Ah man, you guys are getting too complex for me already :lol:
Get a shitty old monster, chuck on some Rennsports/Supercorsa's, race it. I can't be bothered with spare wheels, wets, mod this, mod that.

£4k vs £1k!

Just received Level 1 Clearance from the missus. :D:D:D

Budget for the bike/entry going to be about £2k, so it'll be a bog standard 600SS with Diablo Corsas and a bit of a diet (much like myself!).

Any chance we could make it a combined rider/bike weight limit?? Not convinced I can loose 50kg without surgery.....

Ali

buy 25 of whatever model is decided, competitors pay whatever is cost for the equpment for the year and when you turn up at the race meeting you are allocated one of the bikes then off you go.

I think the idea of keeping it to 600 carby models is pretty much a must, otherwise it's likely to shift into two classes

Those with the money to buy a 620 are also going to have the money for bolt on goodies, wets. etc, etc, etc.

Bikes are drawn at random for each race - keys in the middle style.

All bikes are prepped and maintained by one team of mechanics.

The only problem is where to buy 25 identical machines!

I've already found myself a 600SS for £650.... :D

Here, here, John. All the talk of wets, 620's and so on was starting to put me off the whole idea. I have a very limted budget, and frankly theres little point if at the end of the day the rider with the biggest wallet/smallest family is going to take the laurels every time.... i think most of the people who enter would like to think that they stood at least some chance of scoring a point or two.

i would support all efforts to rule that the bikes on the grid are as simialr as possible - but of course if some spanner-head has the wherewithall to spend long winter evenings tinkering ad tuning then good luck to 'em...

"but of course if some spanner-head has the wherewithall to spend long winter evenings tinkering ad tuning then good luck to 'em"-errr that'll be me then.:lol:
Mind you I already have a little lady that demands much attention and only the finest things in life-like Avgas-at £1.20 a litre and castrol A747-at £17.00 a litre, and that's before we get onto new pistons and rings at 300 miles etc etc. If I go monster racing it will be lucky to get a wipe over with an oily rag and few litres of unleaded.............:lol:

John

The injected really is so much smoother. My 900 carb is very lurchy and after riding CK 1000ie it was a different bike

I disagree with you 100% on that Weeksy - the club is a Ducati club not a Monster club (otherwise we might as well suggest the UKMOC do this) and the idea is that that bikes of a similar engine size compete so all models with that engine should be allowed (Multistrada 620 anyone?).

Also Monty, the 620 engine was introduced for the 2002 model year, so available late 2001. I think you are overestimating the cost - I know of a mate who bought a 620 Monster (not the S version) last year on an 02 plate which cost £2,500 (and that was without haggling and with six month's warranty left) and it was perfect, so if you shop around a year later, should be easy enough to find one for that sort of price. Maybe keep an eye on the UKMOC for sale section...

Very interesting plans!

Which club(s) are being approached to guest the series?

A pal of mine is co-founder of the Bemsee Minitwins series, and I remember the many iterations their rules went through to get something workable. Policing low-cost regulations is tricky - minitwins for example have a bhp limit which was widely critisised at first, but I think they've stuck to it and actually dyno-test the podium-finishers.

Compression ratio - yup, I guess you can check that easily enough.

Standard engine internals - whilst well-meaning, this is impractical to check.

Non-standard wheels - this potentially bumps the cost up by allowing mags; why not restrict to standard? Brakes too, although perhaps a little less to be gained in swapping those

Road-legal tyres + wets = can get by with 2 sets of wheels. IMO this is preferable to moulded-only (=1 set of wheels, as in the Yam past masters class) which is really difficult in the wet.

Addition but not removal of frame material - not sure of the logic here, as you'd have difficulty making any weight saving without compromising integrity here, on the other hand getting rid of a few lugs can be useful when fitting alternative bodywork.

Non-standard induction - whilst this may allow older tackle to be made competitive, surely it opens the door for expensive extra power on later models. This is one thing that _can_ be checked easily, unlike engine internals.

I know it sounds depressingly legalistic, and keeping within the spirit (as well as the letter) of the regs _should_ be the important thing here ... but it's important to have something clear and workable to avoid arguments later on.

One useful thing to consider is granting special dispensation to run a particular machine eg. if the regs said standard induction but someone wanted to run a non-standard older model, that could maybe be allowed on a case-by-case basis if deemed within the spirit of the regs and not unfairly advantaged.

cheers
Andy

Hey I could be up for this - would it be all right just to put monnie 620 badges on my s4r? Sure no-one will notice!!!

So what's it better to get a 600ss or a monnie? Could I get a whole bike ready to race for under a grand?

Must agree though I think it should be bog standard bikes with pipes, rearsets and decent tyres.

Monsters vs ss\'s
 

Dont punish me for saying this but it not the bike its the rider.Just because a bikes got a fairing doesn't mean it goes faster round bends. If you could have seen the monster track day when Natty boy on a 600 was beating and mixing with fast group S4's and S4r's. Let the classes mix.
You'll see who can ride. I dont need a fairing until 120 mph then its just uncomfortable thats all

Albie I think you've got it wrong mate. If I do well it's me, when I go crap it's the bike - simple :lol: :P

I'm happy to run carb's if thats what the MT decide but seeing as Ange will have this bike when I'm not racing it I would prefer to get a 620ie. I may even commute on it a bit instead of the 996.

Apart from adding the bits and pieces to meet ACU regs and trying to gain a bit of ground clearance I think we should keep them as standard as possible - keep the cost down. I do, however, think that people should have the option of running wets if they choose.

Well here's my ten pence worth, with two years of racing a one make seies.

It's a great idea and well done to the MT for trying to get it off the ground, I think you'll struggle to get a full grid, but I'd love to eat my hat.

This will pretty much be limited to current Ducati people - else why would you enter when there are other established series you could do - MZ, CB5, Hornet, SV's - why would one want to race a bike that has the perception of being hard to work on and unreliable. Don't shoot me down, that's what people think.

Which club are we going with? You could link up with New Era in the Hornets and CB500 class as there is room on the grid and I know numbers are diminishing - all cheap racing seems to be going towards SV Minitwins.

Dump the current regs, sorry guys but they've really not been thought through. Despite what ANYONE says, once you're on the grid you want to do the best you can. There are plenty people with money on this site and money wins races. Imagine the scenario and someone will do this....Ohlins shock, damper and fork internals set up by Kais, slipper clutch, rearsets, full titanium exhaust, top spec brakes, 675cc and 80bhp with a perfect curve after hours on the Dyno, dyno jet? powercommander, K&N filter, new super corsas every round, upgraded swing arm, dymags, full fairing, etc etc and that's without going 'internal'. This lot will transform a monster and it'll trash anyone on a standard bike . How are you going to know what people have done internally? People WILL cheat, sorry, but this is racing, not a gentlemens club.

That little lot is the lower end of 600's level expense and lots of time in the garage - who is it aimed at - someone who knows Ducatis well and likes to spend hours fettling or people who want to race? This is mega expensive racing and why only 4 rounds for your money - it doesn't make any sense to me.

Go for Monsters only and not the 620i. Control tyre plus wets. Ground clearence for safety, so risers, (no rearsets) and exhaust changes only, then all you can do is add a race can, belly pan and lock wire. Remove all road gear obviously That's it - we're all on the same CHEAP bike.

I've ridden a Monster on track - great fun up to a point:mad:

Racing a CB500 which is cheaper than even the Monster regs I've suggested above will set you back £6,000 for a season. If you're serious about racing, there are plenty of current CB500 race bikes up for sale at the end of the season. If you want to just have as much fun, but on a Ducati with the DSC, this will be a brilliant series. I really hope it gets off the ground.

I've not decided what I'm racing next year. I may stay with Monty on the TZ (if he still wants me), go back to CB5's, go to Minitwins, or the favourite at the moment, step up to 600's. If I can get on the same grid with my CB500, I'd love to be part of this.

Just my view.

WeeJohnyB

If it's the 620 and 600's, then 600's must be allowed to be modified to compete with the extra 10bhp. So then, really I think it should be 600's only. I can't afford next year to get a 620 and race it. Whole ethos is low cost etc, then 600 option is it really.

Don't think it matters if it's a monster inc or an SS, let rider choose what he prefers. I reckon as well we should ask WJB (as an example) to give extra advice to the novice novices.

Mind you, still not mentioned it to Shazz yet :burn:

Anyone signed up yet? Apart from Tony, whom i trust has got #21 or #12!!



[Edited on 8-10-2004 by flanker]

I've asked for #12. Both because Bayliss currently runs it and because I play inside centre (second 5/8th whatever you want to call it) and the number for that position is 12.

TP - 12 :D (at least I hope so).

:alien:

I would like to do more races than are on offer here, which is why I was interested to hear what skids came up with after speaking to NG. But I think most of you know I was looking to go racing next year regardless - the series I was looking at closely was 400's and minitwins, although I couldn't figure out how to attach the bino's to my visor so I could see everyone up front :(. However, I recognise that the 4 days will keep the costs down for those stretching just to be involved. I wouldn't like to see it put out of reach of those people - keep the grid numbers up as much as possible. Also, IMO the MT has a duty of care to make this accessible to as many members of our club as possible. Accessible racing - GREAT idea from the MT, we just need to refine it. My hearty congratulations for proposing it, fully in the knowledge that it would be debated in this fashion.

[Edited on 8-10-2004 by tp-996]

Race all classes
 

Just race all classes. There wont be much in it I reckon except the 620ie's more hp stock. And points in class like superbikes and privateers.

Indeed, but in those 4 race days, there will be 8 races... Not that bad really. And maybe in 2006 an extra round could be put in?

I think it is fundemental that costs have to be kept low, and bikes run near as standard as possible. Only the obvious safety regs needed. As Tony says, as acccessible as possible to all members, so guys, lets keep it there, lets keep it simple.

I think the class should be monster/ss 600's only, least next season. And as true to standard as possible, only the obvious safety and ACU required mods.

Well said lizzie

£2500 and you should be able to put something on the track.

Although a 675 big bore kit may be allowed it wouldn't be on my shopping list as Streetstocks and Minitwins have a 650 limit and the money for the conversion would be better spent on other mods first.

I'm with WJB on this.

I'm not sure I agree with Lizzie, the Monster is a Ducati and therefore meets with the DSC ethic, the 600SS is only being considered because its a 600 too????

Perhaps as momentum grows with this a poll of who would run a 600SS over a monster could be run. Would someone not compete because they couldn't run a 600SS?

By restricting it to a single make and type it would IMO be closer racing and the point about spares swapping/availability is also well made.

I may well be in a position where I could build a top spec' Monster fitted with all of the best bits that ebay can offer, but I don't want to.

Get a non 620i Monster, get some ground clearance, get some cans (for the sound alone), get it past scrutineering and lets get laughing!!!

Tim:frog:

Thanks Lizzie for your correction, I thought the 620ie had been going longer than that but it said on a website I was looking at that it was introduced in late 2003..............
If you can indeed get a 620ie for £2,500 or less then it removes that argument. The big bore kit won't fit the 620 and was put in to even up the power figures, the 620 also has a 6 speed box (apart from the dark's which still have 5).
We didn't want to limit it to monster's only since the 600SS is a nice bike and is reasonably available-the 620ieSS is however favourite but is a VERY rare beast. Get yourselves an old SS or monster and have some (reasonably) cheap fun. The idea behind having only 4 rounds was again to keep the cost down-4 rounds will cost you about £1,000 with entries, fuel, getting there etc so was felt to be within even a fairly limited budget, and as long as the bikes are not to highly modified they can then be used to get the wife/partner through a bike licence, or even used to commute on. "What did you come to work on today?" "Oh I used my race bike........." How cool is that?? :lol:

John

"The consequences of this is that people of ability but lacking in funds/machinery are going to end up battling for no more than 7th-15th place for example, This is going to make them very very disheartened. "
Ask JohnyB Steve-we have been between 10-15 BHP down all season in GP250's, that's why we are now racing in the 'pre 95' class.

John

Cheapest 620 anything I can find is £3,150 for monster. Way out of my budget.

Having never raced I'm probably asking a dim question, but is there any scope for three races/day? If not, how many practice/qualifying sessions are we looking at?

Finally, if you remove the SS range then you're going to be further penalising the tall/pie-lovin' racers. The spares issue isn't that bad as a large portion of the bike is interchangeable.

Having said that, I'd be in for WJB's solution of a one model series on the grounds it'll be cheaper and probably more fun.

Ali

Ali,

Have a look on here Bike Trader

Do a search on both 600 option, and the monster option, with 600cc for the exact cc. Do it as a national search.

Flanker: Have done but still can't find a 620 for under £3k, only loads of 600s.

Matters not. I'm happier blatting around on a 600 that I don't have a loan for!

WJB's makes a lot of sense. This is an ambitious undertaking. Getting the rules right is critical in containing costs. However, this is very difficult to achieve as Andy relates from the MiniTwins example.

As others have said, it is highly desirable in my mind to have the club attempt such an undertaking. I'll definitely be along to watch and support the races, provided they are not all down south.;)

As WJB says, racing is expensive even when you don't crash as I have plenty of times. My racing season was plenty expensive even when you take the money spent on the bike out of the equation.

If I get out there again next year, it'll be on the bike I got. I can't afford in money or time to run second race bike. However, this series should be aimed at people trying to satisfy a couriosity or to get started in racing. I would be great if it accomplishes that.

Who will host this series?

I have a cheque for £200 burning a hole in my desk....

I'm afraid I know little about this racing mularky but can't wait to give it a go.

I know even less about 600cc 2 valve Ducati's.

But having read what everyone has said and the proposed regs,my laymans opinion is as follows:

Chassis
Why can't we chop off all the unwanted bits?
Change the swing-arm - don't see why not - no idea how that may significantly help me? - so leave it stock
Suspension - regs seem fine to me
Brakes - regs seem ok
Wheels - stock wheels only
Fairings - can you fit one to a monster?
Tyres - control tyres only, supercorsa's or similar - seem to plenty around part worn
Suspension linkage - see swing arm above?
Catch tray - ok
Minimum weight - ok subject to chopping off the odd brackets etc

Engine
Overbores - why? if we're running 600's lets run 600's?
Compression - as regs
Valves etc - as regs
Clutch - as regs
Internals - as regs
Inlet stuff - as regs - I asume that any overkill will be restricted by valves etc.
Exhausts - as regs
Alternator etc - as regs
Fuel - as regs

Riders
all as the regs

So all that leaves me to ask is what would be a more competive beastie - the monster or the SS.

I don't mind which, just hurry up and make your bloody minds up so I can go and buy one before the bargains all go :frog:

The guys and gals who own monsters and ss's must think christmas has come early with us lot about to hit the market place:lol:

as far am i'm concerned this is meant as a stepping stone on from trackdays so very much for virgin racers to dip their toes in therefore cost is obviously an issue. the cheaper it is the more people will be interested and the more likely it will be a success. same goes for bike spec. i will try to give it a go whatever the rules but their is clearly more incentive the more equal the bikes can be. no matter how much someone says "i dont mind coming last" "just want to out there" etc,
it will clearly be somewhat disconcerting going out there spending a fair bit of money knowing you're going to get you arse kicked every meeting.
imho make it as close to standard as posssible as said by others one model, cans and rearset etc if wanted. everything else bog standard.

image the thrill a virgin racer (like myself) would have if he had a genuine chance of a top ten finish in a race or dare i say it a podium. :D

The theory would be SSs on the fast circuits (fairing) and monster on the twisties (slightly better power/weight). As I've already mentioned, some of us would suffer from a slight aerodynamic disadvantage on a monster. :)

I'm sure such concerns pale in comparison to whether you've got a cold, had a good nights sleep, ridden the track before, etc...

How about super stock rules?

I dare say, that even if the rules allow for spending lots of money on the bike, at this level, the only reason you're going to get to get your arse kicked is that you're a riding too slow!

Any ideas as to what tracks it'd be on?

If I do this, I shall have extra padding on my derrière! :frog:

I'll answer a couple of your questions Uncledunnie.

Overbore-this was to even up the 600's with the 620ie-the 620 makes 63bhp, the 600 about 55, so bore the 600 to 675 and voila more horsepower. Restricting the mods by having to have standard valves, cams, inlet ports, heads etc will stop to much money being spent in the pursuit of horsepower.
Chassis-why not cut bits off?-to keep it as standard as possible.

Make your minds up?-go buy a 600monster, you'll be safe then whatever happens.

John

[Edited on 8-10-2004 by Monty]

Tracks:

We are currently negotiating with New Era so it could be on the tracks they run. Since this would be a limited series it wouldn't start until probably May so would most likely be, Cadwell, Mallory, Snetterton and possibly Oulton.

John

Regs say you can add a fairing. so nowt to stop you putting a dustbin on a monster.

Ray

I was planing on fitting a 916 fairing on a monster if thats what comes along at the right price. But I'm not doing anything until the rules are confirmed, after first reading the rules I thought excellent the right way to go racing.

Obviously others don't think so from what I've read, but after all my years in the club racing scene including the CB500s when they were on the BSB race program and with TT proddy rules changing on a yearly basis I can assure you this is a good set of rules.

Forget CB500s they have slowly died a death since there original conception last CB500 Race I saw WJB was 2nd and he was also the last 500 home which is the same amount that started that race. Minitwins runs a tight rule book that favours SV650s effectively making that a one make series.
I like the idea of mixing SS's with Monsters and 600s with 620s, variety adds to the spice of it all.

As for costs lets get real here, tomorrow I will be racing the 748 that I have for sale, I will be in the same race as the CSC 996RS a tuned 998R, well sorted Aprilia RSVs etc, etc.
Now bike is for sale at £2800 basically as I am racing it, you do not need to spend loads to go racing, OK I don't expect to come anywhere but I don't care, I'll be out there racing and If I can finish ahead of the odd bike that should be capable of beating mine then I'll be happy and I will still be learning.

I reckon there a bit too much testerostone around here already :(

Let's go back to the original purpose behind this. One of the main reasons we do trackdays is so that those who are trackday novices can put a toe in the water and get some experience. It's nice that it also appeals to lots more experienced trackdayers and also that it's an enjoyable social event, but those latter things would happen anyway, which leaves the novices happy to go out to play secure in the knowledge that they are 'amongst their own'.

The idea behind this is one step up. It's aimed at people who aren't racers, to give it a go and have some fun. It's about inclusion, not exclusion. Given the level of interest amongst people who have never raced, it seems to be well received. So sorry, WJB and Weeksy and other racers, it's not aimed at you (much as you'd obviously be welcome); you are already quite comfortable with the CB500 or whatever class, racing amongst others who aren't 'your gang'. It's not really about winning it's about getting the experience and if you like it, continue with it or maybe move up to a more 'serious' class.

So I think this is the wrong question:


How about if you phrased the question 'would someone who already has (or even has some other use for) a Monster 620 or a SS600/SS620 and fancies a go then sell their bike and buy a M600 so they could have a go? I very much doubt it. So that would exclude my £2,500 620 Monster riding-mate and a fair number of the possible UKMOC-ers who might be interested. So the cheque already written might have to be torn up.

Now I know booger all about the mods being discussed, though I know the rules have already been given a lot of thought in order to keep the cost down, but it seems to me when there's a fair chance that getting a full grid will be difficult, it would be daft to reduce the potential pool of players.

And anyway, isn't this all about getting your excuses in early ;)

And I reckon it would be much better from an aesthetic point of view to have Monsters v SSs.

Is the series going to be for 1 bike, 1 rider...or is there anything to stop people entering as a team?

So if "Piston Broke Racing" got a bike together with, let's suppose, 4 riders, is there any reason why those folks couldn't just do a couple of races each?

Apart from the fact that those riders wouldn't get the experience of a full series and would remain the greenest of novices, and would probably stand naff all chance of any racing glory, is there anything to stop people doing this if they just want a taste of racing?

Another thought occurs, if sharing bikes was on the cards, how about if like minded people from each DSC region bought, prepared and raced a bike. Maybe you could have a team championship for each region, with a different person on the bike for each race? So, BHC crew against the Essex Boys? Berks Oxon and so on. It would also spread the riding talent around so that people with existing race experience would still have complete novices in the team?

Just a thought, but it would give each region someone to cheer and organise rideouts too.

At the risk of seeming argumentative, I think my question is still a valid one, then we would understand whether this would restrict the numbers or not, wouldn't it?

Phrase it any way you like, the question is still fundamentally the same. If the answers yes, then we include them, if its no, then we don't ?????

I also think from an aesthetic perpsective, just running the same type (Monsters or SSs) would be better.

Seems I'm testosterone charged and argumentative now.!!!;)


OK - Lizzie, to address your "better" question, I'm assuming that the reason that the costs are being kept down is for DSC members to buy (cheaply) a second (or third, fourth etc...) bike for racing and not necessarily to have to sell their main steed to fund a limited racing series. Is this a fair assumption? This bike could alos be used for road use, getting to work etc, but I don't see many selling their 748s, 851s, or the like for a Monnie - do you?

How many people will sell their Monster 620s to get a 600 if the series was restricted to 600s only - not many I'd bet. How many members on this board ride 600 monsters? How many ride 620s?

I'ts open to constructive debate, hence my questioning this.

Perhaps a more important question here is;

Is the objective here to give existing DSC members a race series, or increase DSC membership?:puzzled:

Tim:frog: