Women in biking/racing?
 

Sorry for the long post, but I would be interested in people’s views on this.

How do you feel about women and bikes and women in racing?

Firstly my view – I believe that women should ride bikes and should also race and that they can be competitive to a certain level. What stops them going further is unclear, but generally speaking they struggle to compete at the ‘top’ level. There are of course exceptions but putting that aside for now. I believe if someone is going to race and needs support/sponsorship etc they should use everything in their power to achieve this.

But should there be segregation? Do you agree with positive discrimination?

This topic has been under a bit of debate based on a new venture being set up to encourage women into racing. An all women team with women only sessions at track days etc.
I can understand that some women need the extra confidence boost that they may not get with men around intimidating them, but where do you draw the line? How would it be if there were men only track days?

Personally I think it’s a good idea if it helps people, but the part that strikes me odd is the way these things are addressed. It is the aim to help women as it is often perceived they don’t get a fair chance against blokes etc and for some people there is a fair amount of ‘bra burning’ and ‘we are equals’ being bandied around. But on the reverse of this the selling points for the team is ‘women in racing’.

Now, I see this technique (and use it myself) in work/home and everyday life. Using the girly charms to get things done. What strikes me is how some people use this one minute, then complain about lack of equality in treatment the next.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think women should be discriminated again either way, but then I don’t run around pushing equality and feminism. I believe its all down to the individuals. There are plenty of women who do well in racing (hiya Jen :) )without needing to play the girly card. But then again, could they get better sponsorship deals if they used their feminine charms/looks to compete against the blokes results etc.

I am playing a bit of a devil’s advocate role on this topic so please don’t judge me by what I write here, I am just trying to provoke some reaction.
:P;)

[Edited on 20-10-2004 by Lily]

I don't see any reason why women can't be as good as men at racing, it's just as there are less doing it there will be less who are really quick.
But anyone who has seen Kate Parkinson, Sandra Barnett or Maria Costello will know how quick women can be.
Remember Tarru Rinne? she put her 125 on pole for a GP.

I do think a race series for women only would be a good idea though, with the winner getting a free ride in something like the R6 cup for the following year as a prize.

PS. I've heard good things about your riding Lily - go for it.
:burn:

.......Sounds like a great evening I'm going to have ! LOL!!!

:sniff:

shut up and get inthe kitchen boy :D


<Lily now goes off and hides before she gets a bitch slap for misbehaving> :P

Hahahaha....

I think it should be equal 100% !!! I think if they really are as good as the men then it should be proved on the track. I think women only track days are a joke!!! Are there any men only track days ? I think not!!!

I read an article in Ride magazine about men v women. In it the two girls were made out to be better/safer than the blokes. Later that day i was flicking through a girl biker news letter that my girlfriend gets (wima) and at the back was a piccy of the same girl (pink hair and all) who is setting up this girls only race team. It really ****ed me off because there was no mention of that in ride. It made out they they were just "normal bikers" and didnt mention a fact that i think would give them an advantage on a track test.

Women should be able to do anything a man can but not at the expence of other men! Would they get away with openly coming out and starting a mens only race team and advertise the fact that women cant even apply?

Steve

I beieve its a mixture of both or extremes of one or the other.

Theoretically it should not be about strenght as you only have to look at Capirossi to see that physical size etc is not imprtant. Having the strength and stamina to control the bike is imprtant but women should be able to match men in this area on a weight/strength basis.

I do believe that psychology is often the key reason. The nature/nurture debate will come into play. How many of the girls that you see riding bikes were brought up in a tomboy fashion and have always been into things that are not always girly.

I have this debate with myself. I would do anything to be girly in a really girly way, but my head just doesn't function that way. I have all the girly genes and i do all the right girly things, but i just cant be a real 'girl' no matter how much i try ( I should point out i have just been sta here painting my nails pink whilst waiting for replies).

But underneath all the tomboyish side there is still a genetic difference to how women will deal with something, particularly risk/pressure/fear. How we take that instinct and control it is what makes the difference.

Chris

The girl is Susie and to be fair to her, she is working really hard at helping women who want to race so I cannot fault that.

www.bikegirl.co.uk

But, like you have said, it does seem odd that this positive discrimination is accepted. It is old news in some ways and is already prevalent in racism, the MOBO awards being an example. Music of Black Origin. How would it be accepted if there were an awards ceremony for Music of white origin only?

And Katja Poengson

She may have found it tough in GP's but was quick enough to win the European Supermono title and won a few superstock races on a GSX750R.

And for biking in general, this club (and others) wouldn't be what it is without the input of many dedicated women.

Just around the corner from me is the 'Northampton Afro-Carribean Club'.... wonder what reaction I would get if I applied to open the 'Northampton Caucasian Club'?

Discrimination, including positive discrimination, doesn't work for me... I'm all in favour of women racing, but let's have a level playing field.

[Edited on 20-10-2004 by Urban996]

A races series for women isn't about sexism, it's about those that would like to try racing but don't fancy mixing with men on track being able to have a go, get some confidence and move onto that level playing field if they chose to do so.

I see no reason at all why any given woman cannot ride/race at the same level as any given man.
Look at it this way, I am a faster track rider than a lot of men....but I am also a slower rider than a lot of women..........it goes every way.

I se a lot of blokes who think like Steve, ie. she's a girl, I won't let her beat me. Well fine, thats their problem, not mine. I also see alot of men (most) who find the fact that I ride faster than them great!

The thing with using the 'girl' factor. I think Steve will back me up that I don't do that, but believe me, I could! The amount of attention I get is ridiculous. I think it's also partly because of the beautiful yellow bike I choose to ride, but at the end of the day, my husband is there next to me in the garage, way faster than me, and he never gets a second glance. Not fair, but hey, thats life! Hopefully at some time I can get some help because of it?

The all girl team thing to be honest, I'm not sure what to make of it. I did read the site but I wasn't convinced. Maybe you guys could update me on that? As for Mrs couch, she did tell me at Donny she was fairly serious about getting out next year Steve.

So in summary, lets get some but kicked gels, we know we can do it! :sing:

Jen

Trust me, I really want to get out there, but a mixture of finances or rather lack of, lack of ability and how Freak feels about it, means that I won't be doing it just yet!

I reckon i would do ok on the psychological side of racing, just not quick enough on the bike!!

I'm all for a level playing field.
I used to do NH racing (waaaay back) and the sport was, and still is, dominated by men. It was the game of skill that came into it - just the same as on 2 wheels.


I know I got cold feet at the thought of doing Rockingham, with lots of guys out there - some of whom I ride with on the road who are much more 'sharper' than I ever will be.
As it was, the weather put paid to me getting more out of it than I did.
I certainly wouldnt have wanted it to be a 'ladies only' session then - even tho some on this board are 'big girls' :lol::P

Lily, you are right about the nature/nurture bit, but only you can decide how to handle that.
Me - its nature with the horses, & nurture with my bike.



C

[Edited on 20-10-2004 by CK and AK]

Don't drag me into this.... My opinions are based on what you can or cannot afford, and you cannot afford to race your bike at the moment, and getting some heating in that house of yours take a far bigger priority :D

I can't afford either!! It sure is expensive :o

I also lack ability but it's coming on, I think racing is dragging me forward slowly, kicking and screaming! The mental side is where I struggle most, my confidence is fragile at best I'm afraid :(

It's like my old mate Baggy says, 'If only I could do the lap I see in my head!' ;)

Bet you've got central heating though :lol:

Only because I live in a rented house! :lol:

If the ladies want to race its got to be on equal terms with the blokes.If you have an all girl race,who is gonna take it seriously!?
Sandra Barnett and Maria Costello are two very fast ladies that have gone well both on short circuits and the IOM TT.Sandra was particulary impressive at the TT on her RC30 and CBR6.I loaned her my Rotax single in '95 which she took to 10th place for a bronze replica and a fastest lap over 100mph.She would have got up to 8th if the clutch had'nt started to slip on the last lap.Not too shabby.
My better half has had a go and was just getting into it when a crash at Mallory dented her confidence.
Lily,if you are thinking of going racing,I say go for it!

I just don't have the funds at the moment so its not really an option unless i start to sell bits of my body!!

Sell freaks bike!! No, seriously, just have a go, one race if need be. Get your licence- £35 plus £50 training, join Derby Phoenix- £20, choose 1 track you like, enter one race £80 and come and show me and Weeksy how it's done!!
1 race is all you need to do, you'll know then if it's for you or not ;)

I was thinking of doing that and tbh, i dont want to be a 'racer' I would just like to have a go at racing. I have had a go at lost of sports/activities and any that I have enjoyed I have always competed, even if it was just for fun. The difference is the cost/risk factor of racing motorbikes.

I am a little bit accident prone. Amongst other incidents, I have broken my collarbone three times and i dont fancy doing it again. I fell onto the bed on Saturday and landed on it and have had some difficulties this week!!

Its not out of the question, just on hold for a while :)

but, back to the subject. I am not fussed if it was with other women or just with blokes. Like you said I get alot of attention being a girl on a bike and to be honest i quite like it, but that doesn't stop me wanting to go as fast as i can whether that is against blokes or girls.

[Edited on 20-10-2004 by Lily]

Racing against girls or guys. I don't see the point of racing just against girls, I mean, it's not like theres that many for a start! I would still be just as last or thereabouts I'm sure!
Problem is, if it was girl only, I don't think anyone would take any notice. Take ladies football, who watches that? But I bet if a woman was in a league team it'd be a different matter!
It's the fact that we're taking the men on at their own game that makes us interesting in my humble :D

Should never have been given the vote let alone allowed to learn how to drive, now there`s talk of racing! Pah humbug!!!!!:lol:

Can I put my ten pence worth in here?
I dont think this has anything to do with Nature or Nurture but its a psychological thing. Women are naturally nurturers and will think of partners, parents, children as a matter of course.
What stops alot of women from racing is the finances and the inability to stop putting others before themselves.
I for one would love to have a go at competing, even signing up for the all girl team (which by the way WILL compete at a level WITH men but just as an all girl team with all femele support), however I have a job...a class full of children that need me...as well as the children I help on social service panel meetings. AND then there are my own two and the hubby.
With all that responsibility in my head HOW will I ever hope to make it clear enough to be in a "racing" frame of mind.
Just the thought of my two watching me stops me committing to a corner.
Men are different in that even though there are alot of dads/partners on this board their responsibilty is always slightly detached. I dont say that in a derogatory sense, just noting that men and women are different mentally as well as physically!
Suzie knows she will get sponsors because the whole idea of the team is a novelty...I think that it is a poor tale that we HAVE to use the "girly" card to get any where in any career or line of sport.
Anyone that knows me will vouch for the fact that I will always "have a go" but when it comes down to it if the girly card gets me out of it then I will use it. In exactly the same way that a male uses the "ug" card!
I also think that women are their own worst enemy...
I wanted desperately to join in at Silverstone. I asked if anyone would ride with me...no-one offered to meet up with me, I asked for assistance when my bike capputted on me...no-one offered.
The people who did offer were my mates off this board WHO all happen to be men...
I know it isn't a good thing to judge things just on one meet, I did go and meet everyone and they all seemed very friendly but I would have thought that when people are travelling in the same direction more people would meet up if only for safetys sake.
:(
I hope that the all girl team get going and get stacks of sponsorship. I also think that all girl trackdays would be great for those women on their own that feel a little intimidated. If it helps more people to get on a bike then great!

Not quite the same league if you ask me Sandra Barnett was a far better rider, and it has taken Maria a Decade of machine and tyre development and Thousands of pounds in sponsorship to eventually beat Sandra's TT fastest lap.
MC certainly plays the Girlie card well and it quite often gets her on the same machinary as the person wining the Manx GP. Taking the ride away from more talented riders.
One lady racer that doesn't play the girlie card is Anita Buxton, taking part in most of the real road racing events, turning up at the TT, Dunrod, North West with her own bikes a ZXR400 and a GSXR1000 tuned by her other half, no flash Merc Veto with personalised plate for her
She was 6th at the NW200 in the 400 class and won the 400 race at the Ulster GP.
Last year at Silverstone when a few of us went along to Silverstone to watch WJB on Montys TZ we saw Lisa Thorne win the 125 race with a very impressive ride.
A few years back I helped get Suzanne Machen into racing and at her 1st meeting with North Glos she finished 5th in the Novice race, since then she has won a couple of KRC endurance 400 championships onboard the Dynotech ZXR400 and has raced in MRO.

Women in racing --- They are already there

Kev,you are right,Sandra was one quick gal.She and her husband Pete were also very good at the publicity thing.Pete always made sure she was first or second away for TT practice.You get your name mentioned every time on the radio and newspaper reports.

I can personally remember Beryl Swain having quite a bit of success on her 50cc Itom way back in the early 60s. I certainly feel that women should be encouraged to race but on an equal footing with men. Of course there is nothing wrong with them using yjeir feminity to help with sponsorship just as a male rider could use his personality to charm a female prospective sponsor.
My wife Sue has ridden ever since the 60s and allways makes the point that she is not a female who rides but a rider who happens to be female. I have to admit that she is faster (madder?) me. at one time she belonged to W.I.M.A but left due their hypocrisy in running female only track days and rallies where guys could only go as guest whilst being the first to shout foul(or something ruder) if anyone were to suggest male only equivalants

I would have ridden with you Lisa :)

We will have to sort out and meet up for a track day early next year :)

Having met Maria Costello,i found her to be very much "i'm a girl doing what men usually do,so i'm going to use the girly card to get me the best possible advantage",never really rated her really! She wouldn't have got the help or machinery she did have if it was based on her ability or laptimes alone!
On the other hand,Kate Parkinson,she was a very fast lady who just raced because she loved it! She even prepared her own bikes,dirty finger nails & everything!She never used her sex to get on(good looking girl too)!
I think if you want to do it,do it,but if you want respect you have to earn it! Don't rely on the fact that you have breasts!:D

Heres my 2 ps worth,

I have been on trackdays and seen some very impressive female riders and some who were completely spooked by the whole track thing. Nothing much different to the men there! The only problem is the amount of testosterone that can cause severe red mists when the girls get up to speed!!

As for racing the female psyche and perhaps physical strength do come into it at the very highest level, e.g world championship.

At club racing level the above two factors are less important, if you want to have go then why not, male or female. if you want to do something badly enough you will find a way.

If you only want to try before you buy as it were then Lougi hires race bikes out. No huge financial committment, turn up and ride. I'm sure he could sort something out.
This in my opinion is the way to go. If you like it you can then put in the time, effort and money to take it further, if not your road bike has stayed safe in the garage and your wallet/purse is a bit lighter but no serious financial harm done!

I'm not trying to pimp Louigi's business here, just putting forward a way of getting on track.

As for not being good enough, male of female, everyone starts somewhere. As long as you are willing to take the risks involved just what is the problem, who wants to look back and say I wish I had.....

If women want to use particular "attributes" or angle to gain support then so what. Don't listen to the whingers with their so and so deserves that support, somebody somewhere has put a lot of effort in to gaining that support working hard on whatever angle they have.

Its far easier to come up with an excuse as to why not than to put the effort in to make it happen.

Get the boys and Girls on he same grid and may the best team win.

As for women on bikes generally it can only be good thing and from whats reported in the press more and more are getting on the road. Anything that can help the bikers image move on from the greasy male speed obsessed psychopath steroetype has to be a good thing. The more the merrier.

Ray

[Edited on 21-10-2004 by Ray]

ok... devil's advocate mode on.....

If you/your son were racing and desperately trying to secure sponsorship. You had some good results, but unless you got some help were not going to be able to race next year.

You have been approaching lots of companies for help with sponsorship and you are making good progress with a particular supporter.

Suddenly the sponsor backs off and you discover that they are putting their money into a female rider who has only had some fairly average results but is fairly attractive and so gets some attention.

Would you see that as fair??

You could argue that as a sponsor they want to get the best return on their investment and a female rider is likely to get more publicity (if she tries) so would give better returns. But would the fact that she is female and using the girly angle make it fair in your eyes?


Just for refrence, i think its fine, in the sponsorship world its a fight to the death and any way of getting it is fair game as long as its honest. It may well be unfair to the better male rider, but things usually even themselves out.

L,
Securing sponsorship isn't just about the results sheet. Its all about the sponsor "buying" good publicity.

IMHO if a team is always winning but getting no publicity in the local paper, National press, TV or whatever but another rival team is getting less good result but always in the local paper etc then a a rational business minded sponsor is going to go for the team that gives them the most back for their money.

There was a situation years ago where there was a local needle match between two car dealers who sponsored cars in a series, the sponsor I had mad it clear that there was nothing they liked better that to see articles in the paper about the pasting the others had got at the weekend!! Or if we got beat they wanted a story about a valiant battle that ended in deafeat!! Luckily that didn't happen too often.
There were drivers with a far better record than me chasing the same deals but with very poor records of giving the sponsors value for money. As much work went into the publicity side as the competing, if not more so.

In the situation you describe I would pick myself up and look for another sponsor, there out there if you keep working at it. If that other sponsor was a competitor of the original I would be doing my best to make sure I out did them in the publicity stakes even if I was getting my **** kicked on the track by the all girlie team!!

Ray

[Edited on 21-10-2004 by Ray]

The whole fiesty racing thing to me is a REAL play on the girly front, and a big PR exercise on Suzie's part, all you have to do is look at her, pink hair, stands out like a sore thumb, has attention seeking plastered all over the place!

I can see that what she/they are trying to achieve is a damn good idea, but what probably isn't being advertised is the amount of MALE input also, husbands/partners, sponsors, I don't know enough about the whole thing, but are there any solely women based sponsors involved? making a truly female experience?

I've read the handouts and giudes to racing that have been produced, and it's all very girly to be honest, what size generator you need for tyre warmers, and a microwave ;) doesn't seem too serious in all honesty.

When you look back through the anals of motorsport history there aren't many women who have made it at a high level in this area. I don't recall any female F1 drivers, WSB, MotoGP riders (The big class, not 250's/125's), OK we've had a few WRC drivers, our own Louise Aitken-Walker who was very successful in her day.

So what is the fiesty racing plan? to raise the male awareness of potential female racers? Will these women compete in their own race series.... which I personally think would fail, and would widen the gap further, or basically catapult the odd person to stardom, either racing, or TV/Media personalilty, which I can see as a real reason.

I love to see women, and especially Lily on trackdays, when she goes round and can see her kicking some R1 riding straight line sid testosteroned (sp?) geezer who thinks he's the next Rossi (in a straight line at least), so mixed racing would be great, as long as it's on equal playing field on both parts, at whatever level.

Ray

I can understand this totally.

I was lucky enough (or rather i worked my butt off for it) to receive a car in a sponsorship deal some years back. I got abrand new car, all fuel/servicing/ins etc as well as some other benefits.

At the time I was doing pretty well, although there were others that were possibly doing better. The difference was how much I was willing to give back to the sponsors and the effort i put into that side of things.

A few other girls picked up on this and did similar. I know of one girl that has never quite been the best (although she is very good), but her constant media work to get herself noticed means she has had one of the best sponsorship deals in the sport.

I can't think of many sports where women are allowed to compete against the men (or are they allowed in all sports and just not up to the job??) - there's showjumping or other equine stuff where they do - but is this because they are riding a living beast, and the riders input is less physical?

Are women allowed to play in the football leagues, even if they were good enough?
There are women's football leagues, but these don't attract the interest that man's football does - this must be true of most sports?

In order for women to get really noticed in sport, they need to compete against the men, look at - the world's top woman golfer - Annika Sorenstam; in order to raise her commercial awareness (and marketability) she has been invited to enter male golf tournaments - and not making the cut.

In truth it was a bit of a PR exercise and the more this happens, the less impact it has, and there was a lot of anti-feeling amounst the male golfers.

Are there any sports where women create a better spectator sport than men - oh yeh - Beach Volleyballl!!!!! :eureka:

Tim:frog:

That womens beach volleyball certainly raises my awareness:o:o:pig:

what about the sex change ones? Golf has just ruled that a woman that was born a man can play as a woman, - and then there was Flo-jo and the rumour of her "man" drugs. All gets a bit confusing really :) Could not tell you what the answer is, as I have not got a scooby.

Topless darts???

Never seen it myself but I know a few f(r)iends who can't stop talking about it!!

Leilla? Lombardi and Desire Wilson had a go at F1?, Michele Mouton won a round of the WRC in an Audi Quattro years ago. Back in the 50 and 60's? Pat Moss used to be very handy behind the wheel. There are exceptions but few and far between.

It seems to be a weight of numbers thing in Motorsport, Hundreds of males compete and only a few get to the top of the tree, far fewer women compete so statistically far fewer get to the top of the tree if any.

The only exception to this seems to be drag racing, the quarter mile sort not the sort for people in drag as it were!!

I could go on to give one "theory" as to why women do well but I suspect it may well get me into hot water big style!!

Ray

I would be interested in your theories Ray....