Paul (psychlist) as you have made an accusation of me I will answer it. I have not at any time asked a member of the webteam to look at your messages. I think that you will acknowledge that when I have a question of you I will ask it in public (or using the MT section of this board).

Lily I cannot answer your question I am afraid as I have not been on the webteam since we have been using the new software, - sorry I was trying to be helpful in relation to what I as a member of the MT have seen. As I have not asked the webteam before if they can look at somebody’s PM’s I do not know what the outcome of doing so would be.

It is probably best that Eamonn answers the specifics on this new board, - and I am sure that he can answer the question on data protection, - I have an understanding of it as it has been discussed within MT meetings and basically there is no infringement of the data protection act as despite misconceptions anything posted here antyhing posted is the property of the DSC, as is the case of all messageboards; somebody owns them.

This is what should happen yes. There seems to be far too much of something going on for it all to be conspiricy and rumour ! About time it was all done away with and a new broom put in place - to rescue whats flippin left :rolleyes:

you could have argued this was the same with British Government over last 3 years...

However, there's a term to be served, right or wrong, the MT are here for the duration of it..

2 options really for all of us.

1. Bitch moan whine and shout at them
2. Live with it and vote them out at AGM.

You (the paid up members) have given control of your club (voluntarily) to some people (MT) who you voted in - now your not happy with their behaviour (totally understandable) and you are acting as if you are either powerless to do anything about it or you like bitching but cant be bothered to do anything about it or you dont know you (the paid up members) can do something about it or you are too afraid to say anything or maybe I have just misread the situation and you are all totally happy and banging on about it and this thread is normal DSC behaviour!!!!!

Censorship - unacceptable
immature management of DD situations - unacceptable
Dictating who can and who cant do this that and the other - unacceptable
Reading PM's - TOTALLY unacceptable and unforgivable
Starting a load of sh*te on this thread - unacceptable and ban worthy

Being on the MT is a privilege - isnt it?? - being responsible for representing your fellow Ducatisti - who voted you in - in the first place.

Threads less worthy than this one (originally started by MT) have been deleted!!!!

Its a bleedin bike club . . .

we own bikes
we ride/race bikes
we help eachother
we trade stuff

how bloody complicated can it get - get rid of management - stop all the pointless committee meetings (they solve NOTHING) - form a club based on common goals/interests in mind and get on with enjoying life - nobody needs to be incharge - maybe thats the root of the problem.

As for those power-crazed, control-freaky, dictatorial, ego-centric - sad individuals on the MT (you know who you are) you really need to sort yourselves out guys and resign immediately to save at least some of your dignity OR sort this sh*te out now!!!!

Khushy
(preparing to be a flamed, b banned, c sent to bloody Coventry (ewwww)

Yes but there should be provision in cases of extreme unrest that an egm can be called and voted off with immediate effect isn't there ?

The governement we 'have' to live - surely thats not the same for a club ?

Paul,

For the avoidence of doubt I can state here in public the following:

1) That I cannot personally access personal messages of Members
2) That I do not have even moderator status on this board
3) That at no time have I asked or instructed a member of the WEBteam to look at peoples personal messages on my behalf

I have no knowledge of what you allude to and would ask that you retract immeadiately.

Lynn, - all members signed to accept the club rules/constitution/terms(?) that are on the back of your membership form, there is no provision for an EGM within those rules. The MT have agreed (they did not have to, but listened to requests and opinion) to a new constitution/rules to which all members were invited for input, - 1 member turned up at the meeting!

Steve the members cannot vote the MT out at the AGM, it's not part of the constitution from memory, in fact I doubt think there's anyway for a member to do anything with regards to MT and it's members apart from walk with your feet and your cash.I might be wrong though as there should be a new constitution now????

now we are trying to . . .
 

cover our own arse!!!!

Is it april 1st - this now getting comical.

Khushy

Thats what I thought :confused:

Really ? So it's not a 'club' then ? Because thats not how I see a 'club' working at all :confused: In fact - is that even legal ?

Ian,My understand was the new constitution was brought about because the old "existing" constitution was not legal and was heavily flawed and contradicted itself on several points????

ha ha ha
 

well suited to the DSC then???


Khushy

oy, slow down - its taking me ages to copy & paste, just in case the thread gets pulled:o :D

Ian,

My comment referred to your opening line in that e-mail, which you may have felt was justified given my 11th hour involvement in the constitution redrafting, or it may simply have been an inoccuous introduction to the main body of your text.

The thought that 'you were aware' of something, in the light of these revelations about PM's, does make me very uncomfortable. As we haven't discussed anything directly, you may have gleaned this particular 'awareness' from another member's comments, rather than from PM's, in which case I apologise.

In the words of Paul James, I am a staunch member of the DSC and I shall wait for the AGM to raise this, and other issues. In the meantime, I shan't be using 'PM's' until we are all assured that they are what they claim to be, private.

Come on Charlotte I know you're quicker than this :DFrom memory the existing constitution was heavily leaning towards the MT rather than it's members, the members didn't have much if any say of who's on the MT and what happens to the DSC's funds and who's accountable etc. I'm sure I could probably find the old constitution and the old posts regarding the issues back then...I guess if needed I/we could clarify the need for a new constitution by contacting Gizmo.... he'll be in darkest Wales today as he's down there doing some testing, but I'm sure he's contactable if needed ;)

Jon:p
I think the MT need to question WHY there was such a poor turnout to consult over this document.
From the one that AK got, I raised my eyebrows just a tad, in suprise that Gizmo had not quite covered items that should have been covered.
Maybe these points were raised by emails tho from members - no doubt you will see them in the next pronto tho :)
(I have been involved in doing 2 constitutions for a national club and also an International club, so like to think I have a reasonable idea as to what ought to be there :smug: :lol: )

Ref the electing of the MT at the AGM (has been mentioned on several threads today) at present only 3 of the current MT stand down at the beginning of the AGM,(as they are not able to serve more than 3 years without re-election at present) they are then eligible for re-election at the AGM.
Anyone else who wishes to stand has to get their nomination to the MT within a certain time before the AGM, along with info about how their skills can be of service to the MT in the job.
However, what I cant find (and didnt in 2004, 2005 & 2006), is information as to WHO is going to step down each year, until you actually get the the AGM.

This will prove a bit of a problem for prospective MT members, in not knowing which positions to apply for.

Finally, of the total number on the MT at present there are a couple of people - who having been co-opted since the AGM was held - cannot vote on any issues at the MT meetings.

However, I stand to be corrected about my comments on the above.

C:)

Ruth, - I do not doubt your staunchness.


Lynn it would actually be more illegal to change the terms that members have signed up to, although questioning the legality of a private members club is quite strange, - a private members club can be whatever it wants to be as long as it does not operate outside of the law, - although even then it can, - golf clubs with men only areas (???). The club constitution could have insisted on ownership of Red Ducati’s only!!! - people have a choice when they join, - read the rules, agree with them, join; so the MT has a duty to stick to those rules for the term of their membership. The MT cannot change the constitution at the drop of a hat as members have signed to join the club under that constitution; - notice has to be given to all members that their terms of membership are going to change, thereby giving all members the opportunity to say that they do not agree with them so they will not renew. In truth a new constitution should be voted in at the next AGM, and then it come into being at the following AGM; members have a right to operate under the rules that they signed for (sorry repeating myself). However the MT are going to put out a recommendation to the entire membership via post that the new constitution is accepted and carried forward from the next AGM.

JPM, - my take on the change of constitution was that times have changed, so we needed different rules inline with website use, and different positions within the MT etc.. As I have said above a private members constitution cannot really be illegal as members have a choice to abide by the rules and join, - nobody is forced. If potential members were not shown the rules then there would be a case, - or if we changed those rules part way through their membership.

The truth is that the MT did not have to listen to the request for change, - we could have thrown it out using the existing rules, - a member could have proposed it to be heard at the next AGM, a year taken for deliberation and then it come into being at the 2008 AGM. The MT has a massive image issue right now (something that I said in Saturday’s MTM), in my opinion it needs somebody like Lily who works in this field to work with us to get us back on line, - the very sad thing with all of this is that pre the last AGM I think a lot of people had some very good ideas about change for the club, but since that AGM, the personal campaign against certain members of the MT has continued (even an attempted vote at the Cadwell meeting) as has the campaign to take away a member asset from the members. It was clear to me at Brands SBK that members have had enough of the continued politics, - it has got to a point of the MT now having to do something, before the club implodes.

CK, - membership of the MT has to be ratified by the membership, - are you saying that I could bring in a mate, co-opt him or her in up until the AGM and they could vote on material decisions to do with the club? I am sure that you would complain if that was the case. Those members of the MT (Paul S and Flanks) who are not ratified are just as able to put across their points at a meeting as I am. – And actually Flanks did vote on Saturday as although his vote may not be official his opinion was required for the record.

I'd suggest you read the current club rules Ian......

The new constitution can be proposed by MT NOW - under the terms of the current rules a majority of members must disagree for it not to go ahead ( no procedures are outlined, another example of the poor wording and lack of accountability). this would mean the new rules are in place prior to AGM and members can then get the democratic changes they requested at last AGM. Delaying it will only cause further problems and could be perceived as some as another attempt to maintain a status quo.

Under the current rules MT can do almost whatever they like and without consultation, this is not a satisfactory situation for any "members club" and needs addressing quickly, the consequences of not doing so are plain to see.

I think you are misinterpreting what I am trying to say, (probably because I did not write it well enough). I agree that the MT can put out the new constitution now. But as you will appreciate we could hide behind the existing constitution and leave it for the AGM. I am not saying that we will, or that it was ever our intention to do so, - I was trying to point out that perhaps we are not the big bad bunch of controlling ogres that some accuse us of being. Hey the existing rules we the MT could vote to get rid of whoever we want to, with no consultation or justification or right to appeal ! !

Member input is important, - but equally the MT needs to be allowed to manage, - the communist utopian ideal of some where no committee is required just would not work with a club with the financial and liability responsibilities that we have. The only resistance to change that has been from the MT has only ever been to resist personal vendetta.

Ian
Wiith the greatest of respect, you haven't answered Gizmo's point. Can you do so please, asap?

When someone suggests a course of action, it is not sufficient to respond with a list of actions you do not intend to pursue. It is the course of action suggested you need to address.

Loz

sorry Loz, - was n't trying to be obtuse, I am not sure that Gizmo actually asked a question. Trying to read it again and can't see a question mark.

I think Khushy makes some valuable points here.

I am an MT member. I was voted in at the last AGM to try and breathe some new life into the DSC regions. As Khushy says, being on the MT is a real privilege, not because there is any financial reward, nor are there any perks - it's just hard and often thankless work. I'm not whinging about this, I knew that any work I did on the clubs behalf would be expected of me by the membership otherwise why would I volunteer for it. What I mean about privilege is that I personally feel honoured that the members of this club see fit to have me represent them.

Why did I put myself up for MT membership? Quite simply because when I started riding Ducatis there were no other clubs apart from this one and the DOC (and I decided this one was less crusty). The rise of the internet means that there are now other places for Ducati addicts to get their fix, but back then there was no Ducatisti forum and there was no DuN, this was the place to be. Through this club, it would not take too much of a stretch of the imagination to say it has changed my life for the better. I have discovered a whole raft of Ducati related things to enjoy but most importantly I have discovered a whole new group of friends all over the country. In my local region I'm truly proud to say that the people that I've met through the DSC have become some of the best friends that I've ever had. That is why I put myself up for MT membership - simply to try and give something back for all that I've gained.

What saddens me is that the club has developed a faction of people for whom the MT is seen as their sworn enemy. There are different groups of people for whom the MT can do nothing right, all for their own reasons. People have their individual reasons for this animosity towards the MT. Perhaps they have had arguements with individual MT members in the past, perhaps they don't always agree with the direction that the MT is taking, perhaps they feel aggrieved or persecuted by the MT, perhaps they simply have a personal hatred of individual MT members or a personal agenda that contradicts what the MT try to do for the club, maybe grievances from the DD race series have spilled over to the mainstream of the DSC, perhaps they are intolerant of any mistakes made by the MT.

Whatever the reasons and however this viewpoint of the MT has arisen, it seems that detractors of the MT have tarred all of us with the same brush. We are portrayed as some sort of scheming, power crazed egotists who want nothing more than complete, draconian, orwellian control of the club, everyone in it and everything to do with it.

This is not completely without reason. I agree with all the comments Khushy has made about censorship, poor management (or more likely inexperienced management of rapidly changing requirements) and particularly about the lack of privacy in PM's. This is all unacceptable and must stop.

However, it is also unacceptable to accredit the whole MT with evil and malicious intent, or to single out MT actions as persecution. The facts are that on a board with so many people on it there will be the inevitable nastiness that occurs between people. How to deal with inappropriate postings is not an enviable task, particularly when factional infighting breaks out. Where do you draw the line about what constitutes censorship? If we didn't censor anything how long would it be before bigotted, nastiness breaks out?

It is also disingenuous to promote the view that the MT are an unelected dictatorship, if you really care about the club, if you feel so passionately that the current MT are a bunch of no-hopers, then change it. You can put yourself forward for election to an MT position and get voted in.

I intend to put myself forward for re-election because I cling to the hope that this club still has the ideas and the energy to offer events and activities of real value to anybody who owns and rides a Ducati, that it can even extend a friendly hand to people who own any other type of bike or even no bike at all. Other forums such as DuN and Ducatisti do a fine job, but I believe that this club offers that little bit more that the other forums do not necessarily see as their purpose in life. Anybody who went to the 2 day trackday at Cadwell, or actually went to any DD meetings or went to the BMF would see that the DSC does go that little bit further. The other forums don't run themselves, there's some fine work going on behind the scenes from some selfless, harworking and dedicated individuals, but if you want to undertake more than that, you will need people who are willing to step up to the plate and put the work in to organising stuff. In other words, if you tried to do the things that the DSC does without an MT, you would soon find that you would need an MT and have to invent one.

I would just like to appeal for calm. We have a great club, but it is not immune to people making mistakes, acting in a politically inept way or just being plain clumsy in trampling on other peoples ideas. I believe that there is a vision for the way forward (at least there is in my mind), even if that vision is difficult to see given that there's a tempest blowing a lot of dust around right now.

I also believe that as we approach next year, we will colectively be able to lay out those ideas and visions and develop them into real deliverable activities that will be of value to everyone in the club. Given the chance and mutual respect between the MT and the people that vote for them I believe that we can do this.

Somebody put forward the proposition that this club is childlike and I have had this analogy in mind for several months now.

When the club was in it's infancy it didn't have any real idea of what it wanted to do, but the sun shone and everything it did was fun - just like it was when you were 7 years old. Now the club has reached it's teenaged years, it's started to get a bit more ambitious and push the boundaries, started to take on risky things. At this stage it also has a lot of hormones flying about and some days wakes up hating itself, and the rest of the world, without really knowing why. Adolescence is a painful time, I can't wait until we grow up.

No thats not satisfactory at all.

Ian - re the meeting that only one attended - was a new consitution put in place at this meeting ?

Also apologies if all this has been done - but frankly I haven't taken much notice - it's only recent events that have drawn my attention to how this club is run rightly or wrongly. A few things have been said which raised my interest and one of them being the lack of clarity re being able to vote out alleged or deemed unsatisfactory influences.

No worries, Ian
Nope, no question in Gizmo's post and no reference to a question in mine, either. It was Gizmo's points that I ask you to address, not any questions.

You took the time to respond to Gizmo's post, I'm simply asking if you will take a bit more time to respond to the points he raised. Thank you.

I have many times and read at least 2 points out loud to the MT on Saturday!




It is about to be proposed by the MT with the recommendation to the membership to accept it.



I am not sure if they can be, but would bow to superior knowledge and other MT input on this. I could be wrong with my assumption that the new constitution would come into play at the AGM and not before. My thoughts are that we would have to give reasonable notice time for their adoption; - I have no objection for them to be adopted tomorrow, and get us moving forward in a positive way.



Yep, current rules that all members agreed to when joining give the MT a lot of power and questionable accountability, - I have never denied that. The rules were written to guard against hostile take over which was a potential threat when the club was starting. I would rather look forward to what we can do to move this club forward.

Ian
Thank you for responding. All that's needed now is action.

Cheers,
Loz

Lynn, the draft was discussed, but was still to be subject to further amendments. There is currently no right enshrined in this draft for members to vote anyone out.

Thanks hun.

It is surely not beyond us to come up with a method of MT selection/election/ejection that protects the club from both hostile takeover from without and a hypothetical MT member acting against the best interests of the Club.
Come on, people, this isn't the UN, it's a bike club! Let's work on this!

what happened sat eve then?? just being nosey, pm if you dont want to air any more laundry :)

I'll check my pm's and send you the full email if you like Bradders, well, it's one groups representation of what happend :)

thanks guys....have to say much of it makes sense outside looking in.

good luck to those attmpting to resolve this

Is all this venting of disquiet and frustration just an extension of todays total feeling of not having a voice or say in anything that directly affects us all.

rubbish collections every 2 weeks nobody wants it but your getting it.
micro chips in your bins to spy on you.
building houses for people that dont have any right to be here and bumping up house prices so our children cant afford them because they dont qualify for all those freebies given to immigrants.
speed cameras that bring in taxation that Gordon didnt get from your pension pot.
being persecuted for being a christian in a christian country.
police that do the governments dirty work instead of working for the public.
judges that should be living with the Clangers on their planet.
NHS that's running out of money put in by you and me thats spent on medical tourists and again illegal immigrants.

The DSC is just an extension of life just change MT for number 10/11 and you get the picture TB started the revival and wont let go of Big Bears chair grand illusions of world domination (Iraq/Afghanistan).
all that infighting has taken their eye off the real issues just like us.

its the only pleasure we all got brought together in the first place the love of beautifull bikes that bring out the best of any rider.
even if the Club did fold the bikes remain the same as do the people that ride them those you get on with and those you dont thats life it will not change its human nature.
All clubs commitees are the same people join change things get bored and move on.

ian

I rate this thread a Five :)