Sorry mate, I haven't said anything to do with that comment. My point has been about being told your money is being spent on one thing, only to find out differently in the accounts ...

But to address what you've said, I think involvement from the non-DD participating DSC members is good, but I also am of the belief that the people spending their £1000's on racing deserve more say on matters that directly affect them and their wallets.

Again, just my take :)

The 'personal gain' I get from running the trackday is the huge amount of grins spread throughout the paddock-priceless-the downside is the 6/9months work beforehand to make it happen-well worth it.

My main point was really picking up something Dom had said earlier about the RC being in it for personal gain-I wasn't sure what gain he thought there was to be had? I certainly didn't expect any gain-and I've been involved since it was just a drunken idea...........

John

who is saying that.?

you have u2u

Totally agree with you martin, I've always maintained that every member should be listened to and have their ideas/concerns considered regarding the racing. As for voting rights... not sure on that one... probably the educated opinions lie almost entirely within the paddock, therefor leaving a vote about the rules (for example) open to the membership could easily yield the wrong result.
The other bit you're talking about is transparency - I'm with you on that one too.

We seemed to have steered away from DD into a 'how does the club spend it's money debate?'

My memory is clear.
Stickers - for DSC and DD racers.
Set up costs for DD - to get the series going.
DUK truck - at Brands.

As long as all items were part of the DSC core activities, that's the elected MT's role to decide on who/how and what the money is spent on.

Fair deal all round.

Nick - I have no interest in voting or the rules - it's not my place and I'm a dumbo who wouldn't understand them anyway, but transparancy - that's important.

wow its all making sense..................

Exactamundo as I recall, this got done to death at the AGM.

DSC spends money on DSC activities shock, horror, probe................

The MT is mandated to splash the cash by the membership.


Don't try to explain it only makes matters worse is due another airing??


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...364565,00.html

If you can't be bothered to read the whole article this seems to sum things up pretty well

"the essence of democracy is the acceptance that you can’t always have it all your own way. And the test of your commitment to pluralism is accepting the right of others to differ"

Think on,


Ray.

Ray, you talking sense like that completely spoils a good discussion/argument.......:lol:

John

Well I don't believe that Ray was referring to anything I mentioned in my posts above. He mentions nothing of being told one thing only to find out in the accounts the exact opposite. I hope you can see the difference and also that I'm not debating the merits of spending the money, merely the fact that there was a distinct lack of transparency about this at a time when it was a sensitive issue. I think it's important that this point isn't glossed over.

Did I mention I dived the Thistlegorm on Thursday - it was a lovely 42 degree's celsius day and great visibility on the wreck even at 31m which was good because there were tuna around and other interesting fish :)

It was very pretty :D

Not to mention drifiting up and down in the 3m chop on the surface in a strong current on my back - it was great :D

Phew,

friends again at last.....(tee-hee)

I thought my first trip to a DD round this year (i.e. Cadwell in just over a week's time) was gonna mean 'spittle' protectors all round for my camera gear.

See you soon you racer dudes......Gonna hone my skills a bit for yers all at Brands BSB this wekeend.

Might have some interesting news too if my meeting with Dorna on Saturday morning goes well (now that's got you all thinking I bet).......

Well so far everones behaved themselves and we hav'nt had a slacking match thats got to be a first:lol:
A long long time ago when all this DDing was in its infancy I remember thinking Wow members of this club would get the oppotunity to go out and race each other on track, no that (correct me if im wrong)was a first . The first race at Cadwell saw "what you bring, you race" all sorts of bikes put together basically by the individual members . Some bikes were more profesional than other ,it did'nt matter, everone was there for the same reason,to get out on track and RACE. A lot of work was then put into "developing" a better bike, as we saw the "Profesional" "factory bikes tearing of down the field ahead of our own DSC members all out for the reason of racing fellow club member. So more money and effort was needed to keep competitive, not by one but by all. I don't think any one can say racing is not expensive even in our own club series, I was very suprised when I found out how much each race weekend was for the riders let alone the back up teams. Its fair to say that if you are prepared to go out and do this sort of thing then you should be committed to a certain amount of "expenses" Some people will no doubt spend more than others in there pursuit of competition and enjoyment.
As for the "should the DD go out to other's" What came first the chicken or the egg, well in this case the DSC came first and it was the DSC that brought the DD to fruittion, I personally think the DD is the Racing section of the DSC and should remain so. Long live the DesmoDue Long live Freedom and Democracy and if any one objects Ill shoot the ******s :lol: 4D

What?

Where did I say that? or anything like it?

Please quote me John :mad:

I was just getting to grips with how entertaining this DD thing is.................and the thread was moved!:lol:

Possibly the worst thing to have occured in the club!

[quote=Fordie]
A long long time ago when all this DDing was in its infancy I remember thinking Wow members of this club would get the oppotunity to go out and race each other on track, no that (correct me if im wrong)was a first . The first race at Cadwell saw "what you bring, you race" all sorts of bikes put together basically by the individual members . Some bikes were more profesional than other ,it did'nt matter, everone was there for the same reason,to get out on track and RACE. A lot of work was then put into "developing" a better bike, as we saw the "Profesional" "factory bikes tearing of down the field ahead of our own DSC members all out for the reason of racing fellow club member. So more money and effort was needed to keep competitive, not by one but by all. I don't think any one can say racing is not expensive even in our own club series,

5p's worth from an ordinary member.

I thought along with a lot of other members, that this extension of the Clubs riding outlets was intended for the entry and enjoyment of all, yes no ones naive in thinking racing is going to be cheap but this series was set up so that it was kept to the bare esentials.
Developing better bikes more money etc has already started to make it elitest and out of reach for more people than it was when it was started.

So if a % of riders decide this year say that they want to spend X more on their bikes to stay competitive where will it end.
we all know a rich persons track day.

I dont mind if the club has spent a percentage setting it up and funding promotion any more than funding other activities that I have'nt had chance to partake in either due to time or distance,but that does'nt mean participating members have the right to price it out of range of ordinary members.
If you cant win the DD on a bog standard unmodified bike you should'nt be allowed to throw money at it.

ian

That's lucky for me then ;)

I heard yours was Dog standard

If you read the rules there's not much that you really can throw money at, and if you do then the power gain is so little that you'd be better off learning to ride it better ... which was the whole point of the series in the first place!

It's just got an Ohlins rear shock, K&N filter and Termi silencers.

That's it! :o

The shock is a luxury really (Chass just took it off his 916) as I think the standard one was fine.

888heaven, where's your roundel? :) (joke!)
I have to say, your comments have struck a chord with me.

When DD was first touted to me, (I believe at Track Attack 2.5 but my memory can play tricks on me), I was led to believe that it would be for DSC Members, riding essentially unmodified bikes, and that it would be just about the cheapest way to race motorbikes.

DD in reality seems to be fairly close to that ideal, but somehow the usual racing formula that competiveness is directly porportional to expenditure applies. In my naivety, I feel sad that this is the case but I suspect it is unavoidable - unless the rules about modifications were made stricter, of course.

In all other respects, and being largely unaware of any politics that may be going on behind the scenes, I have to say that as a member of DSC, I'm proud of what has been accomplished by the Club and the DD racers/Team Owners. What a fantastic achievement for all concerned.

In truth a DD race can be won by a rider on a virtually standard bike, with only minimal modifications for race compliance. Domski's efforts are evidence of this as he rode a late Monster that had race cans and race airfilter performance mods only. And the fact that he was beaten in one race this year by Glen Graham on an older, nearer stock 620ss is further proof.

You can spend lots of money on the bike, fairings, PC111's, dyno time, trick suspension, etc, etc, but the best riders will run at the front whatever they are on.

The rules on modifications are pretty restrictive and ensure that; In DD, a slow rider on a fast bike will always be beaten by a fast rider on a slow bike.

Tim

I wish you lot would stop reminding me about that!! :lol:

Glenn's even more stock bike does have pipes, filter AND a chip(?) also re-valved forks which mine doesn't. Dunno what shock he's got though, it looks standard :)

He just rode better at the last corner - git ;)

I agree though, a good rider on a stock bike, will beat a slow rider on a fast bike. There are some seriously fast bikes out there, I'm worried what will happen when a quick rider jumps on one!! :o

Costs
Many a class B bike is out on the grid for less than £2500, mine included. Some parts on what are now 10,11 or 12 year old bikes are no longer serviceable, namely standard shocks and brake master cylinders, add to that worn discs and there is little choice but to spend some cash on improving the bike. For many this translates into fitting bits off larer models, like a 750/900SSie shock, 916 master-cylinder and discs off anything from the late 90s early 00s. All of which can be had secondhand for a reasonable cost from either fleabay or breakers.
Then all you need to do is learn to ride them like Fil2 does or Chris Wood, Paynep, Grif64 or Andys 900SS to name a few others. And unlike last year you don't need to pull the engine apart straight away to fit a 675cc bigbore kit.
All this still translates to a very chreap entry into racing and with race meetings costing me in the region of £300 a time for entries fuel etc you can take part in 7 UK meetings for a tad over £2200 allowing for the purchase of a new set of Pirelli Diablos.

In case people haven't noticed their is a large proportion of DD racers that do not come onto the board many of whom just want to race and are happy that the DSC has given them the oppotunity to do so.

When I sent out a survey to class B entrants a couple of months ago 22 said they intended to be back for more in 2007 along with 3 maybes, which accounts for the 25 replies that I had and out of those that didn't reply I suspect 3 of them will be wanting to come back.
For many 2007 will be their third year of racing and as the cost of the bike has been dealt with, a years racing in DD works out quite cheap.

Dom & Tim
I do accept that the best rider is likely to win, whatever he/she rides, within a given set of rules, provided the difference in ability is enough to overcome the shortcomings of his bike. I also accept that a slow rider will most likely not win, no matter how much is spent, given the modification restrictions in place in DD.

I also note that in the examples quoted - Dom and Graham - the bikes are modified, performance-wise, compared to stock bikes. I've seen the amount of money quoted on the message board as having been spent on bikes by some of the competitors. My over-all impression is that a good deal of money (sometimes very serious amounts) is being spent on what is a an entry-level, grass-roots club series. Further, if you are a "middle of the road" sort of racer, you are not only going to be beaten by riders with more ability (fair enough), you may not be competitive compared to other MotR racers with more money than you (which runs against the original DD ethos as I understand it).

Still, I am somewhat re-assured that the riders themselves do not seem to feel that this is an issue.

Anyway, I'm only jealous of the DDers cos the original series was going to be for 750's (I've got one of those and was half-toying with the idea of having a go - I can't afford another whole bike).

I disagree (unsurprisingly for me).

I think your statement is wildly inaccurate. Sorry Kev.

I think the majority of DD rider DO visit the forum. It's largely made up of the active forum users in my opinion. Here's the more regular forum users...

Tony PERRIN
Tony HATHAWAY
Tim PRITCHARD
Tim HOWARD
Richard THIRKETTLE
Phillip HUNTLEY
Phillip CLARKE
Phil HARRIS
Paul PAYNE
Paul MARTIN
Nick BOUSTEAD
Murray BOWN
Mike ATACK
Michael WINTER
Lucie STONE
Kyle HINTON
Kyle BENNETT
Kevin ELLIS
John WILLIAMS
Ian LEAH
Grahame BUTCHER
Graeme MELVILL
Glyn HINSLEY
Glenn GRAHAM
Franco NISCO
Eric HOWE
Doug CLEMMANS
Dominic CLEGG
Dominic CANN
David PRATT
Chris WOOD
Antony ESPINDOLA
Antoine JOSSERAND
Andy ROBERTS
Andrew SHEPPARD
Andrew GRIFFITHS
Andrew CHALLIS
Alastair BISSON

That's 38 by my maths. I'd say that's quite a majority.

Am I wrong? :confused:

Kev, thanks for your input. I am a little unclear where the line is drawn between replacing worn-out original parts with equivalent modern gear and what represents a performance upgrade. I guess that is sometimes a grey area.

I appreciate the time spent bringing me up to speed with all this.

That will be great. Fingers crossed!

:)

That's a fair statement.

I would think that the 583 comes more down to rider ability and the bikes are a whole lot cheaper too. I can't see people spending anywhere near the sort of cash that an 'affluent' 620 rider would. You're just not going to get the same gains (I wouldn't think).

Unfortunately, all racing is incredibly expensive. Whilst the running costs of DD are low, the initial outlay is much higher than other classes. You can buy a half decent 600 supersport bike for £5000, but that will probably cost £800+ a weekend and eat tyres. The other end of the spectrum (to which DD is closer) would be CB500's - bought for £300-£1200 and cost the same to run as DD. Now that is cheap racing.

The other side to racing, at any level, is that even if the rules don't permit it, people will always find ways to spend money or cheat or try to gain some sort of advantage. It happens in virtually every class, that's just human nature I suppose?

Class B does provide great value for money.

Class A will always be tougher and more expensive, as the bikes are more expensive and the faster riders race in it.

Both classes are incredibly good fun and the riders, teams and spectators on race day are a great bunch of people. That is what makes DD different/special.

As long as he's not one of them tarts who hangs about in hairdressers Lambos ;)

:D

:bouncy:

Dom if I missquoted you earlier I apologise-I did read that statement somewhere(cannot find it now-doh) but perhaps missatributed it to you.

John

Firsty a large proportion and majority are not the same thing and some on the list are far more regular than others :) I was mainly thinking in terms of Class B where I would consider a third of the field aren't regular posters with some never posting.
I agree the Majority off DD riders have posted on the board, but take this thread for example over 100 posts so far of which 12 or so current DD riders have had a input and a few Ex DD riders, so about 1/3 the DD field.

If anybody is thinking of entering DD in 2007 it may be worth seeking out one of the DD regulars that doesn't post here and ask their opinion it may help you make the decision to join in.

Loz as far as upgrades go
take the items I listed.
Discs ---- have to be Ducati OE parts so little choice there
Shock --- Budget upgrade is a SSie one and at the other end of the scale there are the Ohlins, WPs, Penskes, Nitrons etc
Master-cylinders--- Budget is a 916 item or GSXR (in Zimbos case), top end is a AP Radial and just down on that a Brembo Radial.
Some people have even splashed out on a Billet Brembo Caliper, but this can often be offset by not upgrading to twin discs

Been watching this thread...

This series is extreemly cheap to do and a testament to the rules and bikes chosen. My bike has come in at under £2k and its won a race!!

I spent 15yrs racing battery model cars right upto world level and we used to spend a fortune on those little 'toy' cars. Tyres every-other race (6xqualifying races, plus final), motor every meeting, batteries every month or so.......

Also to keep on context, I spent £800 on 'upgrading' the suspension on my R1.... I have spent £9.99 + about £60 on the 583 (fork oil & used rear shock).

It can be done very cheaply and, yes, like all bikes you can 'bling' them up...

Andy

Remind me again where did you find that cheap race wining bike :)

This very kind sir, indeed..... :)

From a chat at the BMF to tracking in a few weeks or so..... I really enjoy DD, roll on Cadders and next year... and if your thinking about it... DO IT!!! you'll only regret it if you don't...

Andy

Re Loz's comments... It's my belief that you can throw as much or as little money at a bike as you want, but there's not a lot of advantage to be gained by it, most of that would be experimental.

I run a '02 m620, and here's what I've done to it and why:
1) Raised the pegs - the standard pegs were decking out on the warm up lap on a february track day! Cost? I think that cost something in the region on £80.
2) Fit high level pipes - same ground clearance issues as the pegs. Got som second hand Sil's for £240.
3) High flow air filter - don't know why, pete swapped it!
4) Clip-on bars - the standard ones were too high and killing my arms. Cost £80.
5) Twin disc conversion - the single disc was capable enough but didn't give me any feedback. I find the twin setup much better for confidence. If I remember right it cost me something like £60.

That's it, the rest of the bike is bog standard. I was fairly new even to trackdays before I jumped into DD and ended up being able to get 5th in the final table last year and a 3rd place at Brands this year - because I've concentrated my efforts on learning to ride the thing rather than rely on tuning it!

The only riders who will befit from throwing money at their bikes are those who already know how to ride them - and most of the grid, especially me, have still got a lot to learn.

You wish :lol:


re-springed forks, not revalved :D ;) I don't remember about the chip though, it may it may not...


It IS standard.


Lucky you he can't keep it longer... ;)

Absolutely, I'm a very lucky person :devil:

just thought id get in here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

at brands last year was the first time i meet you all and just by having the truck there made my day and made me join so you got me by spending that money hehehehe.

dd is cheep and iv leant so much and im so much more confident in my riding for doing it. iv not road raced before and came from doing trackdays its been so much fun lean how to push a bike hard and find time on a track as i never used to do that when i went on trackdays.
i love dd its been amazing you can not believe how much im looking forward to cadwell see you all there.