The answer is in one of my previous posts Kev. The crank was NOT pulled apart or machined in any way and the balancing was a matter of selecting the best matched components, nothing more. Balancing by machining is as likely to ADD weight as reduce it and neither have I fitted a lighter flywheel ! As for the regrinding matter, the thickness of the replacement shells is IRRELEVANT if we take your original argument....the crank will have been reground, metal will have been removed and therefore it would be ruled illegal.

now we're talking, means I can take the bike down to 110kg!! :D

i think you may have to cut off both legs and possibly an arm:lol::lol::lol:

dont know wot your going to do paul:eek: some ones allready cut your legs off well from the knees down :lol::lol:

I hope he sits on you now for that remark lol :D

was that wot happend to you :eek::lol::lol::lol::lol:

In that case Dave there is no issue
As its the crankshaft assembley that has been balanced and not the crankshaft itself,

As your post on Ducatisti contained the following phrase

It looks like the crank had been balanced by itself which would mean some sort of modification to either add or remove weight.

This I am told was reported to the RC by I know not whom and the RC asked me among others for my take on it. I also heard several grumblings in the paddock last year about bikes running balanced cranks or Blue Printed engines.

My view of Blue printing is on page 4 of this thread

Although I already had some thoughts on the matter I needed a bit more information so as well as starting the thread I also emailed some Ducati specialists to get their views

Hence my original question in the title of the post, as I have also said it was the catalyst for the thread but that does not mean it was the target, I have targeted/questioned many rules to do with DD to try and ensure they add value to the series.

As far as regrinding goes, if it happens to me and it turns out that regrinding the crankshaft is the most viable option, I would then email the RC to seek permission to have it done.

If they give their permission to get it done I would expect it to be incorporated into an updated appendix and sent to all entrants, with a view to it being adopted into the rules the following season.

Well I have watched this thread evolve and thus far restrained from commenting But I have to agree with Kev's Comments

Bradders may actually have to cut off both legs and an arm ;) ;) ;)



If anyone is needing a crank re-grind Speak to me, I have a bottom end that I would loan them untill they get sorted with one or untill the point that I need it.
Hows that for a bit of DD spirit.

Blimey - is that the end of the show, or just on a commercial break :eek:

"It looks like the crank had been balanced by itself which would mean some sort of modification to either add or remove weight."

The phrase ' engine in a million bits ' merely indicates the engine is apart Kev....and doesnt even hint at the crank being balanced by itself, so thats a pretty big assumption imho, and would have been far better served by asking a question, rather than opening debate away from the original post without even so much as asking me direct. I only heard about it cos someone gave me the heads up....

[quote=Rattler]
Blimey - is that the end of the show, or just on a commercial break :eek:[

tim is that right i hear your putting a 620 body kit on that trump and planning on using in class A :eek: :devil::devil::devil:

Kev, Sorry to detract from this riviting thread, But I have just noticed your mood.
Is there somthing your not telling us, A Bit of man love with nelly Going on????
"Mood: i need more corner speed" Sounds a little suspect to me :)

[quote=Senna3]
Shhhhhh - do you think they'd notice? The crank has been balanced too!!! :eek:

[quote=Rattler][quote=Senna3]

Shhhhhh - do you think they'd notice? The crank has been balanced too!!! :eek:


thats all right i heard somebodys got a eighthundred motor :eek: :devil::devil::lol:

[quote=Scooter916]Kev, Sorry to detract from this riviting thread, But I have just noticed your mood.
Is there somthing your not telling us, A Bit of man love with nelly Going on????
"Mood: i need more corner speed" Sounds a little suspect to me :)

shhh he said hed balance my crankshaft if i did that:D

ive changed it for you

i thought it was only girls who fell for all that sort of talk :lol: get the goods, THEN do the deed if you ask me! :D

Dose back tracking make it legal? dig a big hole then fill it in;)

seems a bit harsh, Skids never mentioned anyone specifically, more opended a debate which clearly needed to be had, looking at the number and type of posts.

also, having read your other thread (I didnt until this little lot!) I would also have thought you have stripped and balanced everything

TBH as someone non technical, I have found this thread really informative; I know have a bit of an undrstand as to what you lot are always talking about!! :lol:

Panic!

I had my 600ss on the dyno today and it pushed out 57bhp :eek:

What do i do ?

[quote=harriebird]i thought it was only girls who fell for all that sort of talk :lol: get the goods, THEN do the deed if you ask me! :D

sounds like a need a chat with matt:eek::lol::lol:

[quote=Imola Duke]Panic!

I had my 600ss on the dyno today and it pushed out 57bhp :eek:

What do i do ?

A go in class A:D

B dont tell no one :devil:

because we cant take another debate its the weekend for god sake:lol::lol:

[quote=Senna3]
Ok Kev.. I'll stick some chicken wire down the silencer baffles :cool: that should slow it down a bit ;)

Chris

I have seen many sets of (car) racing regs during my career as a Club racer using standard production engines. This included writing some whilst being involved in running a championship for single seater cars. We have also had to deal with these types of issues.

Our definition of standard parts is those supplied by the original manufacturer for that type and model etc, with the stipulation that no material should be removed from or added to it. Evidence of machining or polishing would make the item illegal.

If "balancing" is to be allowed, then the regs state where the material can be removed from the parts. Most manufacturers provide bosses or other areas to be machined to allow balancing of rotating parts.

Although it is often argued that this means stripping is needed to police the regulations, in practice this isn't neccessarily the case. This type of regulation makes it quite clear what is allowed, so all competitors know where the line is, and stick to it. It is ambiguity that encourages people to devise rationales for border line mods, convincing themselves they are legal. Wholesale stripping isnt appropriate at our level, so cars are usually only subject to such a detailed check if other evidence indicated there may be a problem. The paddock is usually pretty good at smelling rats!

This approach may or may not be appropriate for DD, but I thought you might find it interesting.

PS I was riding with you on New Years Day on my wifes 750ss ie!

Take the 750 heads off?

Is that your Trumpet delivering the milk?

you used a fuchs dyno then?

Get the dyno calibration checked:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

In the thread you started on Ducatisti, in the very first Post you have written after the bit about the engine being in a million bits
"and the crank is ready for collection, after balancing, tomorrow"

http://www.ducatisti.co.uk/forum/des...bike-prep.html

No mention of crankshaft assembly,or rods pistons etc, so whoever it was that brung it to the attention of the RC assumed it was the crank being modified, which for most people in DD would have to be the way they would do it as many only have the two con rods and two pistons that came with the engine.

Another DD entrant was wanting to get his crankshaft balanced so that he could match it to the new pistons he was getting, so on the 13th of Jan the day before I started this thread he emailed the RC to see if it was legal, possibly after reading your thread on Ducatisti (but that's only an assumption on my part) in the RCs reply he was told that if metal was removed from the crankshaft then it would be illegal and could be sucessfully protested.

From that point I wanted to know how big a issue this was for people and was it a gray area and if the rule in place is sufficient or in need of rewording.

Or maybe we need to add a rule regarding balancing of the crankshaft assembly and how it can be done without modifying the crankshaft itself

Fcuk me, what a thread! I need another Vodka!

Douglas,

A very sucinct and to the point post which speaks volumes for common sense, thank you.

The point about individuals "beleiving" that they can interpret the rules in a manner that supports their train of thought, is very pertinent.

Ultimately in any race series (cars, bikes or whatever) there is a need for a set of rules to which everyone can compete. There has to be an element of trust within the competitors that people will abide by them so that the playing field can be as level as possible.

Within DD there is a clear statement within the rules that:

EVERYTHING THAT IS NOT AUTHORISED AND PRESCRIBED IN THIS RULE BOOK IS STRICTLY FORBIDDEN

Now I would say that this is a fairly unambiguous statement. We have encouraged, and most people seem happy with, the process that if any rider is not certain about an interpretation, then they should ask the Race Committee before proceeding and therefore get a ruling. This has in fact led to a number of instances where the rules have been amended and clarified to help all competitors.

In part the rules were originally written to try and prevent the ability for people to spend a lot of money on their engines and try and rien in costs.

One little joker sent me the following yesterday:

If balancing a crank is classed as not modifying it, will doing this little lot be OK.

I could do with a speedy decision as I am running out of time to get all this done especially as I'm also considering the 6-speed conversion with a dry clutch.

One of my con rods is slightly heavier than the other and both are heavier than the minimum weight quoted by the factory, I know what I would like to do is balance them so that the meet the factory minimum weight. After all the engine will be smoother and less likely to shake apart

Same as above goes for the new pistons

Also my rear cylinder head has a lower flow rate than the front cylinder head and I know someone elses flows more than that, so I think I'll get someone to alter them so they both match the higher flow rate of somebody elses engine, so long as I don't exceed the class bhp limit I should be OK

Just been comparing camshafts and found mine have a fraction less lift than my mates and are even different to each other, I'll have to get them ground to the factory tolerance that will give the best performance. I'm not modifying them as thats probably how some left the factory.

After checking the combustion chambers one is marginally smaller than the other so what I will do is match the other one to it, a quick skim will sufice after all its not really removing material as thats how it should have left the factory it just good practice to balance them out.

Just found out XXXXXXXXXX's flywheel weighs a tad less than mine but is still within factory tolerance, I'll have to adjust mine to suit.

Waiting in anticipation.


Luickily I paged down on the e-mail and read the "Gotcha" comment before I started a reply, nice wind up and yes I nearly fell for it!!!!!

There is a question in front of the RC now about clarifying section 1.6.21, to make it absolutely clear. Though I notice that "no modifications allowed" seems to already be in the rules for all of the above intended work.

Lord Mayors show

Well my poor little 98 struggled manfully to keep up with you guys after the finish and on the way back to Bob's. That it has about 4.5bhp (claimed) and had two of us on it might have had something to do with it. I must admit I had a great day out and cant wait for the 2010 event.

The photos of some of the head gear really made me laugh (sorry Graham). One thing I think we will do at the next one is try and ride up from Wimbledon rather than use the trailer as parking is a real problem in Wandsworth!

Ye gods!!
 

[quote=Senna3]
That is the same as my 620 Class A DD bike....

Seems to me there are way more unbalanced cranks sitting on the seats!!

:mad: You Grass!! :lol: :lol:




I'll be lucky to get 50bhp to be honest, I'm hoping my bike gets picked
random to be tested on a dyno, at least i get to see if my fueling is to pot:)

saves me £50 too:)

To hell with it all, I'm having the crank balanced on my Supersport!

Anyone with less than 50bhp will be lucky to be "randomly" selected for a dyno run I reckon. Unless they are some kind of racing god.;) - you'd need to be troubling the scorers to get some random attention - :)

There are a lot of very well sorted and high budget 583s out there, some probably able to make 53bhp with ease.

Get those bikes and yourselves on a diet, that's the key. I reckon with a lighter bike and light rider, you can obviously get off the line much more quickly than heavier bike/rider combinations and those 3 or 4 places you can make up into turn 1 would be really tough to make up anywhere else.

Tim

Can anyone tell me what modifications this bottom end has ?

I just looke at my crankshaft today and the same type of holes are present: are from factory balancing until proven otherwise (impossible to prove).

Yup and say you were to balance the crank to a finer tolerance than the factory and drill those holes a little deeper, how could this be proven, what if the factory balanced your crank better than someone elses ?

It's all up to the machinest, had my tyres balanced the other week, didn't seem right above *0 mph, took the car back, 20gms out at the front and 60gms at the back.
Same place, same machine different operator !!!!

Pot luck sometimes

No hope...just doom and chance...:devil: