I am letting people work it out for themselves, I am only giving another viewpoint.
What I am struggling with is why would you want to race and then put yourself in a position of not being able to win ? Ability aside the whole point of racing is to try and win. By saving money and noy buying warmers/wets you are at a disadvantage that you can't make up.

It would have been better within the rules to have banned warmers and wets and had a road tyre as the control tyre, like some of the other cheap series do. Also I see you have to have a road licence, I can't understand this as I'm sure there may be fans of ducati's out there that may want to do this but don't have a road licence yet they would have to go to the expense of getting one ? I see 80hp mentioned for these bikes but no internal mods allowed, where is the 80hp coming from and who is gonna police the engines for legality ?

I am totally for cheap racing and I like this idea, I just don't think it's the cheap racing you were aiming for, if it was you could have set the rules a lot better :)

It's like a bloody soap opera in here!!

Blah blah blah ...

yeah, neighbours............


bog off ;)

neighbours did give us kylie so maybe some good will come out of this ;)

to sum up we have

organisers saying it will cost £4k
current racers saying it will cost way more to be competitive

You decide who is right :)

If you're just looking at laps per ££ then t/days are better value, but and this is the BUT then fix per ££ and t/days are poor value, just riding round with no reason getting dizzy. Every lap in a race is at 110% and everyone around you wants your piece of tarmac it is one of the most exhilarating things you can do and this series altho not cheap is prob the cheapest way you can race a duc so if you have any doubst just do it :)

The bikes should be close enough that this kind of thing may not make a difference. It comes down to the cost/participation factor - if you desperately want to participate but can't afford tyre warmers, does that stop you from participating?

Ask weeksy - he's planning on doing the TT but knows he won't win it, so I'm guessing he'll be able to tell you the same reasons!


True - my preference would have been to use road legal tyres only, with no wets nor a control tyre (just because I have a mental block on certain tyre makes!).

But then for all the rules this is the only one that I don't like, so it's not enough to stop me participating.


This is, apparently, ACU regulations.


This is not part of the spec for Desmo Due, nor has it ever been. I suggest you read the full rules -
http://www.ducatisportingclub.com/co...Article_ID=570


You obviously haven't read the full rules as yet.
See above.

The whole piont of racing is to try to win - not really, this is club racing, yes it is a good feeling when you win a race but most never will and accept this, it's all about having a good time and if that is scrapping with a couple of others for tenth place and you go home having enjoyed yourself then that'll do for most I would think.
:burn:

My next episode will follow tomorrow, as I was writing a new topic titled "my reasons for wanting to do Desmo Due" when the works PC crashed taking my unsaved Post with it, also got a partial reply for this current Topic saved on the PC at work that I will also post tomorrow if its not out of date by then.

Three years ago I set off in a Land Rover from Mexico, heading for Argentina. Over the following 20 months I blew every penny I had ever saved, which was about double my original budget.

There's no question that I wouldn't have done it if someone had told me that before going, and no question that it'll always be one of the best things I've ever done.

There's more than a hint of the above in entering DesmoDue but, as a species, we're amazingly good at self-deception, so for the moment I'll keep telling myself that £4k is my limit or I'm going to cancel my entry. If I stray towards £5k by this time next year then I'll try not to throw myself under a bus, but take a few measures (no holidays, no house stuff, etc) in order to keep costs under control. If, mid-season, I want new discs then I won't be eating steak for a few weeks. My decision.

As somebody else has already mentioned, most of us are in long trousers these days, and are all too aware of the pain that debt can be. My thanks to those keen to reinforce just how bloody expensive it's likely to get, but I'm glad you weren't here when I was putting my landy on a boat to Mexico!:)

For what it's worth I'd like to put my hand up as one of the not-going-to-win-it-in-the-first-season brigade, but definitely want to be able to push it harder than I can on a track day and not be devastated if I come off.

I hope to god this doesn't put too many people off as I know Chris and the MT have spent a huge amount of time getting the series going and they deserve solid support from those of us entering.

Cheers,

Ali

[Edited on 13-12-2004 by ali]

The topic of this post is bound to polarise opinion, no one wants to set out with an "unrealistic budget" but it happens, so what?? All this hot air including mine is merely opinion as to what and what isn't realistic, what is and isn't possible.

Unfortunately none of us can see into the future, if we could how come we haven't all won the lottery or avoided the acident last week, last month or last year. We can only base our opinion on past experience BUT IMHO don't stop other taking a leap into the unknown, isn't that what racing is about??? Trying to take yerself beyond your previous limits???

If that means taking yer overdraft into the unknown then thats a judgement call that only the individual can make. Been there done that, got the T shirt. Knowing when to give up is another judgement call.

Fine tell them about your experience but yer can't force it down their throat.

A realistic budget?, how much have you got to Spend?? Spent it all?, then stop.

You can plan to your hearts content but you will not spot every OSINTOT going.


Ray

[Edited on 13-12-2004 by Ray]

antonye, not so sure about the ACU and road licence thing, plenty of racers don't have their road licence ? Some aren't even old enough ;)

To whoever is thinking of entering just do it regardless of what anyone says about cost, you'll wonder why you didn't do it years ago :)

well there's a lot of food for thought on this thread, and thanks to weeksy and the couch driver for your views chaps, I do respect your opinions.

If I go ahead with this then for me it'll certainly be a case of stick to the budget in order to meet the mortgage payments! I don't want to go there aiming to win cos I know there's not a hope in hell that I will, but will just set a realistic target for each meet based on who I am and what I've got. Getting that extra place ain't worth giving up eating for!

It'd be just a toe in the water this time, and as for getting serious in the future... well, we'll see.

Have to go now, I have a sponsors meeting to attend :P

Bloody hell!-leave you lot for a day and look what you get up to..........................:o

To answer some points:

Weeksy is just trying to put across his viewpoint that it is going to cost-I think everyone who enters KNOWS it is going to cost-there just seems to be a disagreement as to how much-well the answer is-NO-ONE-KNOWS YET!
AND-it will be different for everyone depending on so many factors that it is impossible to calculate.
Some things however we can calculate.
New Era have said that they will try to keep race entry fees down to £100-so 6 events, £600
Fuel-if you use more than 3 gallons per event you REALLY need to get your fueling checked-so say £15/event so £90 total.
Tyres-there is a possibility that we may use a control tyre(Bridgestone)-no decisions yet. I don't see anyone really being able to use the same set for the whole season but worst case would be 3 sets, and more likely 2 sets I would think so say £400.
All of the events are 1 day with the exception of the first where we have a novice practice arranged at Cadwell on the Saturday at the end of racing. I personally don't see a need to book the practice days since these are usually used to set the bike up and there isn't that much you can do to a 600.
As to sleeping in a tent-well I did it with Johnny B at the beginning of this year and providing your tent is ok it's not too bad-it's only one night after all. You can get a big party tent for £200 which you can get at least 4 bikes in so that's £50 each between 4 of you.
Fuel to get to each track is variable depending on what you drive and where you live, food at the track?-well you eat at home don't you so you have to buy it anyway so basically no cost.
SO, entries, fuel, tyres, food and 1/4 of a party tent come to less than £1,500-the bike is up to you........

"especially at my age, 44 a week tomorrow."-a mere youngster Kev-I'm 56!

"Look at it from this perspective... we have 2 riders... of equal ability on equal bikes.

Rider 1 spends the night before in a tent freezing cold, gets up for a cold wash and a crappy cup of tea from the van.... he then gets into his freezing cold leathers and stumbles off to get onto the bike that's covered in dew from the night before.

Rider 2 has spent the night in his caravan in a bed, he gets up, has a shower, a bowl of porridge and climbs into his nice warm leathers, gets onto his lovely dry bike and shoots off on his brand new and fully heated tyres....."

Am i getting anywhere ??? weeksy-Steve if rider 1 is Wee Johnny B rider 2 gets his backside handed to him-he doesn't sleep very much, doesn't eat breakfast, and is STILL dam fast and that's on an old shed of a CB500

"antonye, not so sure about the ACU and road licence thing, plenty of racers don't have their road licence ? Some aren't even old enough"-deliberate policy of ours to keep it to current road riding members and prevent someone entering a 4 stone 14 year old minimoto champion.

"To whoever is thinking of entering just do it regardless of what anyone says about cost, you'll wonder why you didn't do it years ago" and that is about the most sensible piece of advice that's been posted here all day...........

John

[Edited on 13-12-2004 by Monty]

Good grief !

Know i'm not the only one who can see this from both sides of the fence here but ...

This year I was involved in minitwin racing - originally supposed to be entry level and on the whole that was the intention i believe with restrictions to try to ensure it wasn't money that mattered in the bhp stakes. A more modern bike and readily available spares. A good class and with Bemsee very good entries. And no it didn't matter if your in a motorhome or a caravan and old truck - what mattered was the riders, their attendance and determination to race ( please read race not win) The outlay for the year was in excess of 12k i'd say when all was totalled up including bike and mods required and all the kit-genny warmers even down to a slick operation that meant rider got to grid at the very last minute to keep tyres warm. I would say that little expense was spared and even more money thrown at it wouldn't have achieved much better results.

On the other hand - I wish to give this series a go as it suits my bike or a bike I would choose to ride on the track. I would have loved to have took my 600 on the track in with the twins last year but it wouldn't have been viable really.

This series gives me the chance to race my older bike or an older 600ss. I don't care if someone buys a 620 and throws 6k at it for the year. It certainly won't mean that their money is any better than mine-nor that they will enjoy it more-nor that they will get better results than me and given that seeing the amount spent last year and the effort put in by all the team i figure i'm fairly qualified to answer from my own point of view and from the point of view of others here who see the series for what it is.

I understand where you are coming from Weeksy- but most people see it for what it is and anyone who needs the answers can pick 2 figures from this thread and many others with a bit of research into racing forums and come up with a middle figure 'they' think they can do it for or are prepared to spend.

I think there are very few adrenalin 'sports' or 'hobbies' you could pick where the initial outlay would be less than 2-3k and in my book it would be money well spent for the experience of being on the track on perfectly capable bike which wouldn't really fit into other catagories.

I personally have heard many people say how they'd love to race a monster or 600ss ( not sure about the multistrudle but each to their own) If the class remains as intended and space can be found for it then I see no reason why it won't be successful enough to continue in years to come. There is a need, I feel, for a few alternative classes. I know I for one am sick of seeing most of club racing dominated by 600 classes with many entrants and a b and c classes. I found the Sounds of Thunder class by far the most interesting, followed by powerbikes and then the 125's. I never watched the 600's to be honest but thats just me.

It doesn't matter what you race or how much money you spend or what your reason for doing it - you are on the track racing- not doing a track day - but racing. It's utterly and wholly a different thing to doing a track day!

Hear hear Seve!

Just proves how competitive it will be though, from how much arguing you all are doing about the cost!!!!!

Who cares?

This is supposed to be fun :lol:

May I say the words "pot, kettle, black" The participants know to what and to whome I refer. ;)

With 13 years racing experience behind me and 32 races this year I'll add my £0.02 worth. I race an SV650, it's a bit heavier and a bit more powerful than the Dukes but, it's a useful yardstick for coming to the figures I list below.

First off - you have to understand that racing is a financial blackhole. You will never be able to spend enough money, however, the wise person is the one who knows when to stop spending money and what to spend it on. I've seen plenty of people drive themselves to the edge of bankruptcy for no appreciable gain.

I agree to some extent with what CC & Weeksy vis a vis why race if you don't want to win but, I disagree with their assertions (Weeksy in particular) that it's necessary to spend nearly £7k.

Bike: £1500-2000
Tyres (2 sets of Rennsports): £400
Clip-ons: £50
Rearsets: £200
Leathers (Crowtree): £700 (I'll assume you have a helmet, gloves & boots)
Petrol: £20 (1 jerry can per meeting), 6 meetings: £120
Licence: £35
ACU test day: £50 (I think)
Race entries: £140 (I'm guessing here but this is typical), 6 meetings: £840
Oil: Change ever other meeting, 3 changes at £20 a time: £60
Oil filter: 3 changes at £4 ea.: £12.
Lockwire: £20

Total: ~ £4240

Travel costs: I have not included travel costs because it depends upon your location and hence it varies a lot but, let's assume £50 per meeting

Food: If it's done by yourself then £10-£15 per meeting is reasonable. Beer & alcohol costs aren't admissable! ;)

Accomodation: Free - use a tent or your van

So, living costs are ~ £60-£65 per meeting. ~£375.

So now, I make the total ~£4615


Let me explain my reasoning:

Bike: Can be found on E-Bay costing anywhere from £1000 upwards. I've seen good sound bikes going for £1500. I'll assume £1750.
If the bike has been looked after then the pads, chain & sprockets, belts, suspension etc will all be decent and will not absolutely have to be replaced or renewed (personally I would).
Spend time ensuring your bike is thoroughly prepped and debugged.. To finish first, first you have to finish.

Servicing: What kind of self-respecting racer pays someone else to maintain or prep their bike? Do it yourself!

Tyres: This year I used my wets on 3 occasions - therefore they were hardly necessary. Lads were using wets when it was just damp and wondered why they fell off or got stuffed. If wets are not necessary then spare wheels aren't. I used a set of Rennsports every 2-3 meetings riding as hard as an SV could go - therefore in a 6 meeting series at worst 2 sets are going to be used. Rennsports are not brilliant in the wet but they're not terible either - compromise and get a tyre that can do both like a 207GP.

Fuel: My SV was using a jerry can of fuel over a weekend of 4 races although as I got faster I doubled the usage! :o I doubt an SS will use more.

Of course, I spent much more than this because I wanted to win and I take my racing very seriously. I had spare wheels, various tyres including wets & intermediates, a range of chains & sprockets, tyre warmers, lots of spares, a van etc blah, blah, blah. I spent £12k but, this is simply not necessary in an inaugural series such as this. What has to be remembered is the following:

1. It's an inaugural series of only a few rounds. There's a risk of spending many £1000's putting a bike together only to be left high & dry the following year if the series folds.
2. It's by no means certain that it will carry on into 2006.
3. Most of the people who will take part have no or very little track experience let alone race experience. Wets, warmers, different compound tyres, a range of gearing etc will simply be lost on them and will be more than they can cope with - many newbie racers get themselves tied in knots with this sort of stuff - knowledge of which is only gained with lots of experience. There's an awful lot of bling in racing.


I'd suggest that £4k is the absolute minimum spend.
£5k would be advisable.
£6-7k if you want good suspension, a range of tyres, warmers and all the other trinkets.

Crashes and mechanical failure will doubtless bump up the cost and you should be prepared for this but, I believe the figures above are accurate. Some individuals will spend more, some less. What any newbie really needs is to spend money ensuring the bike is sound and reliable first before buying trinkets.

My advice to anyone interested in this is to go in with your eyes wide open. Seek a range of opinions from a range of racers. Set your budget based upon informed opinion and sound evidence, stick to that budget. Spend your money wisely and don't be led down the garden path of having to spend money on stuff that you can't exploit because you don't have the skill or experience.
Aim to do everything right - if that means you can only afford to do 4 meetings then so be it. Better to do 4 safe and good quality meetings than 6 with a bike that is a danger to yourself and others.

Remember.... talent is what counts and a talented rider on a half decent bike will nearly always shine through.

What will determine the success of this series (based on my experience of MiniTwins) is keeping the costs down and making it accessible...not throwing £1000's at it and going bust.

[Edited on 13-12-2004 by twpd]

I forgot to add a note about warmers. The debate rages about their usefulness in many places. I use them, I prefer to use them but, it's not absolutely necessary. What with delays in the collecting area and on the grid by the time the flag drops the tyres are cold again anyway. The biggest impact they have for us racers is physcological and to preserve the life of the tyres by minimising the stress caused by hot/cold cycling of the tyres. You might be interested to know that I didn't always use my warmers because the tyres were up to temperature due to exposure to sunlight on a decent day.

[Edited on 13-12-2004 by twpd]

Well I rode my first race bike to my first few meetings......

But factor in a trailer at £100-£150 or borrow one (I know plenty of biking mates who own one). The travel is included in the costs in my previous post.

BTW....my van cost £150!!!! It's been reliable and cheap to run so...the moral is that it can be done.

P is considering giving this a go on her M600. I'm not too keen on this myself because it means no road riding next year but, the idea does have its merits and the money saved on buying a bike could be put towards upping the suspension spec of the bike, improving the brakes for racing use, paying for any mechanical failures and then returning it to road use at the end of the year.

Less £700 as I've already got approved leathers and hopefully will get a bike for £1500, and that's already brought the cost down by £1200 and makes it a mere £3287 by your figures...

Blimey - what did I start!!!!

Well it looks like we finally got to a reasonable price point then !

Bugga - I now need to find another reason not to do this!!! :D:D:D

Ah yes - it might rain !! :burn:

twpd - cheers for your post, its about the best response i've read and makes total sense to me (not necesserily a good thing b.t.w).

i think all most of the rules are fine at the moment, but having thought about it, i now believe having a control tyre as a great way forward to keep costs down - it negates the need for extra wheels and therefore cost and we should be able to get some kind of deal with a tyre manufacturer with a bit of sponsorship.
if going forward after the first year the currect riders feel the inclusion of wets is a good idea it could then be changed.

b.t.w if we do have a control tyre can it be pirelli. i like them:D

everyones advise is welcome but it just seems to be the most realistic.

you have to bear in mind this series is aimed at the trackdayer who wants to dip his toes in the racing world.

by definition if you have done a few trackdays you will quite likely have the majority of the stuff you are likely to need:

leathers and riding kit
maybe tyre warmers
trailer or van

and i think alot of people are really overestimating the amount of money to be spent on tyres, petrol, upkeep.

there are 6 races max if you can make them all. 6 laps i believe even with practice thrown in its not going to be many miles per meeting. call it 100. so 600 in total. call it 1k then.
as far as im concerned i wont be fannying about with oil changes etc after every race on a 620 in a very low state of tune.

also for me and maybe some others, the races will replace some of the trackdays i would have done so that money will be netted out too

so far cost for me is one bike £2000.00 hopefully leathers etc I have already got will be ok, van cost 75.00 already lasted me 2 years. Its the cost of annettes valiunm thats worrying me! I have no idea what this will cost me at the end of the year but most years I do quite a few track days and I suspect I will do fewer track days if I enjoy racing.

There have been many comments about why race if you dont want to win, my view is that With the people already signed up my chances of winning are low, but as dickie stated if im not last in the first race it will be a start.

My stated aim when this was proposed was to let younger and fitter club members crash their brains out, but I persuaded myself that it would be fun and I would regret not giving it a go. I also feel that It may be what I need to regain the corner speed I have lost since my string of accidents, and will make me more aggressive as I am being too cautious when overtaking other riders. So although I do not expect to win races (unless its wet and everyone is on rennesports)I do expect to improve as a rider and may even surprise myself.

another rambling nonsense post by


dave:cool:

A control tyre seems a great idea - as you say - then there'll be no need for spare wheels / wets etc - keeping costs down and minimising differences.

Tim:frog:

Weeksy et al - I see that the first round has qualifying in the Sat, with races on the Sunday - the other dates suggest that its a single day affair - would qualifying be in the morning then, or based upon previous performance?

Tim:frog:

[Edited on 14-12-2004 by Rattler]

Thanks mate, I'd like clarification of this - as I don't want to be spending the whole weekend away.

I'd ideally turn up the night before, qualify in the morning and race in the pm (fall off). This probably sounds unrealistic, but I can hope!

Monty / Chris - can you confirm if qualifying for the first date (Cadders) is on the practice Saturday or race day (Sunday)?

The timings of these are important to me.

Thanks
Tim:frog:

Good grief....this is only the setup stage !!!!

What on earth can I expect to see on the track, judging by the 'winning only counts' faction ???

I'm not having having a dig at anyone but carrying the argument to extreme are we looking forward to fairing bashing, carving up into corners and ultimately taking anyone else's line regardless of the consequences.

I can't ever see that happening but - get the drift!

Frank

So you've seen me on the track then?

:lol:

On previous experience with New Era club championship, each day counts as a seperate round of the club championship with timed practice each morning that sets the grid position for the races. It's all changed a little over the last 12 months in club racing with the introduction of transponder timing. So not sure of this years format

Having just read all the foregoing I know if I was on the fence about signing up for this and was a novice I'd be scared ****less!!! - but maybe thats not such a bad thing!!

I think the points Weeksy and CC make about racing being a run-away train are very important and it is perfectly reasonable of them to wipe the rose tinting from all our glasses. As they rightly point out it is not just a money issue its a time issue too.

Dickie's last post is getting somewhere now and I would just like to put my angle on it and maybe that will help those who may be undecided to reach a decission.

To me, an opportunity has been provided by the DSC for primarily novice racers to test the water in club racing with their much loved Ducati's at a grass roots level in an environment they are comfortable and confident with (DSC) with the help and support of alot of very experienced people which I understand now extends to Ducati themselves.

Yep, the manufacturer is onboard and offering support - as Chris Bushell has said - if you want to know whats actually going on - talk to the people who know. Now how cool is that - I don't think the Jap manufacturers support this kind of racing in this way........... People who buy in are buying in to alot more than a 600cc jap series has to offer and I believe the personal rewards will be much greater (and no disrespect is intended to anyone who races in these other classes - I am trying to illustrate the point that the Desmo Due series is going to be a bit special). In fact, I believe that plans are a-foot to try and sort a 24hr race during the year - now how f**king cool is that.

The rules ARE simple to apply and as TWPD has said the trick to cheap racing is to spend your money wisely. If you think spending £500 on a set of magnesium dingle dangle rearsets is going to win it for you - FORGET IT, loose a few lbs down the gym, sharpen your mind then see how much quicker you can be. If your on a quicker bike than me or a better rider and you end up behind me I won't be waving you past.

Tyres seem to be a problem at the moment - to me I could'nt care less. If its a control tyre so-be-it, as a novice I'm in no position to comment intelligently on the various merits and demerits of the various manufacturers. But what I do know is - if we are on a comprimise tyre, then we ALL are, its up to the rider in us to get the best from it.

Since warmers and their associated costs seem to be an issue then its easy - no warmers - debate over, I personally would be in favour of that ammendment to the rules.

So far as "how much will cost" goes.....

I spent the best part of £1500 last year on trackdays, tyres, fuel and sundries.

I already have a trailer (3 bike) (As an aside - if someone wants to take part and is put off by the lack of suitable transport but lives nearby, I'm happy to help out and keep the costs down)

I don't have a bike yet

I am not considering transport or food because the trackdays and other leisure time have that cost associated with them anyway.

I don't expect my consumables budget (bike) to exceed £1k

I buy a bike £2k (say) and spend a further £1k putting it in shape - £3k total

I compete for a year and decide that was enough, I've spent £5500.

But hang on a minute, I was going to spend £1500 trackdaying anyway and I've got a £3k bike and equipment to sell on. Lets assume I take a hit and sell the bike and equipment for £2k.

The extra cost of competing in this series is only (consumables plus depreciation of my asset) £2000 max.

A weeks holiday in the sun or a years racing with a great bunch of guys - well I made my choice months ago.

In terms of absolute cost, Weeksy you are right. But if like me you want to take that next step from existing trackday addictions (and have already time and money budgets in place for that hobby) then I see no reason why the extra cost need exceed £2k and if you actually already own a qualifying bike then its even cheaper. To me thats pretty damn cheap racing in a gentlemanly environment and this is exactly what the organisers intended.

Afterthought,

when I read JHP were entering with "Dave the storeman" - surely he has a real name !!! my first reaction was - I can see where this going and felt a bit depressed. Now I think bring it on - when the flag drops we are all equal - we can all fall off - have moment - get bike troubles - bad start - get past me - and and for a company with the standing of JHP to have the desire to be involved with Desmo Due this tells me it will be very special and a great year beckons

Hee hee ....erm, I actually posted the reply after reading to the end of page 1 of the thread - BLIMEY this is an active post isnt it ????

I'm glad the realistic costs are finally coming out at last though.

Damn!!! - can I sleve down my 900 and be allowed in please.

I'll just sit at the back honest :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Nicely put Uncledunnie

This my most active thread for a long time - its stirring the emotions!!!!

About bloody time too - now what was the original question???
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Tim:frog:

or the petrol station :o

tim,

i'm in exactly the same boat, i did have a look on the new era site for as schedule but couldnt see one. i think and hope it is as you say, qualify in am, race pm.

i think the practice on the first saturday is purely if you want to go out and 'practice' rather than 'official qualifying' if you like.

cnut.

you recon you'll make it out of the holding area ok ??

Boys,

My current understanding is that only the 1st round at Cadwell has a specific practise on the Saturday for 1st timers. All other should be Sunday only.

Chris

Thanks Chris - is your understanding that the qualifying is on the Sunday?

Tim

tim
the idea for sat at cadwell was to have an afternoon scrutineering session (this being the first meeting) and then at end of sat racing to have an extended practice session just for the desmo due series. we would then have timed qualifying on the sun morning prior to races later in the day.
mw