wow theres been a lot of things been said and i didnt think i was going to kick up this much resonse. i real like to do it and i believe id get a lot out of it. but due to my student buget doesnt look likely at the moment.

im real missing riding the bike and cant wait to get to cc

thank you for your response very interesting (iv been on amazon and got mr codes book ill read that instead)

Thanks for ringing me this morning mate, hopefully you got something out of it. The books are a good place to start, but buy A Twist of the Wrist 2 first - and read it before you read TOTW 1. All the level 1 drills are covered in book 2 - trust me, I've read it enough times now ...

You've taken that the wrong way. I'm not trying to use you in any arguement, I can argue my point effectively for myself. I apologise if you've taken offence.

Without aiming this at anyone I will explain my thinking.

My point was that (even in my limited experience) the higher grades, however experienced, are quite prepared to go over their own basic techniques time and time and time again in their own training. I've also watched 4th and 5th Dan grades devoting an hour or more to practising a single 'lower grade' kata with the Sensei pointing out tiny, almost imperceptible, errors in technique. My only point was that, in the martial arts context, everybody (regardless of experience or grade) seems more than willing to practise over and over again the techniques they first learned years ago, nobody seems to take the 'been there, done that, got the T-shirt, can't teach me anything about that' attitude.

The people I've spoken to about this often tell me that going back to basics is one of the the most effective lessons they do. Their mindset seems to be 'however often I've done this, I know I'm not perfect and I can improve if someone with the right coaching credentials points out how I could do this better'.

Am I wrong? If I am I'll shut up

In a nutshell, my attitude would be never to believe that I'm so far up myself or be too proud to go back to the most basic of basics. Who knows, somebody may be able to spot a flaw in one of my basic techniques that I may have been incorrectly building everything else on.

In another context, I've been playing bass since I was 15. Recently I was teaching some scales to somebody that had been playing a month. As they showed me how they played a scale, they showed me a method of fingering that they had worked out for themselves. I tried it and it immediately felt more natural than the fingering I've used for the last 20 odd years, I've incorporated it into my own playing and it's unlocked new possibilities.

My point is that, for myself, I hope that I'm always willing to learn something from anybody whether they are the worlds foremost expert or a raw beginner

Can they know how to do it better if they cant do it themselves.?......without actually going through it how can you know the subtle changes in the Kate for example...reading it in a book >?...

i can only relay my expereinces and in karate the best people i have been trained by are people who have been through the mill and still continue to train and strive for improvement.....

its not about training basics as i agree the basics are fundamental to a strong kareteka...the discussion is.....can someone who has ltd " real " life experience teach you actually how to get better unless they have been through it time and time again..i suggest not......

for example....can a new black belt explain how and where a kizamazuki power is generated from..>?......some sure but most no......reason they dont have the time in the game to teach yet........maybe to complete beginners but not his peers......................

sure we can all learn something from someone ( im not that arrogant to beleive im that good jools ) but thats not the point the point is on-going skill improvement and this imho can only be acheived by some-one that CAN teach and has the skill set gained through expereince and can relay the subltes and fundamental parts to a technique

regards

Phil

:eureka:

Absolutely bang on and this is the point I have been making all along.

If we are saying that to teach you have to be of a certain high standard how does that explain sports coaches that aren't of the high standard of their chosen sport and have never competed at high level ?
I know what you are saying and I do partially agree but I also see top level sportsmen taking instruction from people who have never been at the top of that sport ?

A few examples from the sports world, where the coach achieved less than the coachee in the chosen feild of expertise.

Phil Jackson - Micheal Jordan

Butch Harmon - Tiger Woods

Clive Woodward - World Cup Rugby

Jeremy Burgess - Rossi / Doohan

Tony Roach - Pete Sampras

Arsene Wegner - Arsenal

Jose Morino - Porto / Chelsea

Keith Code - ........

?????????????????

Don't get me started, I will use the personal library if pushed....

I've lost the will to live with this thread...no offence to TP but, I'll use him as an example cos he's a CSS coach.... he's been racing barely a year, just out of his novice jacket and he's gonna teach me to go faster? It's sounds arrogant but, it's not meant that way cos I'm well past by best-by-date but, I've got 15 yrs racing experience, a national licence, an international permit entitlement and a string of race trophies. :puzzled:

What is he gonna teach me?

I'm not going to be able to teach you anything.

:)

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much information :o

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::P;)

You said you could.

I'm putting you on the spot and asking what you can teach me. I've done it several times and I've yet to hear the answer.

You can't expect me to accept in blind faith a statement that says you can make me faster. You need to back it up. It's a bit like some bloke walking in off the street and saying "I can make your network faster, more reliable and cheaper to run". You will want to know how.

Being a teacher implies that you have something to teach the student - in turn that implies that you have more knowledge and experience unless you have somehow pre-assessed the student's needs/skills/experience. As we know, this doesn't happen with CSS. Everybody no matter how good or experience goes through the same route.

Would you say the same if I was Matt Bond or Gregorio?

Anyway...this is my final post on the matter. I'm open to being proved wrong - I genuinely am but, the risk is yours. After all the CSS is trying to sell a product - if it wants me to buy then it should convince me that it's worthwhile.

Just a quick responce. What make Rossi greater than Biaggi?

Biaggi thought he was the best and didn't need to change anything. He would always blame his machine.

Rossi on the other hand was always prepared to learn. He also knew he was the best.

Ok, I'm being caught out here for a flippant comment I made to highlight the fact that unless you've got an open mind are willing to learn I won't be able to teach you anything.

You already think you can't learn anything from me - if you went to the school Johnny would match your experience with one of the coaches who has a lot of racing experience and away you go.

We both know you're not going to attend the school so I'm not sure what value there is in debating it.

u2u me if you want.

haven't really got involved in this but to honest if you dont think the CSS can do anything for you dont go. if you think they can and want to give it a go. try it. i know plenty of people swear by it and would go back again and again. others have been and dont like it (although very few to be fair) best thing is surely to give it a try and see?

Trust you to post something that makes so much sense!!!

Where the hell were you yesterday?

:lol: ;)

Have to agree with Dickie. It isn't a quick fix and there are no miracle answers, as far as I can see. I did level one then tried all season to put it into practice but felt much slower because I had so much more to think about. My best day's riding last year was in October at Brands when I stopped thinking about all the CSS stuff and just rode the bike. Jools made a good point about the instruction. I didn't get as much as I'd hoped in feedback from my instructor but I got a lot, almost too much, from the classroom stuff that Andy Ibbott did.

I'm not planning to do any more levels until I've mastered all the things I learnt in level 1, because it's too expensive to do until I feel I really need to.

i found the css a help,then again in jerez i had a day instruction with antinio maeso which was 90 euros. no plans for any more levels at the mo

Just stumbled on this thread by accident....and then noticed who started it....a student training to be a chemist...I wonder how many marks he'd get for this little experiment:P:lol:

Er Clive Woodward...England international, British lion................:D

...and Jerry Burgess is an Australian, so he don't count either!! :P

:lol:

Yes true, but he never lifted the world cup as a player so you could argue that he achieved more as a coach than he did as a player.

:lol:

I'm so glad there are so many experts here!

( X = The unknown quantity , Spurt = A drip under pressure )

I did Level 1 and 2 of CSS in April at Silverstone this year. I learnt a great deal and my riding is still improving from repeated application of the drills I was taught.

I felt they were excellent value and if anything CSS tried to pack a little too much into the day. Everyone from Andy Ibbott down were very committed to everyone getting the best from their experience.

All the instructors I had were good teachers and were able to get me to think about the issues with my riding. Their experience levels clearly varied but they were all enthusiatic, communicative and determined to make sure I was convinced on the points they were making.

Each lesson/drill was related back to chapters in the book and a brief instruction manual such that I have been able to think and read around the lessons subsequently.

Overall my riding feels faster,safer,smoother and I feel more in charge of the bike.

At a philosophical level a young teacher can certainly be a good teacher. A lack of experience does not preclude the formation of an articuilate and effective teacher. However, humility is undoubtedly a prerequisite for learning and if your attitude going into the course is not humble I suspect you won't get your full value for money.

Attendees varied from track rookies like me to committed and clearly very talented sponsored racers. Everone I spoke to seemed to have learnt a great deal form the days.

If you want to know anything else please email me your mobile number and I will give you a call.

I'm doing level 3 and 4 in July at Rockingham so maybe I could see you there.

Kind Regards

Dave

Got to say that the responses you've been getting are leading me to doubt whether I'll try CSS now to be honest.

Having read the book and watched a very old video I can see the merit of the techniques but I'm not sure how well it would necessarily be put across in practice.

To learn the skills is one thing but to teach them to others in a meaningful way takes a whole different set of skills and aptitudes/attitudes ?

I believe that David Cook is/was one of the instructors, if you could book him for the day it would be a guarantee of value for money !!! He has a calm analytical manner and is very able to convey the information gained from observing to the listener, 24 carat bloke all round.

[Edited on 26-5-2006 by Paul James]

blimey ... what a thread .. I have done all 4 levels, am I quicker, yes, am I quick ?? in the great scheme of things ... no ... am I safer, more confident and more aware of the effects of my inputs to the bike and its reaction, both negatively and positively? yes, do I enjoy track time more ??? definately, for me CSS was about achieving all of the above, completing trackdays having gone quicker than before but in a far more controlled manner, no rushes of blood, no teddy bear braking, no panic .. for me that makes it worth every penny TO ME ..... simply because I aligned my goals with the coaching, made it a challenge and wanted to learn ..... take from this post what you will ...

Dibs

This has been one of the all-time most entertaining threads I've read :lol:
We've got flippant, arrogant, humble (and australian :o ) happy, disgruntled, gagging-to-learn, too-old-to-learn, too-experienced-to-learn, hear-no-evil, see-no-evil ... I could go on for hours, but then I'd forget what I was talking about in the first place :lol:
Personally, I just want to go faster, which means understanding more about what I'm really doing, not what I think I'm doing, and I know that means I need an instructor/coach who knows how to watch properly, and I think that is what code is really focussed on. I know I can already race, thats not the thing at all - its what dibble is getting at - the challenge is - whatever your 'level' to understand how to go faster, and you just can't do that by all by yourself.
If only it wasnt so expensive for level 1, I'd have done it already.

Hmmm ... maybe I'm judging what/how-little I'd get out of level 1 too harshly ?
Any comments ?
(please)

Said the man with 9 bikes and counting :lol:



I like trackdays because of the corners, not the straights. CSS helped me to go around corners better, which makes me enjoy them more. A by-product is that I go round them faster because I am doing it better.

My recollections of CSS are that in the introduction its made clear it is not a race school. The aim is to improve the many and various skills you need to go round a corner safely and fast. Equally applicable to Road or track IMHO.

Sure its a good bit more than the price of a track day but driving "lessons" are £20 plus an hour now?

IMHO to get anything out of any course you need to go with an open mind, you might be of the opinion that you have learn't nothing but I'd be a bit wary of anyone who says they have nothing to learn. Sure some might see starting at the lowest level a bit beneath them but again in my opinion one of the aims is to get you to think about and analyse a little about what you are doing on the bike and how it reacts to inputs.

Ray.

Reply
 

Where do I start?

First of all I must apologise for not jumping in sooner but time is a rare commodity for me at the moment and I wanted to read everything that was said.

For me there are 3 points here:

Road/track skills
Coaching abilities
Thomas Luthi

Road/Track skills
At CSS we teach cornering skills, we are very purist on this. For a road rider, it’s the area of greatest enjoyment and if we can help a rider do it with more confidence he will get more enjoyment from his riding.
The same applies to a Track dayer; it's the corners that create the challenges and fun.
And the racers, it’s where the lap times come down, not the straights.

So, if you want to improve your cornering for whatever reason/goal/gain this is our specialised subject - at all levels.

Coaching abilities
I feel that Johnny Haynes gave such a comprehensive answer to this (see bottom of page 5) and I have nothing more to add.
It was interesting that there were no comments, questions or response to this answer though...

Thomas Luthi
Yes he was already fast but there is a world of difference between top ten and top of the podium. In 125 this is normally 0.5 of a sec. Where could you find an extra 0.5 of a sec? Or 1 second or 10? If you are already at your limit then how do go faster?
Could he have won the Championship with out me? Could he have done it without Sepp his chief engineer? Or Honda? Or his Mental coach? Who knows...? Fact, the TEAM as a whole and a bit of luck helped him win the World title.
Did I make him faster? Yes. Did I teach him 'special' tricks? No. I'll give an example from the 2 day test in Brno I have just returned from.
In one corner he was late applying the throttle, which was affecting his time in that split.
Ok, that is what was happening. Now fil2 what would you do to help him go faster? What is the cause of the effect?

Sandro, his team mate has just spent the whole 2 days working on Throttle control. Did he find it below him? NO, frustrating maybe but in the end when we had a breakthrough he went faster.

I say this a lot but you can't change what you don't know. It is one of the facts of this life.

Let me know your thoughts, I'm around until Sunday night when we have Schools in Ireland.

All the best

Andy

Thanks for your input Andy, realise how limited your spare time is.

I hope it answers some of the questions and I hope it raises more which I'm glad to answer, although maybe not straight away!

im hoping TP can show / tell me at cadwell track day...............

Phil..........

Nice to see the 'boss' answering our questions and commenting on our thoughts, I like to see that as it shows commitment to the customers.

I have had lengthy discussion with TP on CSS and he has made some valid comments.
The one thing I cannot understand is if you have a good technique then what is stopping you braking that 5m later, or cornering that 2mph faster or opening the throttle 1/2 sec earlier. I understand all the instructors know the techniques so what is stopping them reaching lap record speed on any bike they ride ?
Maybe this question isn't answerable and maybe we should concentrate on getting the perfect technique first but where does the ability to put the technique into practice come from and assuming all other things equal why are some people quicker than others ?

Anyone care to explain why Rossi doesn't appear to look thro a corner as we are led to believe this is a basic technique ?

The question is answerable - Survival Reaction thresholds. We all have them and this is how we judge 'talent' in bike racing. Example, Shakey, very 'talented' rider because his SR level is so high. Mine has come down because I don't like riding on the edge anymore like I did when I raced. I still want to go faster each time I ride but not at 99%, but faster at a comfortable 90%, hence the reason I don't race anymore.

As for Rossi, he does look into the corner and out. Now his head position would lead you to believe otherwise...
And yes, I do know that as I have spent the last 3 months writing a book on MotoGP riding techniques and spoken to most of the riders at that level. VERY INTERESTING!

Can I have an evaluation copy ? If it's good I promise to tell everyone I know ;)

More interestingly did you or CSS learn anything from them ?

Well, I've made my mind up to try the CSS school.
I made my mind up this way ...
I've just come away from a day at brands gp, and for the first time at a td I spent all the time on one bike (my race 620) with the aim of 'just' trying to understand how I am riding the bike. It had a very interesting quality of having bends that I thought I knew and bends that I had only ever looked at ! A most excellent learning opportunity that I enjoyed immensely, and I even survived to attempts at murder by a 600-axe-tw*t !

1. As discussed with a couple of you - one thing I needed was simply time trying to ride it fast - mission accomplished, as I was the slowest bike (by far) in the fast group, but by the end of the day not around the corners (hooray)
2. I went with the mindset of looking to learn something - not looking for someone to tell me something - and was able to relax enough to start watching myself - at last on the 620 I was spending my $10 carefully, so i feel I can now move forward with it without tripping over too many of my bad habits - so mission accomplished with regard to being ready to learn where the next level begins.

So, the moral of this is that you not only have to want to be a student, but you must also practice being one in order to be ready to learn when the opportunity comes along. Many very accomplished people completely miss this point.
A black belt signifies that you have finished your novice phase, and should now be ready to learn in all situations. It does not mean you are a teacher or a coach.
Actually, you will see many top sports people watching/following others of their discipline to see if there are new any tricks they can steal. Its the ability to pass on the right tricks to the right people that makes the best coaches.
[/ranting-old-git]

As some of you know I spent Easter with Andy, Johnny and the guys and girls at Almeria on a 2 day camp. It wasn't cheap-especially for me since I dropped and then blew up my Gilera on the first day-but it was VERY worth it. If I learnt just one thing the hook turn was worth the time-everyone will take something different away which is their main benefit, the main thing is you WILL benefit. You just have to want to learn-and I have been riding bikes for over 40 years................

John

A good question.

Did I learn anything? Yes, quite a bit and I was astounded how open they all were to the questions asked. For example, John Hopkins. John, how do you get the bike to turn? Answer "Hey man, I have no idea!"
What can be learnt from this? The guy ain't slow...

In the end I spoke with Hopkins, Hayden, Capirossi, Edwards, Ellison, Vermuelen, Nakano, Chaz Davies, Luthi (no surprise there!) and even got some thoughts from Rossi although I couldn't speak directly to him. :(

Evaluation copy? It's on the press week after next in time for the Brit GP when it goes on sale...

Sorry Fil,Dont think thats gonna happen. Sure TP may be able to give you a tow round but until you decide CSS is worthwhile and what we do is a good thing(i.e Do level 1) the tech is gonna remain unobtainable. Please dont expect TP to help you out just because he's a mate as it will cause him much grief from management.Rules is rules.