It's a question of being Proactive or Reactive.

I know which way I would always side.

Reaction is often to late ...

Aha, the mask slips :ninja:

Mask? WTF are you on Paul?

Diablo Corsas :lol:

Lol...and STILL not Champion?

NO NEED TO SHOUT.

A couple of things - Chris Bushell has, love or loathe him, has had a huge amounts of input and action to make this series happen since inception, all as a volunteer to the DSC. So go easy with criticism of actions please.

The DD series has been 'on the edge of destruction' for every year since 2005, but the riders keep coming back because the standard formula works for the 'silent' majority. The annual 'peasants are revolting' conversation over a number of rules will continue I'm sure. Whilst it may appear a clique, to others, it may just be a group trying to continue with the successful formula. The earth has been promised before, the grass is always greener, the current reality is very, very good though. A wise 'snake' once said, evolution not revolution is what is required.

Good luck all.

Can we go race yet?

Looks like you are doing a good job test with these tyres and I think you need to go back to them and ask them to approach the club in an official way when they got your test information and other tests, then the club can officially tell them what we need from legal stand points etc,. If they could then tick all the boxes then it’s possible it could be put before the rides to see if they wanted to use them. As far as I know, no other tyre than the ones we use have been able to tick all the boxes we need i.e. speed rating, use in wet and dry, etc.

Personally I think I would want to stick to what I know and spent time using and would take a lot of convincing to change

Please don’t let me put you off your testing as it sounds like your learning a lot from them and will be interesting to hear what they been like on DD bike from you at Donny. I know of a few people that tried slicks and went 5 seconds a lap faster straight out of the box.

What I would say on a personal view is that I real like the tyres we got and never caused me problems and I don’t think I would want to change as I know there limits. I don’t even think I would be changing to the roso is they were available unless I was having my arse kicked on the track by someone using them or I was forced to as non stands left. This is because personally I would have to get to know the new tyres and for me it something that’s always taken me a long time and a few crashes till I know what I can do with them. The roso would be good place for me to start with new tyre as it should be a close match to the standard in terms of performance

Finally just like to say its good that come up with an idea for DD and I think you got best interests at hart. I think Chris has only tried to stick to the official line with what we got for this year that cannot change.

See you at Donny

What's this ridiculous business about using Maxxis, who's ever heard of them, Pirellis rock, leave well alone! I can't wait for the Rossos to be available, HOORAYYY! They'll be even better! :)

Dom, I am not criticising the Pirellis at all.....I PERSONALLY may not like them, but PLENTY of riders quicker than me do, so its not criticism of the tyre itself. My beef is MERELY that we can buy BETTER tyres, more cheaply. Holbeach want £160 a pair this year, I just bought a pair for £136.50, and its hardly what I'd call 'series support' let alone sponsorship. We all HAVE to run with Pirelli stickers and get nothing for it. Chris told me that the Pirelli 'sponsorship' runs to the cost of the cups. Thats it. Well, Maxxis are up for supplying a suitable tyre, at a low, supported cost to riders in the series, to supply trophies and prizes too. And they WILL, once we have established that their tyre works in wet and dry without warmers, AS THEY CLAIM IT DOES, be in a position to put a proposal to the RC, as I outlined in earlier posts. NOTHING here is being done in an underhand manner, this all started when we couldnt get Diablos at the end of last year, and Gordon and I chatted about what possible alternatives we could source, and Maxxis WILL be approaching the RC officially, once they are happy that their tyres work on a DD bike.
I am ONLY interested in getting a good deal for all riders, which I dont think we have right now, and nothing seems to be done to do anything about that. The riders are the ones that PAY for the privilige of riding and as we continually have the 'low cost formula' of DD rammed down our necks, here is a way to reduce that cost for the riders, which is why I dont understand the vitriol......
If you want to know how they perform on a Class B bike then come and see me at Donington...I will bring the tyres I have used with me so ANYONE can come and look. I hope the set going on a Class A bike will have been tested by then too, so we'll have some idea for Class A too.

So:

136.50 + fitting + transport to and from your local tyre shop + time = what exactly.?

or:

160.00 for Holbeach, are at every NE round, can and do: fit tyres quickly, overnight, last minute requests, pay later on the phone, bring them to the rounds with your name on them. And supplied a free set for end of year prize in 2007.

Pirelli fund the club's DD trophies and we run their tyres and stickers, no harm done to anyone.

IMHO If I was back in DD again, I would run NEW tyres at every round, the difference between new and used tyres is worth a second a lap, easily. Any tyre that lasts longer, by definition may not be up to that mark.

Can we race yet?

Well if you arent racing this year none of this affects you anyway Chris. And if you can afford new tyres at every round, good luck to you, many cant.

??

I thought this was a discussion forum, for like minded people to discuss options and ideas about DD, past, present, and future.

Pot and kettle maybe?

If I chose to afford new tyres that is my decision. I was sharing from my experience after 3 years in DD. The point I unsuccesfully made was that new tyres are better than older tyres, I'm sure touring tyres would last longer too, but I would'nt like to race on them. Tyre longevity with Pirelli is not an issue, many people run scrubs and A cast offs all season. I chose to be competitive, I chose to change tyres.

Thanks for your constuctive and supportive comments though, very welcoming.

My point precisely Chris....you are in the minority of DD riders that can obviously afford new tyres each round and thats fine, but for the silent majority that cant, in the spirit of keeping costs down, a credible alternative should be available....thats my only point.....as for this being a forum to discuss ideas, well thats what I thought it was too, another reason why I fail to understand the vitriol aimed at this particular thought on tyres.

A few years back when racing my Ex V&M CBR600 in both New Era's and North Glos's F600 class I made the mistake of trying the Bridgestone BT58s as my mate Chris Sherring rated them and I could get them cheaper than both the Dunlop D207GP and the Pirelli Dragon Corsa.
It took me a couple of Wednesday afternoons at Mallory to dial the bike in to try and suit them, but I just wasn't as comfortable or as fast as I had been on the Pirellis, so I reset the suspension etc back to where it had been bought another set of Dragon Corsas and had the bike back as I wanted it.
I had previously tried the D207GPs on my previous CBR600 and though they were a good tyre I went just as well on the Pirellis that were 2/3 the price of the Dunlops

Prices back then (1999) were £150 for Pr Dragon Corsa and £225 for Dunlop D207GPs

Not wishing to get deeply involved in the semantics of tyre choice but perhaps useful for some new to DD to understand why we have a good, long standing relationship with Pirelli and Shell.

Since the club was formed both organisations have helped us considerably, not just with regard to DD, which is of course a key DSC deliverable amongst many others for the members but in general. These relationships didn't just happen, they are the result of ongoing work from the MT for the benefit of the membership.

Pirelli make some bang on tyres that overall have received great approval in DD, they have provided us with a letter of suitability, essential for us to be able to use them for racing.

I fail to understand why some seem to feel so negative to the simple ruling that the DD bikes run with a small number of stickers to show our appreciation of this?

There is no reason why we can't sensibly evaluate alternatives if this is done in a calm and rational manner but I'm not sure that has entirely been happening here. If somebody feels that a better tyre for the job exists it would appear that a tangible case for that should be put together backed up by evidence to support the claims made in favour of the alternative. Wild speculation over this is only going to cause disruption and cause concerns contrary to the best interests of the series.

Please don't read this and try to suggest I'm against open debate, on the contrary, constructive well reasoned dialogue is essential for progress to take place.

On another note: As DD is a DSC run event I can't quite understand why somebody appears to be offering prizes to riders but only if they are members of Ducatisti? Isn't that rather outside the spirit of the series? What is gained by making that distinction?

I have no issue whatsoever with Ducatisti, they have to my knowledge never done anything to undermine what we do so there is no reason to believe that the prize stipulation was driven by them.

As Chris Wood has mentioned; DD has been a real success although not without its problems along the way, having been involved in sorting those out in the past I can only hope that 2009 is a harmonious season for you all and that you get some great, safe racing.

Paul James

I agree with Chris W in some ways. This is a massive grey area though IMHO. Yes, if you throw tyres at racing it may help you - if you are fast enough etc. What i am saying here is that new tyres each round would most probably help a front runner in both Class A and Class B. It won't always help everybody though. It's about striking a balance between throwing money at tyres or trying to improve your ability. But there is always the exception - Kyle Bennet put year old tyres on poll position at Cadwell a couple of years ago - explain that. There is such a large range of ability in DD as well as all the diverse reasons why people race in it, I think this needs to be kept in mind.
I guess what i am trying to say is that if you are mid or back of pack I don't think it's time to buy new tyres every round. It's not going to shave 10 seconds off your lap time...lol
Personally I think the Pirellis are great tyres. They seem to offer loads of grip and wear for most riders. If Rossos are not an option yet for 2009 then I think that DD should be working at getting the Diablos as cheap as possible from Holbeach. That's the bottom line as far as i'm concerned. If £160 the best price we can negotiate then so be it. It won't stop me from buying however many sets as I want for the season. Even if it means i only afford one set. Racing isn't cheap...I just have to face it :-(

Option 2. New DD rule. Two sets of tyres per season per rider maximum ;-)

we're still waiting to see what Dallas can do on a new set of Diablos, so far he has only used other peoples cast-offs.
If as Chris says New ones will be worth the best part of a second a lap I'll be looking forward to seeing the result

Nog - It is about choice, I never stripped and repainted my frame or fairings etc.... I chose to spend my budget on race entries/tracktime and tyres. I had two offs that I put down to pushing too hard on worn out tyres, Oulton and Assen for you history buffs. So my reccomendation is that if you want to race and be competitive, change your tyres as regularly as you can afford.

Franco - you support my point. Kyle new Cadwell very well - so used that to knowledge to put the bike on poll, new tyres, he would have gone even better.

When front runners are selling lightly used pairs for 40. or giving them away, now that is a bargain for the mid pack racers.

Kev - Trust me on the tyres, my experience definitely, and some other pretty fast guy called Geoff.

Mate did that bang on your head at Snetterton give you some kind of lasting amnesia, wasn't it you that had a massive off at Coram? or maybe I've got amnesia :lol: :lol:

And I seem to remember peeling large strips of his 'nearly new' tyres off EL Rico Del Rosso's bodywork after he was punted during that incident!!!

LOL !!!!

I'm suprised I didn't pick up on this earlier


Is this refering to the Maxxis tyres and if so who is claiming this
Are Maxxis claiming their tyre is better than the Pirelli Diablo as that is one hell of a claim
From that claim I take it there use will enable the DD lap recorda at all tracks to be reset with their use.
Will we be able to charge into the first corner harder after just one warm up lap.
be able to brake later in the wet and turn in harder

Or are we talking about another make of tyre and if so which
I know Pirelli are claiming the Rosso is a better tyre but not at a cheaper price

Now another interesting little fact that came over the air waves this morning! I am given to undertand that these Maxis tyres are actually manufactured in a place renowned for it quality control the "Peoples Republic of China" no less.

As the little sage who called me mutterd: "I suppose when the wear down a bit, Barbie's boobs will start poking out!"

Cruel but very funny!

Panic over, it's all been a misprint:




The Same Tread Pattern As Dunlops!
These Austone London Taxi Tyres have the same tread pattern and strong construction as Dunlop taxi tyres which are known as the market leaders.
These taxi tyres are 175R16 98/96Q and are approved by the PCO in London for fitting to all London Taxis. You will not find tyres of this quality cheaper anywhere else!! These tyres feature the key performance criteria for taxis, namely price-competitiveness and high mileage capability.
Don't forget that Dunlop taxi tyres retail at £65.00!! Put together a large order and get our best price.

Maxxis
 

Just seen this on a USA supplier web site whilst doing some research;


http://www.tiresunlimited.com/ALL%20...ycle_tires.htm
Quote

Maxxis Motorcycle Tires

Maxxis Website

Models available in Maxxis Motorcycle Tires for:

Street Tires:

Please note: Starting the Fall of 2008, Maxxis brand motorcycle tires for street/highway use only will be very difficult to get, due to Maxxis' decision to quit producing motorcycle tires for street/highway use only, effective January 2009. Thank you.

??????

Maxxis is a rebranding or new name for Cheng Shin motorcycle tyres made in Tawain

Maxxis: Tyre brand produced by Taiwanese manufacture, Cheng Shin Marshal:
www.tyres-online.co.uk/links/linkmanuf2.asp - 32k - Cached - Similar pages

I'll tell you what, I'll put David Banks, the brand manager for Bickers in touch with you Gordon, or you Chris, and you talk to the guy. All I have done is to have a discussion with Kev on here when you all jumped on...had you chosen to read the FIRST of our chats you would have noticed that these tests are being conducted to see that the tyres work adequately on DD bikes, and if they do, then Bickers would approach the RC with a view to putting a proposal for their POTENTIAL use in the series, with a cost benefit over the existing tyres to the participating paying riders. Nothing more. No one has ****ged the Pirellis, no one has suggested they are unsuitable....this came about during last year when Diablos were like hens teeth and Rossos were just a twinkle in someones eye. IF these Maxxis are so bad....as has been suggested/hinted by a good number of you, then they cannot possibly give any performance advantage over the Pirellis, so let ME run them this year. And if I do better than I did last year then they may be worth looking at....i dont care where they are made...30 years ago we all used to take the **** out of stuff made in Japan, and many of you are old enough to remember that. They are made in Taiwan, which is NOT the Peoples Republic of China Chris, in case you really werent aware of that. Even Brembo have most of their discs now made in Thailand by Sunstar Engineering, and all the Big 4 Japanese manufacturers have many components made in mainland China....even Nankai leathers are made there these days.......Alpine Stars in Indonesia, so come on, lets not knock a product because of where its made, thats pathetic.....if the facts point to them being **** so be it, but childish racist accusation is well below the level I thought you'd be punching at Mr Bushell.

I think that'll be the free speech you were on about in post #69 ;)

Dave I would be very suprised if you didn't go a bit better this year at the final 2008 round at Cadwell you were 12 seconds a lap down on Cleggy in the damp first race and 9 seconds slower in the drier second race.

Just been on the Maxxis.co.uk website and the Sportmaxx Sport hasn't got a listing for a 160 rear although they do that size in the Sportmax Toutring tyre range.
The website is obviously out of date as its still advetising the NEC and Motorcycle-Expo show

I know Kev, a) I hate the rain and b) I just dont get any confidence out of those Pirellis. The Maxxis on the other hand felt VERY confidence inspiring. But lets wait till someone faster than Cleggy has completed his tests, then you'll have an idea of what a front runner and a mid pack runner think of the tyres, which hopefully will put an end to some of this 'banter'.....
I can confirm that the Maxxi Sportmaxx is available in a 160......

David,

If you read my post more carefully, you will see that I reported that I had been told, not that I knew where these tyres were made.

I am old enough to remember buying brand new Hondas in the 70s, where part of the deal was that the dealer took the Cheng Shen tyres off the bikes, threw them in a skip and fitted TT100s, on the grounds that the tyres supplied with the bike were not fit for UK conditions. Whilst I continue to be amazed at the advances made in tyres over the 34 years that I have been riding, I personally have never and wouldn't fit anything less than the best tyres that I could get for the machine. Even on some of my little 98cc Ducati's, you wont find budget tyres on them, it is a false economy and I value my life much more than £20 saving, which is probably what it would be.

For the record I have visited both the PRC and the ROC and am more than well aware of their geographic and cultural differences.


With regard to the tyres that can be run in the Ducati Sporting Club's Desmo Due series, the only tyres that are eligable are H rated Pirelli Diablos at this time. No rider will be given dispensation to run anything other than that this year. We are also looking at an enviroment (racing) that can impose much higher loads on machines than would normally be encountered on the road, so yes quality of manufacture is very important.


I do not make such a statement lightly and without having discussed it with RC and MT members, there are a lot of reasons behind this not least of which is that it is potentially dangerous to have a mixture of tyres, with possible differing performance characteristics, on track at the same time. This in particular is because the series uses a control road tyre, which has been approved in writing by the supplier as being suitable for these machines in all racing conditions. I haven't asked Pirelli directly, but wouldn't be surprised if they withdrew their approval, if we alloowed anything other than the contriol tyre. I do understand that many series, often with a lot more power, have a free tyre rules, but by the same token, BSB and WSB run a control set of tyres; you cant run what you want there.

It could be as dangerous as someone being out on slicks when the rest of a grid is out on wets and the rain comes down hard, if we allowed you to run on Maxxis. Then again there will be the question of other riders coming back and saying that iif he can run a tyre other than the control tyre then I want to run Dunlop, Michelin, Bridgestone, etc. That is one of the main reasons why the series has a control tyre in the 1st place.

I for one am not prepared to take such a decision when it is potentially peoples lives that could be put at risk, especially when there is no valid reason to do so other than potentially someone might save a small amount of money (compared to the cost of doing a season) on a couple of sets of tyres.

If you personally wish to try these tyres against other makes then you will need to enter a series that does not have a control tyre, i.e a series other than Desmo Due. That is of course your decision.

Whilst you may well feel that the Club should look at changing the control tyre for Desmo Due in 2009 to something other than a Diablo, I have to say that I do not see much support for it and the majority of communication that the RC has received is that riders are happy with the Diablo and do not wish to change. In fact apart from yourself we have not received a single communication in support of consideration of a move to Maxxis or any other brand, which I have to say is rather telling!

Well firstly Chris, no one was talking about cultural differences between the PRC and Taiwan, more their geographic and political situations, and the fact that Maxxis are NOT made in the PRC.
Secondly, I remember buying new bikes and throwing away BRIDGESTONE tyres....as unsuitable. But having ridden the Maxxis I am suggesting, at this early stage, that they are likely to be suitable. HOWEVER, NO ONE, and that includes me, if you read MY posts correctly, is suggesting a change of tyre for 2009, I dont know how MANY MORE times I need to say that before it sinks in......and if you look at the number of people that have contributed to this thread, PRECIOUS FEW actually ride in DD......and believe me, there IS a groundswell of riders unhappy with the tyre we use. Maybe YOU need to spend a little time in the paddock and see for yourself if you cant accept my word as someone who attends EVERY round, and who sees many riders asking for help......I am putting these suggestions forward BECAUSE of that groundswell, not because I have anything to gain, because I dont. But your unwillingness to even consider that another tyre manufacturer could give a better deal to the series participants seems odd to say the least.
As for saving a few bob and not risking lives......well dont you think warmers and wets are about the same thing? its all a question of degree. I have already said that Maxxis are QUITE happy to give you the letter confirming suitability for use WITHOUT WARMERS in wet or dry, and again, have said that sentence so many times I dont understand why you keep bringing it up as it has already been covered. I will continue the tests, on Class A and B bikes, OUTSIDE of DD, and when they are complete I will pass all the relevant info to you AND Maxxis and then you can choose to talk to them or not...its not as if anyone is ramming anything down your gullet now, is it? Talk to them, see what they have to offer, see if the results all confirm that the tyres work well on the bikes, then make your decisions, instead of closing your mind to any ideas to improve the series, which is what your current attitude seems to point towards you doing. If you are still not sure...do a straw poll at Donington, and see for yourself how many riders feel the Diablo is less than confidence inspiring. As you rightly say,you have to rely on what you are TOLD, because you dont participate yourself.....so speak to EVERY particpiating rider....not just a select few that you KNOW will agree with you.

I've not yet turned a wheel in anger in DD, and I've never (yet) raced on Pirelli or Maxxis, but in my experience people always moan about tyres - even when the choice is entirely free. Surely the pont of a single-make series is not that the tyres are the best available, but that they are the same, isn't it? It's one of the reasons I'm doing the series, as it eliminates tyre choice (and hopefully engine tuning) from the equation.

If I have a problem with the Pirellis (which is quite likely), I'll put it down as my problem and deal with it as best I can. I think dealing with unforeseen / uncomfortable situations is partly what racing's about, and generally the people who succeed are those best able to focus on their issues rather than blaming the equipment.

See you at Donington!

well said that man i think you will be suprised how good the pirrellis are id never used them untill dd and the confidence ive got in them is 100% so much ive got them on all six of my dukes know and there great on the road too . was using michlen pilots before wouldent go back there again now.

That is, apart from Skids, Senna,Miss Riot, trouty, Tonio, Imola Duke, Chris Woods,fastfasulli, couchie,scooter916,Lily,bradders, Cleggy, Murray, and me.

H rating ? surely not ?
 

Taken directly from Pirelli Web Site today 13th March 2009 for Ducati 600 SS

DIABLO
Front
120/60 ZR 17 M/C (55W) TL DIABLO Front - 2.2 BAR

DIABLO
Rear
160/60 ZR 17 M/C (69W) TL DIABLO - 2.5 BAR

Now as I have worked in automotive engineering for over 25 years.
I know that:
H rating on tyres is for max speed (sustained) of 125mph
ZR rating on tyres is for max speed of (sustained) of 181mph

I also know from calculation and where the rev limiter cut in that at Assen, Senetterton, and Donington, AntonyE was puling over 132 mph !

So I ask, why do DD go with H rating not ZR as stated and recommended on the Pirelli web site????

I know it's (prolly) the 'sustained' thing, but I think I know what I would rather be using (the old '1.5' times safety factor), and where does the club stand 'IF' there was ever litigation due to tyre failure ?????????????????

Mark

Mark my view is that a ZR rated tyre has to have a stiffer carcass than a H rated tyre and is therefore less likely to flex. Allowing the tyre to flex will help it match the surface it is trying to follow and providing you have the pressures right the generated heat along with the improved contact patch should offer more grip.
now if I wanted the ZR rated tyre to do the same I have two choices, either feed more load through it by either using a bike with more power/torque or sticking a passenger on the back.
anyone for two up racing

Hi Kev,
Just going by what is published in the public domain as recomended for the machine by the tyre manufacturer, and what are the implications if 'forced' to stray away from those published, public recomendations.

Anyone fancy a bit of a liabilty law suit.................

MarkO

DSC spirit in full swing then....

There's a difference beteen Road and Track use
Pirelli have always recommended lower pressures for Racing, when I was a member of the Pirelli Riders club using Diablo Corsas the tyre pressures recommended were Fr=31psi and Rr=30psi or reduce those figures by 1psi if using warmers.
Racing focuses on a narrow spectrum of conditions, unlike road riding
differences can include Passengers, Pot holes, drain covers, level crossings, snow, ice etc etc

The prize comment has confused me ?
A member of the forum donated some very nice cups for a few awards...
If you care to look you will see all the riders are DSC members!!!


I personally have increased the club funds by convincing freinds on the other
channel to race in DD and I will carry on to do this..........:)

BTW is it ok to have Ducatisti stickers on my DD bike :eek:

I'm not going to even attempt to argue with you Paul....however you wish to twist whats been said, only a SMALL minority of current DD participants have contributed to the thread, like it or not. Fact.