tyres...again????
 

it is amazing how the same issue crops up over and over again....Nothing ever changes in the DSC, bless it!

The tyre letter from Pirelli exists or certainly did exist (I have recently thrown out an enormous pile of DSC paperwork away in which I think there was a copy). - As Chairman at the time of the start of DD we were very concerned about liability, both financial and moral, - racing is dangerous and we wanted to reduce risk to both the Club and certainly the riders. At the time there were "issues" around road tyre suitability on track, - I can recall the conversation regarding a dreadful accident at Brands Hatch, that if I recall correctly unsuitability of tyres in a sudden downpour were in part to blame.

Right from the start the series was setup to be step up from track days so riders would not have race experience and very purposefully did not want decisions over wets and slicks, and the resulting wrong decisions ending up with accidents.

I did a search in my inbox for Pirelli and founds loads of e-mails, - this one dated 15th March 2005 between the then RC is quite interesting:

Dam, you got me there. Trump away triumphantly :eek:

Ooooh a 749 series.......

Now there is an interesting idea!

Where do I sign?

Why is the point always being MISSED

It isn't about the suitability, its about the monopoly on supply. open it up to ZR's there are then oodles of suppliers one could get them from.

As it is now HR'S suppliers are easily counted on one hand.

As I have said before a light DD bike will get far more heat in a tyre on track than a T9 will on the road, so that is not a dismissing factor.

I bought a pair of ZR's by mistake at the beginning of the season. It did cost me £20 more than what Holbeach charge us for the HR. For once, I am quite happy with that monopoly if really monopoly there is...

I am afraid that you have this wrong. It is not about a monopoly of supply (no one has insisted that you buy your tyres from Holbeech and I confirmed that I could order them from my local supplier on a 48hr basis this morning) it is about the tyres being used being "fit for purpose".

We have previously been informed by Pirelli (and I reconfirmed this at the begining of this season) that the Class A bikes (our most powerful) do not have enough power or weight to work the ZR tyre hard enough to get them up to operating temperature for safe racing under the conditions that we operate under at New Era events.

If the bikes had more than 90bhp and weiged more than 175kgs, then they would be recommending the ZR rated tyre - we do not meet either criteria.

Hopefully that will put this to bed once and for all.

As my linkon page 3 of this topic shows FWR can do the rears but at £99

Stickstuff can do a rear for a tad over £88 and a front just over £68 os about £157 a pair

http://www.sticky-stuff.co.uk/produc...oducts_id=5799


http://www.sticky-stuff.co.uk/produc...oducts_id=5762

Not what I would call a Monopoly
Also BuggsySPS has looked in to what the tyre company he works for could supply them for, they can supply them but at a cost greater than Holbeach

I don't accept that as a valid argument, 125 Hondas and the supermono class, carry less mass than ours, same to not much hp difference.

You cannot sit there and justifiably say that a 748/749/999 road bike will work a tyre harder on the road than a Desmo on the track, as that is a total nonsence.

You made the point a supplier can get in 48 hours. Common used tyres i.e ZR Rossos would be in stock, even at mediocre suppliers

Pirelli seem to be saying it, i'd hope they know something about tyres???

Perhaps take your issue up with them directly?

That is the question Pirelli seem to be saying it, no proof.

ZR's were allowed and good enough in 2006 what has changed??

http://www.ducatisportingclub.com/sh...highlight=poll

Just in case there are some old chestnuts in that thread that need a reheat.

The Supermono classes I'm aware of use wets and drys.

The current DD tyre is a compromise for both wet and dry conditions.

Not the best for dry, not the best for wet, not the cheapest, not the most expensive.

The majority of DD competitors appeared to want to use Pirelli less 6 months ago, has that really changed?

Ray

You are entitled to your opinion of course, but I am afraid that your argument is flawed.

Both of the series that you mention do not run a road based control tyre. I understand they have the option to run wets so their tyre performance in colder/wet conditions is not an issue.

I have spoken to the Pirelli representative this morning and they have confirmed that the reason for the recommendation of the use of the HR rated tyre is to do with cold/wet weather running. In cold/wet weather with lower track temperatures an HR rated tyre will run at operating temperature apreciably more quickly than a ZR rated tyre, given the weight and performance of the bikes to which they are fitted - equally they will cope with dry hot conditions without any problems.

The suggestion is that an HR tyre will get to proper operating temperature in a couple of laps max - you can push it from the race start - on a ZR tyre you might need 2-3 racing laps to get them up to temperature on a cold/wet day and that has safety implications, after all you are racing from the moment the lights go out - who would wait for their tyres to get up to temperature?

Thanks for the explanation, its no use to me saying you must do this, or that, without an explanation. But still the question as to why they were allowed in the first 2 seasons, then vetoed what happened/or grounds for the change.

possibly because when the tyre manufacturers were first approached about DD there was no Class B, and the rules allowed for tuned 675cc machines which may have misled them into believing the bikes would be more powerful than they actually are. Not sure what GS's 620 with the Baines 675 kit made in the way of Horsepower.

Since we have changed to H rated tyres after the 2006 season the Class B lap records have certainly improved in some cases to the tune of 2 seconds.

My belief is that this is in part due to the quicker warm up of the H rated tyre over the Z rated ones. Which in turn allows the riders to get up to speed earlier in the race and have more time left before the chequred flag to improve their times.
I suspect this mainly applies the newer the tyre is and after a period of use and several heat cycles this advantage drops away.

There are probably a few out there that try and exploit this possibility and fit new tyres at a greater rate than many of the others.

A Bit of DD History regarding tyres

From a very early 2005 Rule Book 23/1/05

1.6.7 Tyres

This section is still To Be Advised. There are several options currently being considered including Control tyres, tyre warmers and wets.

Following the meeting of DD registered entrants after the AGM held 12th Feb 2005 this announcement was made

Tyres

After much investigation and deliberation, it was agreed by the entrants that a single moulded tread road tyre should be used, that wets & warmers would not be allowed in this first year of the series.

Accordingly the decision was taken that the Pirelli Diablo would be the only tyre used by entrants this year. At present the cost to entrants will be £120 + VAT per pair, we are working on a further discount and hope to have further news at the end of the month. At the same time we will confirm where you order them from.

In addition we are making arrangements for the support and supply of tyres at all of the New Era meetings with Pirelli. Following a meeting on the 24th of February, we hope to be able to announce further goodies that will be made available.

It was also agreed at the meeting after the AGM that in the event that the majority of entrants found that they wished to be allowed to use a full wet tyre, after the initial races, then the way would be open for a petition to be put to the committee to allow their use in the 1st year.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Later on it was announced that Pirelli as part of there sponsorship would donate a pair of tyres at each meeting to be awarded as prizes

----------------------------------------------------------------

Then in 2006 we had this option

Ok Folks,

The news that you have all been waiting for regarding tyres this year! The negotiations have been protracted, but we think will serve the whole grid well this year and the price is very competitive. We are recommending this arrangement to the riders.

What do you need to do to have a say? Just send a simple Tyres Yes or No to Desmodue@ducatisportingclub.com no later than 12.00 on Sunday the 5th of March and a simple majority will decide. We will announce the result on Sunday afternoon.

Desmo Due Tyres 2006

As most of you will be aware we have been in negotiation with Pirelli regarding sponsorship of tyres for the series, owing primarily to budgetary reductions Pirelli are not going to supply us with tyres as prizes for 2006.

However, they have offered support for the series through Holbeech Tyres, who attend all New Era Meetings.

What does this mean for the series:

1) We will get price support from Pirelli for the tyres we buy. The price is quoted at £135.00 inc VAT fitted. These are for a 120/60-70 front and 160 rear.

2) Prizes in the form of merchandising (caps, fleeces, polo and t-shirts, etc) will be provided.

3) Pirelli will provide UK WSB tickets for this years races at Brands and Silverstone. Numbers are still to be confirmed, but it is hoped they will allow access to the paddock and possibly Pirelli hospitality.

Ok what does that mean for the series:

All bikes will be required to carry Pirelli and Holbeech tyres stickers on their machines. These will be provided.

1) All tyres used in the series this year will be stamped by Holbeech tyres. Anyone found using tyres without these markings will loose their points.

2) At Cadwell Park on the 25th/26th March, each machine will be required to be taken to Holbeech tyres truck; the tyres fitted to the machine and one spare pair (if already owned) will be marked by them.

3) Any subsequent tyres will need to be purchased from Holbeech tyres. These will be marked at time of sale. You can either have them fitted at the track or sent through by post and fitted locally.

Given that we have 62 bikes on the two grids, it will be necessary for you to phone Holbeech on 01406-423611, 10 days before any race meeting, if you want to have them put tyres on the truck for you. This is particularly true before Brands Hatch (for Assen) and at Castle Combe/Oulton, when it is expected that most of the grid will be looking to have new tyres fitted (please see below).

They will carry a number of sets to meet immediate requirements at each meeting

------------------------------------------------------------------
The above option WAS taken up that year AS voted for by the RIDERS.
I was on the RC in 2006 as the Class B rider’s rep so I got to see more of the information than most other riders

:lol: The never-ending saga that is tyres in DD:lol:

ok, I know some of you hate it when people who don't even race or race in DD stick their size 10's into the arguement, (size 8 in my case), but I was there at that first meeting Skids mentions above. I may be wrong, but I think Skids and I were the only two who raced in DSC at the time, (I'm sure there were others who used to race), but although I was never intending to enter (it was designed for newbies), I was asked to act as an advisor on some of the more practical aspects.

Tyres got a lot of airtime back at that meeting and a lot of emotional arguements ensued. I say emotional, as the judgements made were subjective, not objective. Nobody in the room had raced. Nobody had raced on that tyre. I was suggesting DD copied the race formula I was experienced with in the CB500's who used Bridgestone road tyres. These tyres were proven to work, were cheap, already available through Holbeach by the van-load and still to this day produce laptimes for a 50bhp machine with no suspension other than a bedspring of 1.46 around Cadwell (think it might be 1.45 now). The reason pirelli was chosen was IMHO purely because people used the brand on their road Ducati's (not that tyre mind you) and the sexy link of the brands - Bridgestone was never a sexy brand.

The word safety is raised above and has been many times before and no doubt will be again. How can you tell me that it is 'safe' to ask a rider to ride to their limit and beyond in race conditions on a road tyre on a cold and wet March morning with no tyre warmers. Any racer will tell you it's madness, most wouldn't go out under such circumstances. In my first year in CB5's, wets were not allowed, but warmers were. I am by comparison to some of my lunatic competitors a fairly smooth rider, so I actually enjoyed the wet races on dry tyres as I knew I could beat others I normally wouldn't and that some of them would fall off. I have watched DD'ers tip toe around a corner in the wet and sat at The Hairpin and the Mountain at Cadwell watching good riders fall off and take others out with them.

What price 'cheap' racing when your bike is in bits, the guy next to you in the paddock's season is over because you took him out and you are sitting in a hospital bed - all for the cost of a set of warmers or wets.

Wets last ages, you can get a couple of seasons out of them if used correctly. They are great fun, they make the racing better and safer and it's great to put your knee down in puddles. It's exciting to be watching the conditions and making the decision to change tyres right at the last minute and getting down to the holding area to see who has chosen what tyre - all part of racing, same as the big boys do.

If you want a cheap option, then leave class B as it is, but class A has moved on since the series began and is attracting racers to the series who are not 'Ducati' people and certainly not novices. For Class A I would go for full wets, warmers and ANY treaded tyre make.

As for cost, I would suggest most of the Class A boys and girls already have front and rear stands, they probably have warmers for their other track bikes and a set of wets will cost a little over a couple of hundred quid and last them at least a full season, probably more.

WeeJohnyB
PS - I suggested 748 racing ages ago - go for a 748 AND 749 series (same grid but choice of bike), stock bikes NO CHANGES except rear sets and race can - simples innit, no engine mods, no suspension mods, no arguements, no huge complex rule books, just take the mirrors off and race.

Woohoo! Anyone got an ex-BSS 749RS for sale? ;)

Brilliant well constructed criticism, from someone who knows.:)
Not keen on leaving class B as is tho' Matt Traynor is on a mission to win a class A race with a B bike, its possibly on the cards too. :eek:

Reminds me of the last crash I had in SoT caused by somebody trying to race on a damp track getting wetter by the minute on dry tyres, that hurt, caused damage to my bike that was on inters and didn't feel that safe to me



I can't remember sending that email yet, although it is already written, have you been hacking my PC :)



Sold my 748 that I last raced in a SoT race at Silverstone at the end of 2004 so I could get myself a DD bike
Am I going around in circles :puzzled:

cheap racing Ant:lol:

I'm thinking more like it should have had mirrors at sometime in it's life:lol:

Serious point though, the best ride on an RS will win, but the average rider on the RS will still be average - see point well made above re Class B bike winning a Class A race. I have been on track on my 748e and not been beaten on power by a 748r purely because of line and corner exit speed. I've ridden around the outside of a lot of 996R's in my time on my CB500. A well known story exists of a certain Monty on his ST4 with panniers on it riding around me on my 748 at Silverstone on one of my first trackdays.....never again old man:lol:

I ride with some of the No Limits instructors and can't believe what they can do with a motorbike compared to my crappy skills

WeeJohnyB

No problem!
 

[quote=WeeJohnyB]:lol: The never-ending saga that is tyres in DD:lol:

The word safety is raised above and has been many times before and no doubt will be again. How can you tell me that it is 'safe' to ask a rider to ride to their limit and beyond in race conditions on a road tyre on a cold and wet March morning with no tyre warmers. Any racer will tell you it's madness, most wouldn't go out under such circumstances. In my first year in CB5's, wets were not allowed, but warmers were. I am by comparison to some of my lunatic competitors a fairly smooth rider, so I actually enjoyed the wet races on dry tyres as I knew I could beat others I normally wouldn't and that some of them would fall off. I have watched DD'ers tip toe around a corner in the wet and sat at The Hairpin and the Mountain at Cadwell watching good riders fall off and take others out with them.
What price 'cheap' racing when your bike is in bits, the guy next to you in the paddock's season is over because you took him out and you are sitting in a hospital bed - all for the cost of a set of warmers or wets.

QUOTE]

I have made this point before as well but we appear to be in the minority.

And if people feel there is no benefit in the use of tyre warmers why ban them?
I have no problem with the Pirelli's or the single tyre rule.
But it would be nice if at Pembrey at the end of September, they were up to temp. before the chequered flag.
Where people source them from is their own affair. Having Mark at Holbeach's services trackside is great and one thing less for me to worry about.


My concerns about a 748/9 class is that it has been done in SS600 or SOT or some other class that is not 'Ducati'. and it goes even further away from the 'cheap racing' phylosophy that fills the class B grid while the enthusiam for class A (Gucci) seems to be dwindling away.

You can always tell autumn is here - the nights start drawing in, the leaves start turning brown and the great DD tyre mass debate begins again.

I got to grips this year with pushing it on the first lap and got over my cold tyre phobia :)

Sticky stuff did have HR Diablos for £134 free postage back in March.
They soon rocketed up in price when i posted a link on here......:mad:
Maybe Pirelli had a word......... :lol:

Just had a set of Maxxis Sports fitted to my 944 SS for £135 (fitted) at Bikers world whats good enough for
Guy Martin is good enough for me!

Some people mass debate through all 4 seasons :lol:

Anyone else like soup? Pea and ham for me!

My 748rs isn't going anywhere near you nut jobs on track!!!:lol:

They were almost certainly given 'the hard word' Steve. I have a source for Diablos at £143 fitted to loose wheels. I said I would put a link on here and was asked not to as If I did supplies would probably "Dry Up"

I told a few people in the paddock and I know Phil (Ghost) got a pair mail order for about the same.


It's not likely Chris....My supplier disputes the statement from Pirelli "Z rated were not suitable" as once they have started to warm up they retained that heat better due to the difference in construction (see Andy Shep's post). They also said that compounds had changed over the last few years and the Z's were now slighly softer and are fit for use ....for both classes.

Their recommended treaded, control tyre for DD, wet and dry, class A and B is the new Michelin Pilot One (soft front medium soft rear )

The company is owned by the most experienced race tyre supplier in the UK; and will be subject to the same liabilty issues that you have spoken of in the past.

....I was also told with Michelin now putting much of their MotoGP budget into club and national racing an early letter to Michelin UK 'could' get a very satisfactory result for all DD'ers.

BTW....You still owe Steve Klee (Imola Duke) 'a public apology' on here and on Ducatisti

One more thing....If you owned an tatty 1985 Ford Escort and wanted to buy a new car would you spend all your time trying to source a 'new' 1985 Ford Escort or buy an up to date, safer, more economical, comforable....get the picture

Can we have a name for this Pirelli representative? As I have been unable to find anyone in Pirelli who will commit to such a comment.

I'd like to know who shot JFK?

Does the whole Z or H rated issue become a bit of a non-issue as MY supplier - Micheldever Tyres - has advised me that their supplier tells them the "Pirelli don't make the H-rated Diablo anymore"?

Maybe we have to consider the use of a different tyre or manufacturer for 2010..............oh, hang on, I appear to have fallen through a wormhole in time....

We've used 5 sets of tyres this season. I reckon class B's could get away with 3-4 sets a year. Anyone want to buy some second hand tyres? because thats what I'll be using this saturday.

I reckon we've spent more money on diesel and petrol for the bike.

We've got our tyres form all matter of sources, my local Honda dealer, Holbeach and Neil at Cornerspeed offered to get me some too but we'd brought them all. Never had a problem and you pays your money and get your tyres, done!

If the Rosso does get through on H then thats an excellent progression, but looking at the race times, these tyres fit the bill well and I have to agree about the Z's probably not good enough for wet or cold days. Model car racing used a set of tyres per race and it got silly....

See you all at the weekend for the last one ;)

Andy

Probably someone pushed over the edge thinking abput tyres!!!:lol:

They're black round and lets be honest no one makes a bad tyre any more,

"if it aint broke don't fix it"

Or us slowcoaches :lol:

Just beause you're 2009 Class A Champion you think you know best.....


Errr!...Oh! :confused: Hang on a minute you probably do ;)


Congratulations mate a great season and well deseved:D :D :D

Well neither can I. I spoke to the guy that was MD of Pirelli up to last year, and is now a Director of Competition Logistics, who provide Pirelli's racing service at BSB.....who I have known a number of years, plus Pirelli's own technical wizard in Germany.....I wont use the flowery language that the CompLog guy used, but basically, it was along the lines of

" Dont be stupid David, firstly, we would never recommend a ZR tyre then change our minds and say it is unsuitable.....in favour of an H rated tyre especially.....what idiot told you that ? "

And much the same was said from Germany too, and both denied that they would issue such utterences in writing anyway. Has anyone actually seen these letters?

Peace for our time.............
 

30th September 1938, Munich:

"This morning I had another talk with the German Chancellor, Herr Hitler, and here is the paper which bears his name upon it as well as mine (waves paper to the crowd - receiving loud cheers and "Hear Hears"). Some of you, perhaps, have already heard what it contains but I would just like to read it to you........................."

LOL............!!!!

Call them yourself and ask Mark. I have nothing to hide and no axe to grind...and this has bugger all to do with tyres.....this is to do with an MT that bangs on ad nauseum about keeping costs down, and then takes the **** out of any suggestion to change to achieve PRECISELY what they keep banging on about. Its ok to spend £1000 on a rear shock, but you have to keep the std forks.....and use crappy road tyres claiming that the suppliers tell you they are the ones to use and when the people that have to buy them and use them ask to see this documentation, fail to produce it and go all quiet. I'm bloody glad I'm not riding in DD next year. Much as I love the paddock and everyone in it, the politics and organisational claptrap behind it is just complete ********. And I may be the only one to stick my neck on the block but there are a host of others that feel exactly the same way, so dont any of you kid yourselves that it's only me.

Can I make a suggestion here?

Anyone that wants to run different tyres to the current ones, simply has to do ONE thing:

Get a signed letter from the manufacturer stating that their tyres are suitable to use in racing, in both wet and dry weather, for the weight and power made by both classes of bikes.

Once you've got that letter, please come back and post up a copy as it will help us to decide which tyres are suitable for use and those which can be discounted. Until this happens, can I politely suggest that you all STFU about tyres? Kthxby.

Ah, the letter, that must be similar to the one the powers that be consistantly cant/wont/refuse to make available to those that ride in DD mustnt it?
Well thats not a prob, I could have that letter available to compare with the one that Pirelli sent too........But you miss the point Antonye....this is NOT about tyres alone.........or do you assume what a post says rather than actually reading it?

Mate, we ran the ZR tyres on both ours from the beginning and you know how they went.
Also who remembers the epic domski and andy j battle in cold torrential rain at brands hatch in early april 2006 when they were banging farings for much of race 1 and never had a tyre issue and both were on the ZRs then.