnt said anything now!

I think the tracks are all good.
Class B is packed.

Just Class A numbers were a bit low and thought that we might be able to inject some renewed interest by adding a alightly more powerful or newer bike.

If for example I finished in the top 3 this year (I know its a very big IF) I would doubt I would stay on next year in B and at the moment I am not sure I would go to A but that could change by the end of the year!

If I am a great deal richer perhaps I will try the 848 challenge, we shall see.

LOl, did you see the Monday 848 race at Thruxton, good luck with that...lol:lol:

Craig

You know what, I was at Silverstone for the opening round and watching from the pit wall I had *exactly* the same thought!!! :lol:

Missed it, only watched Brands. Was it carnage?

nah - just a little crazy ;)

and you would need to do the test days before..... :lol:


If I acheive top 5 (big ask this year!!) I will be looking to move up, if top 10, I could be convinced to go 620 both of course if I could convert mine or sell mine/buy another sorted one for simialr change cost.

think this is where the grwoth will come from, some of us moving up. Not sure if its that different a challenge tho?!

I think there are more issues, such as bike set-up that become increasingly more important as you move away from DD. Most of us could, after a few laps, lap eachothers bikes at roughly the same pace as our own. I am not so sure that would be the case with the 848's.... certainly not if you wanted to be competitive. I think numpties like ourselves would only stand a chance if we rode for a team that knew what they were doing....

Some others might have a better idea, but I would hazard a guess you would realistically need a minimum of 30k to put up a decent show in the 848 challenge (including the bike and travel)

ha ha ha you should have tried mine last year - ask Matt Larrett - he thought it dangerous after 2 laps!!!