Desmo Due 2005 Q & A
 

Folks,

Having had some long conversations with Monty over the last few days, we have thought it best to start a new thread which is only to be used for questions and answers for the rules, etc and not for general debate, please use the existing thread.

We will accordingly respond to questions posed on this thread with our thoughts and allow discussion on the existing thread.

Chris

can i just ask are the rules that are laid out already definitely the ones that the series is going ahead with or are they still up for change/amendment?

Ok to start with some of the items that have already been raised.

1) Eligable bikes

The primary requirement is for us to acheive at least 25 bikes to take to a grid. At the moment if the majority of entrants wish to use only 583cc carbed models, then we dont have a problem. As long as we acheive our numbers

If we need to include 620cc fuel injected ones to make up numbers, then we need to allow the 583cc ones to have a big-bore kit or run two classes. I will be able to confirm the two classes within the grid once we have seen the ACU at end of the month.

2) Frame mods

Per CK's post, I see no reason why a Monster with a tail chop couldn't be allowed on the grid. However that would be the only surgery to a frame that would be allowed. The minimum weight limit stays in force.

The reasoning behind this was to allow people to keep them stock, so they can be returned to road spec and sold if required. We do not want to devalue the reasale for the odd 10th of a second on lap times.

3) Tyres

If the people who are entering are happy to go with a choice of say a couple of tyres (make, pattern & sizes), which we know will keep costs down, then I see no reason to not implement it.

4) Brakes

It is suggested that we tighten the rules on brakes, to state that only the original spec master cylinder, rotors and calipers can be used. A 2nd disc and caliper can be added to single front applications, as it was originally an option.

Braided lines can be fitted.

1. Will the series run on its own on the track or be combined with another series?

2. Assuming that the bike's mechanical running costs would be a total of £2K-£2.5K including tyres, fuel, etc and costs for transporting the bike etc, what additional costs would be incurred? ie, approx how much for race entries, ACU licence, any other external costs? Any hidden charges?

3. What are your timescales for making a decision on whether the series will run or not? How many people are required and by when? I realise there is an initial end of Oct deadline, but this is presumably just to measure intial interest and judge the viability? How many entries are ultimately required?

Tim:frog:

With regard to the rules, these have been submitted to the New Era/ACU for general approval.

As such we can make some of the changes that I have outlined above, without changing the nature of the series.

The aim is any fine tuning is to cut cost or make the racing closer, rather than any fundamental changes

Tim,

The aim is most definately that we have our own grid, without having to mix with others we dont knw. This will be down to teh numbers that we can get on the grid, hence the 25 minimum.

Race entries should be no more that £130 per day and there should be no additional costs and certainly no hidden cost.

We need to be in a position to make a decision on go/no-go at the end of October and at the latest by the NEC. Realistically we need to have 25 deposits to be able to comit without incurring a massive exposure for the Club in terms of financial support.

As I understand it the maximum number that we can run is 36 on a grid.

Given the level of interest shown, I think that we have a go situation at this time.

Why tighten this rule, some 600ss only have a single disc fitment (no lugs on the other leg) and a improvement could be done to the braking by using other standard Ducati parts.
Can the rule not allow the use of any OEM Ducati part. A double disc upgrade on a a original Spec master cylinder for a single disc model may not be a sensible move.

Can we see a head count so far, preferably with definites and maybes !

License Regs?
 

It states in the rules about restircint entries to people who have held a UK license for over two years. Now, I glossed over this thinking that if I could get an ACU license it would be cool. Perhaps I was too hasty in being the first entrant in the series.

I have held a motorcycle license in Aus for just over 10 years (since I was 18) but I've only recently changed it over for a UK one. I got it at the start of Sep.

I know that Phill (phillc that is) is also considering the series and is in the same boat as me.

Chris/MT, can we get this cleared up to understand whether we can race in this series or not?

Thanks.

TP

[Edited on 11-10-2004 by tp-996]

With regard to the brakes, I am only making that change as a suggestion, I cerainly would rather stay with the current arrangements, which means yes you can have the newer calipers (04s I think) but you cant have radial, etc.

The licence thing will not apply to you Tony as your Australian years count. The only people this affects is those under 20 of which I do not expect many.

Woohoo!

Thanks for clearing that up Chris.

Tony,

My pleasure!

Steve,

Please see the post I have just put up on the other thread, but as this is a means of moving up from track days to racing, lets keep some control on it. As the father of a 17 year old who knows no fear, there is no way that I want to be out on track with that type of holigan, if I am just getting into racing for the 1st time or in my case after about 25 years of the track.

Chris
Is the preffered plan to have 2 classes? Or by allowing 600s to run big-bores would this mean a single class (if you allowed 620s)?

If I can run either a 600 or 620 in the same class, then the 620 would be my choice, but not if you don't include them in the first place. If I was to go for a 600, then I'd have no plans to fit a big bore kit or similar to a 600, as if I was to compete, it would really be a "tape the lights up, fill up the tank and go" type approach (well maybe a bit more, but you take my point, certainly no engine mods) and I wouldn;t want to be overly dissadvantaged from the off if I was not to run the later 620 model.

I understand that the final rules have yet to be defined, and appreciate that he rules will allow 600s to be overbored so that riders on these can have similar power, but I think that the quicker the rules are finalised the better.

If I can run a 620 I'll get one of them, if I can't, I'll get a 600 - Will you allow 620s???

Allowing us to have input in to these rules is appreciated, but probably makes your job more difficult rather than easier.. I appreciate all your efforts with this and wouldn't want your job!!!!:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Thanks
Tim:frog:

[Edited on 11-10-2004 by Rattler]

Tim,

Neil & I worked these rules out on the basis that the 620 does have a significant advantage over the 583 to the tune of about 25% in power terms, mainly I think as it has a better head and injection.

In view of that we assumed that most people would like to try with a 620, but that they might not want the necessary commitment (£3k) to purchase one. As there is a large pool of 600 Monsters out there, that appear to be available from £1500 upwards, how could we get them on a level playing field. The perceived wisdom was to allow over bores, which should get them within 2-3bhp of each other.

My current view is that it would be better to be inclusive rather than exclusive and allow both engines, overbores on 583sfor those that want to and both types of bike (Monster & SS).

If the worst comes to the worst then we could always have 3 sections to the results :

1) 583 std

2) 674 overbores on 583s

3) 620 injected

That way as the years go by and as the 583s come to the end of their usefull life, there can be a gradual transition to the 620 engine for people, again they should be getting cheaper.

If we can keep people with 5hp of each other, by dynoing the bikes at a time the organsers see fit (but not announced to the competitors) to police the 70hp limit, then in all reality rider ability and weight is going to have a bigger impact than the type of bikes ridden.

Remember the aim here is to allow people to get into racing (which is inheritantly expensive) whilst controling the costs involved. Mainly you shouldn't be able to exercise ones cheque book and gain a signifant advantage over the guy who spends a lot of time sorting out his bike.

Chris

Why a 674cc limit?
Why not make it 680,there is already all the stuff to do this in the Monster DP catalogue.

The Ducati Performance over bore kit gives you 674cc not 680cc.

Sorry we had already worked that one out, but perhaps not communicated it effectively.

Chris

Ah,thanks for that.
The catalogue says its a 680 kit.They speak with forked tongue methinks!

In that case, as I have said from the start of these threads, why not make it a series for bog standard carby 600's. Full stop.

SS or Monster, it wouldn't matter, but what you would do by doing that is.

1) Remove the possibility of people simply being able to flash the cheque book and spend twice as much on the bike to get the extra ponies of a newer 620ie

2) Remove the need for carby 583 owners to spend shed loads on big bore kits

3) Get the base cost of the bike as low as possible and just about even stevens for everyone

4) Remove the ambiguity and make the race preparation down to lockwire and catch tanks

After that, if it was real cheap racing you're after, make everyone run on one set of standard road tyres per meeting (wet or dry), and make those road tyres something like Bridgestone 020's so that they last half a season (and so that richer folks gain no advantage by being able to run the stickiest gumball Metzlers and a set of wets)

Jools,

have to say I dont have a problem with any of your comments, the oonly proviso being that at least 25 people need to sign up and get their deposits down for std 600 (583cc) racing, with control tyres.

Please start letting me know which way you boys want to go.

Chris

Cheers Chris...

I don't want to bang on about it but...there's already posts about the price of a 680 kit (which turns out to be an actual displacement of 673.8)...

It's £800. I rest my case.

Jools,

You're 100% right.
Ray.

Jools,

I'm with you on this one. Bog standard 583cc, standard engine internals. 10% max weight reduction. Loads of them around for decent cash.

If the reason for the series is top get people Ducati racing then there can be no cheaper way to do it.

I must admit I'd like the choice of a Pirelli tyre but would run with a control tyre if required.

Cheers,

Ali

I assume the idea is for the series to run for several seasons???

If so it is better to let the newer bikes in from the start, as these will become easier to find second hand (and Cheaper) each year. Whereas the older ones will be harder to come by.

:burn:

I thought about the 600 only rule and I too thought this would be a good idea, but I remember the comment that Lizzie made - what if you already have a 620ie and wanted to take part in the racing? Would you sell the bike to buy an older monster or purchase another monster purely to race? It doesn't make sense to do that if you're in that position.

I too don't like the thought of control tyres - surely any "road legal" tyre is enough to suit the purpose?

My two-pennorth:

How much increase does a K&N and Dynojet kit give a carbed 600?

Maybe a 620 limited to exhaust changes versus 600 with filter/dynojet/exhaust changes, but no big-bore kits would keep costs down and not handicap the carbed bikes?

Brakes - how about standard (not cast iron or wavy) discs with any master cylinder? To be honest I have ridden a single disc bike and wouldn't fancy doing a race meeting at Oulton/Silverstone/Snetterton on one disc!

Tyres- If you choose (how?) a control tyre, it will always suit some more than others - so leave it free. If people want to spend £200 on a set of wets they will, but at least they won't be the ones to have wasted their bike prep money and entry fees if it pours with rain all meeting........

Cheers,
Paul

Well said Paynep.
especially the tyres - control tyres never suit everyone, eg. I don't like how Michelins give loads of grip, but little warning they are about to run out of grip, whereas with Dunlops you get slightly less grip but loads of warning.


[Edited on 12-10-2004 by STEVE M]

Agree with most of what Paul (Paynep) posted, except the brake bit.

Again I would like to point out that some 600SS only come with calliper lugs on one leg. Fit a cast Disc and 4 pad calliper to one of these along with a aeroquip hose and braking will be hugely improved.

Also bear in mind that on older bikes (some could be 10 years old) the discs will have a fair bit of wear by now and may need replacing and I think you'll find a new EBC prolite would make a sensibly priced replacement.
http://www.ngroadracing.org/phpBB2/v...626&highlight=

As cost appears to be a issue for most people I don't expect to see people using tyre warmers and generators.

[Edited on 12-10-2004 by skidlids]

Why not? Surely that's the situation everyone is in? If you have a 748, 916, 996, 999, ST, Multistrada or whatever you're still in a position where you have to decide to purchase another bike purely to race or even sell the one you've got if that is the only way you're going to afford to race. Why should a 620ie owner be any different just because their base bike is closer to the regs than mine?

In any case, think about the market the 620ie Monster or SS is aimed at. Surely they're the 'my first Ducati' owner? Probably a first time 'big bike' for some or a commuter for others? Let's face it the type of person who buys one of these as their road bike isn't really the type of person who has performance at the top of their priority list when choosing bikes are they? Are they really the type of person who is going to think, "I know, I've been riding 6 months now I'll start racing"? Even if they did would they then race their road bike with all the risk of totalling it and not being able to ride to work? I don't think so.

And, final thought, just how many people are in this position? Who in the DSC has a 620ie and is gagging to race it? I bet there's no-one, but even if there is they're still gonna be in the minority when stacked up against the owners of other bikes who will have to buy a race bike.

So, I still say 600 carby only. £1000-1500 ish for a reasonable bike, £10 for a bit of lockwire, £50 for a catch tank and race the tit5 off it. Keep everything standard, it'll be the same for everyone.

Brakes, well what's wrong with a single disc if everyone has one? They'll all have to brake earlier. longer braking area = more chance of overtaking on the brakes for the brave? In any case you could say you're allowed four brake pads, then you could have a twin disc setup with ordinary brembo goldlines or a single disc with a pad per piston (if two pad per piston brakes are good for stopping a 999R from 170 I'm sure that a single one would cope with a 600)

Control tyres? They don't have to be a single control tyre, just limited to a type of tyre. If the idea is to stop 'cheque book' racing do you want to allow the rich blokes to throw on a fresh set of the stickiest tyres for every race? and wets if it's raining? Nightmare, spiralling costs straight away.

Why not say you can choose from a single similar class of tyre? Why not a choice of Pirelli Diablo's, Bridgestone 014's, Dunlop 207RR's, Michelin Pilot Sport etc..Reasonable fast road/ occasional track day tyres that should be grippy enough for anyone in the dry, and you use the same in the wet. Sure you won't go as fast as someone on snotball rentecs or full wets, but neither will anyone else 'cos they'll all be on the same type of tyre.

oooooh get you! ;)

see what you're getting at though.

the rules are already set and as far as i can see they are reasonable. they will always be someone that feels they could be changed to suit them better/make it fairer/cheaper etc. tough titties. thats life. happens all the time.

im sure hodgson would like the motogp rules changed or more money spent on his bike or HRC/yamaha given a cap on their budget to help him too, but he just gets on with it.

thats what we should do. those that want to can send their cheques in those that dont, dont. simple.

its great that people have taken the time and trouble to try and get this off the ground and where we can we should support it. if if doesnt float your boat fine. but it would be great for all concerned if its a success.

for the record this is aimed at no one especially and i havnt send my cheque off yet but will be soon. so thats last place sorted then.
:D

This is getting out of hand imho. For goodness sake - keep it simple. The rules as they stand are way too complex and expensive, again only in my opinion, which differs from other 'experienced' racers I know. I believe the objective is to get people in the DSC into racing easily and cheaply to race with their mates....so make it a one make series, with no mods and control tyres.....simple....no money advantage, no technical skills advantage, just you. Control tyres work well in CB5's and even the WSB guys agree they're good, but again to keep it cheap and equal, choose a ROAD tyre, not a semi race as you need to ride in March in Pembrey - you ain't gonna go well on any track tyre - it's road or wets.

With so many bikes and variations, who'll know who's leading who in any race - it'll be like some races I've been in with Hornets, CB5's, LC's, 125's and 400's all in the same race - it's not a race, it's people on an expensive track day where you only get two 12 minute sessions.

I can't stress this strongly enough - as it stands, it won't work. It'll be all money and weeks in the garage tinkering until the second that red light goes out....then it all changes, you're RACING, not having fun with your mates on a track day - IT IS VERY VERY DIFFERENT. Once you realise that the guy next to you has more money, done some fancy mods, got better tyres, suspension, a completely different bike??? it ceases to become a competitive race. This is not WSB/MotoGP.

In CB5's, the closest match to what I'm harping on about, there are minute things that make the difference to winning and coming second by 0.03, which I've done - tyres are newer, the guys slightly lighter than you, he's got newer pads, the power curve is different, he's got a different sprocket to you, he's lying flatter on the tank than you going down the straight etc - any of these will make the tiny difference that makes for close racing. Go with 600's, modified 600's, SS's, modified SS's, 620's and modified 620's - you may as well make it any red Ducati and be done with it - Skids could race his 748 he's been trying to sell!!!

Sorry to go on, but I think I know a fair bit about what it's like, when a lot posting here are putting uninformed opinions forward - which they're perfectly entitled to do of course and some are great ideas which enhance the original idea, which is great. Please don't think I'm up my own backside on this, but I love this club, love the people, love Ducatis and I would love to see this work. Once the red light is out, you'll know what I mean.

As an aside, if you're up around 80bhp, why not let 748's in - you can pick them up for the same as a decent 620 and at least they're proper race bikes - why not make it a 748 one make series:lol:

I've been at work too long, must get on and finish before I lose all credibility and friends around here.:P

Rant over

WeeJohnyB

WJB you left out the £1k plus spent by some on CSS etc

That first point is a joke right Jools? I know quite a few of you who have more than one Ducati in the garage - either spouses with a bike each or maybe two bikes with separate characters which are used for different purposes eg KeefyB and his missus with a 999, Multistrada and Monster in the garage. Do you honestly expect someone who wants to take part in this series to keep two 6*0 monsters at the same time? Err which bike shall I use today - am I in the mood to take my 600 Monster to work or shall I take the country roads which are so much better for my..... 620 Monster? Doesn't quite work does it? Remember that just because one of these bikes is a race bike it doesn't preclude it being used on the road too, so you are effectively requiring someone to sell (and take a financial hit no doubt on) their 620.

And your second point, no I don't suppose there are many. But the only cheque I've so far seen belongs to a DSC member in exactly that position.

There is another aspect to this which no-one has raised. Before I raise it, though, I should make it clear that this is a personal comment, nothing whatsoever to do with the Management Team; I've had nothing to do with the proposed race series. Maybe Ducati UK would be interested in what we are doing; maybe they might even be persuaded to provide support in some fashion or other. Maybe not, I don't know. But if they might be interested, would they be more or less interested in promoting a series which precluded every single current Ducati model - or one which only allows 'out-dated' bikes?

FFS, this series is aimed at novice racers, not at the WJBs of this world: from what I understand, the fastest racer will win whatever he's riding. For most of you, if you want to go faster, stop eating all the pies ;)

Brakes??????

Ask any of the guys who threw their 600's around at Mallory earlier this year - or even those who rode/ride them on the road (Mutters & Doug are the most nearest ones to me, to recall) - they dont USE their brakes, road or track!
Whereas the larger monsters will need a bit of a tweak/yank occasionally on the brake (or a 'flutter':D ) the M600 rider when tanking it relies totally on the gears, to keep the momentum going to enable him (or her) to keep up with, and maybe overtake his mates.

Mutters? - maybe you can help out here?:eureka:

I was hoping to 'assist' AK in 'having a go' for this next year - will forwards dosh as soon as rules have been DEFINATELY confirmed.

Like WJB, we think the 600 is the way to go, as there is a greater amount to meddle with otherwise. Also: We could run to getting an M600 - and prob do at least one season of racing, for less than the cost of getting a 620ie.

C:)

I agree mostly with Jools, WJB and Weeksy on this one. (they've made so many points can't be sure to agree with all of them!!) Not sure I agree with your point about 620 owners now though Lizzie - we might all be in the same boat, whether we own a monster laready or not!!

For me, if I do take part, then it'll be on a stock (but fully serviced) 600 or 620 (if they're allowed) with the bare minimum mods to make it raceworthy and then we're off!! I don;t want to change any parts or fit big-bore kits etc, just get out there and smile - its all getting a bit serious!!!

Tim:frog:

[Edited on 12-10-2004 by Rattler]

I've read and though some more!

Keeping aside the realities of racing as succinctly put by WJB, it seems that one school of thought is that we keep everything standard-ish and thus apparently cheap. The other is that we try to even up the performance by having selected mods.
With the first way, the smart money is on it soon needing a "standard" 620ie with 6speed box, slipper clutch etc to be at the front - not exactly cheap and not exactly fun for the carbed brigade to spend money and know that they wont be competitive.
With the second way the same applies to bigbore kits, flat-slides etc and again a stock 600 will look a bit slow.

Using rules as applied to CB500s wouldn't work as the models are too different to not need ridiculously complex model based exceptions.

So I'm starting to feel that maybe we should have 2 classes - one for carbed bikes with a few engine mods (dynojet,K&N etc) but no overbores and the other for injected bikes.

That way we keep the fun for those of a "strip off the lights and get out the lockwire" persuasion, we can cater for those with later bikes/bigger budgets, use current models to maybe gain Ducati interest and above all, have some good RACING.

Tyres and brakes are possibly another debate again, but I think it is the 600 vs 620 issue which will make or break this fantastic idea.

Oh, and no carbon microns should be allowed!!

Cheers, Paul

just spotted this thread...NOW I understand Skids comment sunday re race numbers....do you think I should have a go Kev???:biaggi:

[Edited on 12-10-2004 by bradders]

can ... worms ... everywhere!

Quote from Lizzie, (and not the first time) boo hoo, (no offence Lizzie, honest)

"FFS, this series is aimed at novice racers, not at the WJBs of this world"

Is it really? So anyone that races is not welcome? As someone that has put a lot into this club, I'm not sure how I feel about this. As soon as this is up and running, there could easily be 20 people come out of nowhere, proper racers maybe, that want nothing to do with the DSC, they just want to race. If they get positions 1 to 20, how will this impact on it? As I've said already, I've not decided what to race next year. What I do know is that I still have £000's on credit cards from the last two years, so whatever I do, it'll have to be cheap. If you're even doing the basic one model formula, say goodbye to £6,000 for a season. I would love to race with all my DSC friends, many of whom have never raced, but I have a sneaky feeling are quicker than me already, eg Rattler, Desmondo, JPMercer to name just three. Felix is a prime example, what happens if Chillo enters? I may well be off to join the big boys in 600's, but I might also decide to buy a crappy old Monster and rev the nuts off it for a laugh:lol:

Oh and....nobody I know rides the same bike on the road as they race. Some put all the road kit back on and use the bike in the winter or more likely sell it, but to race the same bike as you want to use on the road is a non starter - it's very time consuming and you've simply GOT to be prepared to totally wreck it, or don't bother turning up. When that red light goes out, all bets are off, (thinking of Snatch):lol: The first few corners and indeed throughout the race, it's elbows, knees, bashing bars and deliberately running people off the track - think of every person that has come under you on a trackday or cut you up, move them 2 feet closer until they're touching you and then multiply them by 40 - if you want to get people into racing on the cheap, you ain't gonna do that on your shiney road bike.

"from what I understand, the fastest racer will win whatever he's riding. "

er...no!!! Corser is the best rider by FAR in WSB. The best rider/driver on the best bike/car normally wins, but there are plenty of examples where the bike wins. There are people in front of me on the GP250 grid that I KNOW I'm quicker than, but they've got 10-15bhp more than me and they're gone. If I had another 5bhp on my CB500, I'd win the championship with ease.

WeeJohnyB
PS - whatever happenned to the brilliant idea of sponsoring MEMBERS that was voted over 50:3 at the AGM?

I have ALWAYS like you WJB :D :D :D

I have a cunning plan...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...tem=7107267739