Yes and No, what happens to owners of Single Disc ONLY (no lugs on other leg) 600SS's, upgrading forks, buying a 2nd disc and calliper, hoses and Mastercylinder isn't a cheap upgrade, if it was me (No I haven't got one) I would rather go SPS disc and 4 pad calliper and see how I got on, maybe a bit lees braking than a twind disc but also less rotating mass.

Rattler...forget what I said yesterday when we met..looks like a might bag a go after all.. :D:D

Nat

Taken from Desmo Due Q&A thread as this is the discussion thread


I totally agree, the terms making it INCLUSIVE and not EXCLUSIVE sum it up well.

I have the predicament of do I sell one of my current race bikes that I could if I wanted race on 30 weekends a year doing anything up to 6 races a day, in favour of a Desmo Due and do 8 races on it.

Hence my interest in a spec for the Desmo Due that would make it worth entering in a Mini Twins class with a club like North Glos that would offer me a further 12 race days a year with again 2 races a day.

Which is why I'm still WAITING to see which direction things are going before I make a decision one way or another

Here's a thought guys.

Instead of allowing all sorts of expensive mods to give the 600 the same power as the 620, why not restrict the 620 so it produces the same power as the 600? Run like this for a few years till all the 600's die a natural death then remove or gradully reduce the restriction. A simple plate with a hole in the intake would do the job. Cost buttons as well.

It is all quite interesting all that, I was actually suggesting something along those lines to Dave the other day as there is a Ducati cup in France (based on the 900SSie).

First feedback about interest for the idea. Yes I would be interested in principle as I would like to take it a step further than trackdays, yet would not want to go racing with the big boys quite yet.
No I will not make a decision before the end of the month mainly because of persoal reasons that I have many other worries on my mind at the moment. But also because this is not such an easy choice to make for me, I have already a 916 for the track, a 996 for the road and a Honda for everyday. I am not sure that I would actually sell the 916 for a SS600 even if this is to go racing. I still want to have a decent bike to do trackdays as well. Buying yet another bike is turning into madness (especially as I am also thinking of a dirt bike, etc.). I agree that this is a nice problem to have but it is a problem nevertheless for me to take up the series. I don't know if many other members are in this situation but I would feel totally undecided before making the commitment:
- Do I get a decent track bike to be enjoyed all year round on trackdays?
- Do I take up the series on a 600cc and feel frustrated on trackdays?
- Do I run 2 bikes?
- Are SS600 and M600 the right answer for the series? The worry about going cheap might not necessarily stand if the category of people that are potentially interested have to run an extra bike after all?

Second feedback
- If 600cc it is I think that the serie should allow only plain standard 600cc. You may allow 620ie when the second hand prices would be lower with the option of boring out older machines. You may start that transition in a couple of years or so.
- Just very basic mods like removing road gears, lights, allowing fiber fairing, etc
- Brakes - allow stainless hoses and whatever choice of pads. Discs will need changing as well and EBC, etc might offer cheaper options. I think that you should put restriction on calipers and master cyl but allow some lattitude on disc(s) and pads as those would require changing often. You should allow single or twin discs set ups.
- Tyres - I would go for single supplier or a small range of similar types tyres from 3 or 4 suppliers. It should be a standard road compound like Diablos (but not Corsas) and no wets allowed. Allowing a range of tyres would see most people turning up with new compound every race.

Suggestions
In light of my initial comment of some people likely to want to retain only one (decent) track bike, is there any scope for spinning off a second series like:
- open serie for any Duke?
- open serie for any road bike? (although many road bikes in the club have serious mods, so road bike does not mean much anymore)
- special serie for 748 4 valves / 900 2 valves with some restrictions on how standards bikes should be.

Cheers
philippe

"Suggestions
In light of my initial comment of some people likely to want to retain only one (decent) track bike, is there any scope for spinning off a second series like:
- open serie for any Duke?
- open serie for any road bike? (although many road bikes in the club have serious mods, so road bike does not mean much anymore)
- special serie for 748 4 valves / 900 2 valves with some restrictions on how standards bikes should be."

Thanks for all the thoughts guys, to give you an idea of where we were coming from the initial series suggestions were:

750 cup based on 750SS/Monster-my opinion was that this would be a difficult one since there aren't actually that many 750's out there.
My suggestion was to go to 900SS/monster simply because of availability-when this was fully kicked around it was finally decided to come up with the 600/620 series as it was felt that 900's would possibly be too fast for novices whereas the 600's are both available and slower/less intimidating, and cheaper!
I did suggest a 748 series but again this was felt to be too expensive as there are so many things you can do to a 4 valve motor and 'cheque book' racing would seem to be the inevitable consequence.
Having decided on 600/620's there was a lot of discussion around whether we just restricted it to standard spec 600's-possibly just monsters-with modifications limited to making them race worthy. It was then decided that since the 600 with a 680 kit would produce roughly the same peak power as a 620 but would actually cost less that we should allow 620's.
That's how we got to where we are, and from the post's so far most people are happy with things as they are structured. If you go out and buy a 620ie monster for about £3,000 you can with minimal mods race it. As an alternative you can pick up a 600SS/Monster for £1,500 or less and race that, to be competitive with the 620 you will need to spend a bit to get it to 680 but it will still be cheaper than the 620, and it will be worth less-either way it's (comparatively) cheap racing. To have an absolutely level playing field would mean us agreeing that either we use all 600's-probably monsters since they are more available, or all 620's again monsters, which would sort of go against what we are trying to do.
I'm not saying that we have got it right, but it's about the best we can do.

John

Boys,

Whilst I think that the level of discussion that this idea has produced is excellent, we can debate things till the end of the year and then end up with no racing!

No we cant get it right first time or suit everybody, what we have to do is try and accomodate as many people as we can (inclusive not exclusive).

I hope that I can get agreement in principal on two sections within the racing at the end of next week (583s & 620 + 674). If that is so will it satisfy those that are interested and close that item out?

Tyres I beleive we are close to an agreement on, my understanding being that you will be able to choose tyres from a variety of suppliers but that the size and type will be defined.

We have suggested 4 rounds eight races, merely as a means of keeping costs down in the first year. If the entrants are willing to commit financially to more rounds then they can have them I beleive.

Brakes, dont see an easy answer here but am inclined to allow the twin option, but that we tighten up on the calipers that are allowed.

Does that satisfy those that wish to enter?

Chris

All,

Having read all threads with interest here I go;

This is a great idea and IMO suits members who, maybe like me;
- like riding on trackdays!
- always wondered about racing?
- limited ££££
- own a road bike, but don't want to ruin on track - Senna 1
- or bought an ex race bike, but don't want to race it - WSS 748RS

So I'm in and agree with the keep it simple philosophy. I'm no techy and just want to race a standard bike.

I someone wants to spend £££££ to win races then good for them!, everyone will see what enabled them to win - ££££ vs talent. Congrats to carbon fibre/overbore/stickytyre guy for winning the series! (Boring)

I want to spend very little and then race......if I come 4th or 44th I don't care, I will be living out my MotoGP fantasy and having fun!

We will all know who is riding what, so the 600/620 debate is irrelavent, let's include them all and have some fun racing.

I'm sure we have all been on track days and gone past or been passed by people on more/less expensive bikes, a one make series will reduce the £££ element but never eliminate it.

So turn the hard to the stop and have fun!

Oh and a question,

Can we enter as a 'Team' with two riders taking turns for rounds?

Phew.....

Chris.

Chris,

Glad to hear your words of praise and gald that you are in!

I cannot give a catagoric yes to your team idea, but I think that you can assume that would be ok afterall it is the bike that we enter on the grid "with a rider attached".

Maybe for the 2nd year we might consider a longer race with rider changes, but I am not even oing to go there for 2005

Chris

Thanks Weeksy,

As a NOVICE I hope to stay true to my quote above.

At least for the first season!

Cheers.

I may have missed this somewhere in the various posts but instead of letting the 600's have a big bore kit why not have a weight penalty on the 620's sp power to weight is closer? Then as Paul has said the 600's will eventually die out as the 620's become more affordable and the weight penalty can be lifted on them.
Another quick question, how can I persuade SWMBO that I really should race her M600 :puzzled: :devil:

Darren

Edzachary!

Although, I may end up on a 600 ...

im interested in this for sure...but can someone please list in order for a simpleton like me what i need to do........reading all these post is just confussing..........

ie.....where do i get my license....do i have to join a club like dp..and wot bike can i buy..lol when does it start and wots the cost........

Phil

cheap n cheerfull is the order of the day..everyone on a level pegging the riding making the difference not the size of yer wallet...................

Phil.

Folks,

Friday update.

There are 7 deposits sat in the file after the post this morning.

With regard to the cost of overbore kits, the price that someone got from DLS should now be looked at as a maximum price that it will cost, it should come out cheaper. This will be finalised once we get over the 20 deposit stage.

I am having a run through end of next week about finalising the rules, but currently the following changes are likely to come into effect :

Wheels have to be std Ducati per original fitment for the model, with the exception that a 5.5 rim can be fitted to the rear.

Tyres will be from an approved list of manufacturers, sizes and types + wets. These to be defined as road legal and with a moulded tread (not wets).

A 2nd front disk will be allowed, of standard type, with original spec calipers (no trick or WSB ones) and an applicable master cylinder (no trick or WSB ones allowed).

On the front forks, no external adjusters allowed. That is std 600/620 front forks, free internals.


You can run either 583 or 620/674, to score points towards the championship. It will not be 583 only.

That I think will answer most of the questions that have been left outstanding, but feel free to contact me diirect for further explanation.

Chris

For clarification - will there ba a single class or 2 seperate ones ? ie one class for 583 and the other for 620/674?

Tim:frog:

Tim,

At present all I can say is that you will all be out together as a group. If as I expect we run with New Era, then we will award points within class/section or whatever we call it and there will be two wooden spoons on offer at the end of the series to the winners.

Currently Monty and I see this as the easiest way of resolving this issue.

We have to allow the 620 as it will be the way forward after the supply of 583s has been trashed through racing. However it is likely that in the 1st year we may have a majority of 583s.

One of the people who has sent in his deposit, should be getting a 600SS tomorrow and is going to try and get it on a dyno for us next week. At that point we will know what the relative HP values are and look at the advantages of the 674 kit. We know that a 620 with a chip puts out 62hp at the back wheel.

Chris

I'm currently in 'hovering' mode ... although I really, really like the _idea_ of racing a 600 ... there are still things that are in the air ...

:puzzled:1. I've never ridden a monster (but know that they handle much better than an ss) and am hesitant about racing without my 'bum in the air '.
SO - is it monsters-only or not ?
(and what about the old pantahs ? you can get them for under 2k !)

:puzzled:2. Stumping up 3k for a bike I might not be able to modify to suit me (ie clip-ons and rear-sets cos i'm a lanky git) does not sound like a good idea.
SO - what mods will be allowed ?

:puzzled:3. my wife wants to know why I want yet another race bike (I race a classic duc single and 2 even older velocette singles) as this so-called road-bike will end up NOT being road-legal.
SO - do we have to keep them road-legal ?

:burn:

Phil,

It is not Monsters only, I know that several people are looking at the SS option, you will also notice that the rules say that bars are free.

No you cant have a Pantah it is only for post 92 motors.

Modifications allowed are in thr rules, down loadable from the home page. You caould consider the £1500 583 SS/Monster, exhaust, shock, forks, 2nd disc and go that route (only difference as I see it is rear sets on the Monster.

With regard to road legal, the rules allow you to remove lights, etc if you want to; it doesn't say that you have to!

Chris

Now some facts about real racing ...

1. If you're really fast it doesnt matter so much what you ride cos you go past everyone on the corners.
(eg I ran my 450-single-road-bike at a brands track day and passed bikes on every corner)

2. If you have a really fast bike it doesnt matter if you're not so good on the corners cos you overtake everyone on the straights.
(eg see eg above ...)

3. (1) + (2) = racing :)

4. If a race-grid starts with the class-leaders at the front then they will probably clear off again.
This is NOT racing imho, and the guy at the back with less bottle or a slower bike will give it all up after a few races, as he will not be having enough fun.

5. If the grid is random, or has the class-leaders handicapped, the (poor) guy at the front will have butterflys, and a good time !

With New Era the first race is random grid positions (yes, I have been on pole and sh8t myself) and the second is in championship/points order.

Don't forget that most of us will also be eligible for the Novice race too!

thats an old '94 600 weeksy - 45bhp I reckon if that:o oh, how I long for a 620......

How much?????
 

I'd really be interested in doing this, but dunno whether to commit myself to a bike (£1000?), one piece leathers (£300 min), license & ACU test (£250?), entry fee's (£200 each!!!) PLUS transport (or can I fit the bike in the back of Alison's Yaris?) and extra life insurance to keep Alison happy!
Would it be cheaper to get an ex-raced CB500 and get more races in that series next year?

Yup,there is no such thing as cheap racing!
As for a grand for a bike,has anyone had a look at what you get for the money?I did'nt realise how many old nails there were out there.I saw one poor M regd Monster this weekend in Italia.The mechanic that stripped it down best described it as scrap.Well I think that was what he said.Some cheapies on Ebay at the mo,buyer beware.

Your right Keith cheapest 600 I've seen so far is a early monster for £1400, cheapest SS (my prefered choice) so far is £1800, by the time belly pan and a few other mods are carried out it would cost as much as i'm asking for my 748 that I raced at Silverstone a week ago.

What a great discussion platform this has become.

MT - I think a new forum might be necessary for Desmo Due Racing.

What a shame that a) I've only recently bought myself a very cheap Jap trackbike and b) I love idea of racing in a 'semi-controlled' environment but dont have the necessary skills yet - 2006 hopefully ???

For my 10 cents worth - I think the regs are going the right way - as 'standard' as possible while making the bikes handle well enough on the track.

Monsters v SS??? - Let em both in I say - the more the merrier but, fuel inj goes abit against the grain with me somehow - personal view.

I'll also put my hand up to be a helper in any way possible - hands on bike locally (as I'm quite used to playing with an SS now :D ) or in any other way paper/web wise.

Final thought - how about an endurance race at the end of the season as well :) 1 hour anyone !!!

Good luck all !!! - Frank

That's inspired! Doesn't need to count towards the championship, but would be a brilliant end to the season. How about it Chris??

Ali

Sounds interesting.
What WJB says looks to be true - to get a full grid may well mean intigrationg it within a.n.other series and that may well be the CB / Hornets.

To give you some idea of the speeds / lap times from '04 MiniTwins:


Circuit Lap Record
Brands Hatch (Indy) 0:51.83
Brands Hatch (GP) 1:39.53
Cadwell Park (Full) 1:40.08
Lydden Hill 0:44.25
Oulton Park 1:54.35
Pembrey 1:07.67
Silverstone (Club) 1:09.56
Snetterton 1:16.27

Remember this sort of racing is not without incident, I think it was at Pembrey (in June?) that the MT series had a fatality during a race incident.

Best of luck guys and gals (?).

Tim

They were dynoing the Hornets at Donington on Sunday. A nice, fully sorted one was making 81hp at the back wheel. Sounded gorgeous as well! Need a lot of work to get an M600 up to that sort of power.

Hmm,Italia have a 600SS in stock.Its way too good for what you guys want it for.Its absolutely mint and up for 2600.They also have a couple of nice Monsters,but not cheap.
I reckon if you could pick up a Monster for 1400,it would cost nearly a grand to get it something like race ready.
The forks/shock and brakes need upgrading.(They were'nt that good when new!)
Upswept exhaust.(If a numpty like me can ground them on the road,they definately need to be up,out of the way for racing)
Clip-ons and steering damper.(That should calm the front end a bit)
Then there's sticky tyres,sprockets,chains etc,etc,and so on.

You would! :frog:

Except by is a buy - non?

Steve I think your right a lot of people may be put off by the prospect of mixed races, but surely the idea of a minimum of 25 participants is that they can have there own race and there will be room for a few more if they want to join in at a later stage.

Tim (aws)- regards your comment I was told it was Lyden

Here are samples of a couple of results from the North Glos SoT/Minitwins races, that show just how well a 72bhp Minitwin can do against more powerful oppostion. In the Silverstone example the 996 is the one raced by Weeksy the weekend before at Donington

Pembrey
7 58 Nigel Reed Suzuki SV 650 MT JHS Racing 01:03.91 81.99
8 10 Tom Luton Ducati SoT Louigi Moto 01:03.79 82.14
My best time on a 916 is in the 1:07s

Silverstone club circuit

6 10 Tom Luton Ducati 996 SoT Louigi Moto 01:09.96 84.33
7 58 Nigel Reed Suzuki SV 650 MT JHS Racing 01:10.97 83.13

I may be doing a deal with my GSXR600 against a ZXR400 so may well be racing 400s next year.

I was/am under the impression that either we get enough to run this on our own grid or not at all. It would rather defeat the object of all this if we ended up sharing with another series surely?

I went out on the other half's 36,000 mile-old 750ss yesterday for a few laps of the odd roundabout and reckon that I could go race it tomorrow if it was a 600!

Sure it would be better (in my head?) if I spent money on modded forks, new shock, clip ons, rearsets etc but would all those bits would win races without me actually riding the thing properly - I think not!

Also, don't forget that if you do buy a bike it can always be sold at the end of the season. Maybe not for what it cost but no one said racing was cheap.

So I am going to send in my cheque so at least I won't have to spend next year thinking " I wish that there was a cheap Ducati series, it could have been a good crack....."

PS Anyone wanna buy a 916-engined 888 road legal trackbike??

Folks,

The postman has been and I am not seeing any cheques through my door, please get them in the post ASAP as we should be finalising the rules end of this week, no surprises expected and looking to lock down which Club(s) we go with next week.

Chris

weeksy for once i agree with you ... come on folks put your cheque where your mouths are ... if we don't get near to the 25 figure then it's not going to happen .... i'm in and i'm happy for the precise rules to be sorted later.... what we need now is a commitment rather than hot air so that the whole thing can be taken further.
:roll:

all you maybes, you dont have to worry about being last, unless I manage to lose 3 stone and find another 1500 pounds I will be last or first! (into the gravel trap). I cant think of a better way to improve your speed and track riding which is why I am doing this. I will be spending the absolute minimum neccarsary as I agree with kev and weeksy the rider is a more important factor, as i said in my case perhaps a zx10 will even things out a bit!!:frog:

dave

Yep - I've procrastinated for long enough!!!!

Cheque will be in the post today!!!

Tim:frog:

"procrastinated"-blimey Tim, big word for a wet Tuesday afternoon.:lol:

John

Weeksy is spot on, like him I have already commited to next year, and cannot afford another bike, otherwise my cheque would have been in weeks ago! ( although, unlike Weeksy, I won't claim it would be an easy option! :P)

Get yer entries in fellas, and you as well Redruth, and Lily, come on !!!!!
:bouncy::bouncy::bouncy::bouncy::bouncy::bouncy::b ouncy::bouncy: