for me its clear cut. if i can only be proved 'beyond all reasonable doubt' then its life (proper life)

if if can be proved beyond 'any doubt whatsoever' hang the fukers

For me, there can be no right way of taking the life of another human. Murder is wrong, we all know that, but so is state-sponsored murder. I don't see any situation in which it is right to take a life.

The death penalty is too easy a way out for some people anyway - the likes of Huntley & Co. deserve to suffer for the rest of their lives in prison, not be spared their fate by the state.

What I would say though, is that life really should mean life, let these people rot and suffer for their sins. No release.

Martin

[Edited on 22-3-2006 by Urban996]

:puzzled:I'd make them watch Saints for a season - slower and more painful than hanging,i know i have to pay for the honour:o

Now think about this rationally for a moment, without the emotion involved.

We've been hanging, flogging, drawing and quatering, stoning people to death, maiming and beheading people in some part of the world since time began. Mediaeval methods.

Has it stopped people raping or murdering?

Of course not. You see, as ScottyB said, there is and always will be a certain percentage of people in the world who are either mad or bad. People who have become so dehumanised, either through mental illness or conditioning, that they simply can't control their primal urges to rape, abuse, beat up or murder others. These people will always form the underbelly of civilised society, there will always be a pool of people who the rest of us might view as just plain evil.

So here is the moral dilemma. By definition, we can't do anything about these people unless they commit some form of crime. We certainly can't put people in the gas chamber just because they 'might' cause some harm to sections of our society one day - a bloke called hitler tried that. So we can only act after the event, by which time it's too late for the victim.

Do we kill that person after the event then? What purpose does it serve? It won't stop other people being raped and murdered because there will always be psycopaths and perverts at large in our society. So the only purpose that taking somebody's life away from them serves is that they wouldn't be able to commit a serious crime again.

But then, so does locking them up and melting down the key.

The difference is that while human beings sit as judge and jury, while human beings perform the forensic and DNA tests, there is always room for error, or incompetence, or even plain malice. Look at how many times people in pathology labs, for example, find themselves at the centre of a shock horror investigation because simple 'routine tests' such as cervical smears or cancer tests have been cocked up by supposedly competent and trustworthy people.

Look at the number of high profile cases where a police force has 'fitted up' people who have later proved to be innocent - either because they've seized an opportunity to nail a little scroat that they've wanted to put behind bars for ages, or because there is political or social pressure put upon them for a quick result.

While there is the slightest doubt over any of the evidence, even when a conviction has been secured, you have to retain the chance to put right any mistake that you might make. If you kill someone, that possibility doesn't exist. That is the only way we can truly call ourselves civilised.

And before anybody points a finger accusing me of being a wooly liberal let me tell you a story. I've already posted a thread about what me and my family have had to put up with these last few months.

In October, my wife was attacked in the toilets of a pub in Oxford. Somebody pushed their way into the cubicle just as she had unlocked the door to leave, pushed a black cloth into her face so that she couldn't see who they were, bundled her back into the cubicle and raped her. The cloth was most likely soaked in some form of 'date rape' drug because her recollection of what happened between being pushed back inside and coming round about 20 inutes later is hazy and comes in flashbacks.

The Police haven't got enough to go on and after 3 months investigation decided to put the case on hold and just file it.

Now the thing is, thinking about that days events, I have my own suspicions about a guy that was in the pub talking to her earlier on. In my mind, he did it. I remember his face and I could make it my business to spend all my spare time travelling to Oxford to go on a vigilante hunt for him. I've been training in Karate for the last 4 years and I could probably beat that person to a pulp - maybe even kill him. But what if I get it wrong? What if the person I suspect is completely innocent? What if I get the wrong guy, just someone who looks like him? What does that make me?

Hang 'em and flog 'em is just a knee jerk reaction and, with all due respect, shows a paucity of thought in my opinion

Its only other purpose is revene. Revenge? Where does that get you. I think that people who take up cudgels and shout 'hang em, flog em' on behalf of the victim may not truly understand what the victims of a violent crime might want. Nothing will 'unrape' my wife, nothing will bring back the victims of murder. So what purpose does revenge serve?

Victims truly want a sense of justice that somebody pays for the agony they have wrought, but for me a true life sentence meaning that somebody spends the rest of their life in a barbaric environment where prisoners regualrly get beaten up and have to remember not to drop the soap in the showers is enough.

:(

Blinking heck Jools, that is strong stuff.

I agree with a lot that you have just posted and can see your point which you have put across intelligently and on many parts correctly.

Dont take this the wrong way but are you sure that you wanted to share the actual details of your wifes incident?

I do feel for her as it must have been and probably still is a terrible one. I can see now why it may have impacted or in some way be connected with what she is going through now.:(

Fingers crossed she will be better one day?


DC.:burn:

An eye for an eye, they have no right to any kind of life, no matter how miserable it was made for them - maybe i wouldnt pay so much tax then either.

Thanks DC. Yes we are both sure that getting this stuff out in the open is the best thing and we agreed on that decision last week.

You see, when things like this happen there is a sense of shame from a victim that has done nothing to be ashamed of. So you only tell family and a few very close friends, but then as time goes on you speak about it so much, to so many people, and a wider circle of folks get to know that something is badly wrong either intuitively or because a friend of a friend told them. After a while two things happen. A bit like telling a whopping great lie, this 'guilty' secret lurks about like a big skeleton waiting to fall out of the closet, at the same time it's such an intense thing to happen that you talk about it over and over again with family and friends until, frankly, you can't remember who you've told and to what level of detail. Secondly, you lose your sense of guilt and shame about being a victim because you realise that you have done nothing wrong, and my wife has now become defiant about it.

We decided that it would be a cathartic experience (especially in light of my wifes newly diagnosed MS) to say 'sod it, life's too short to carry around this sort of baggage, let the world know and be damned'. So now we don't have to cart around a skeleton in the closet, it can come into the open, crumble to dust and let the wind blow it away.

When I saw this post I waited untill Jools had made his last post before I replied,The reason for this is, I've known Jools for only about 3-4 years but in that time i've relised that he is one of those people that when he has something to say it's usally worth listening to.

Allthrough i'm basicly for hanging the correct people, I can see jools's point of view and I find myself agreeing with the common-sense he has written.

After talking to Jools on sunday and finding out what He ,his Wife and famliy
have been through in the last months, that the guy can still have the faith he has in mankind is truly amazing.

I have to say Jools you are one TOP bloke and a real bonus for the club

Here,here!
Agreed on all points.

I have the (mis) fortune of being a Prison Office at a CAT A Dispersal(max security) prison,in there we have the WORST of The Worst,and trust me when i tell you that what you hear on the news/read in the papers is normally only half of the sick stuff most of them have done.As Scotty B says,it is a very difficult environment to work in.More so being a father and knowing what they have done to children.I have to remain professional,despite what my views are(which i can't say!).But Just as a thought provoker,did you know it costs approx £47,000 a year per con(sorry inmate/prisoner) to keep them locked up in a maximum security prison.So the cost of keeping the 6 people just sentenced is:

20 years x 6 x £47,000=£5.64 million pounds!!!!!!

MMMmmmmm
:o