First timer ST?
 

I need some advice guys...

I passed my full bike test in May and am hooked! I went and bought a 'sensible bike' on the advice of my instructor and I got myself a very nice Yamaha XJ600s. It is a great bike and I've done about 3000 miles on it already but I am already getting itchy feet for an ST. I love the look of these bikes but have never ridden one. My budget won't stretch beyond £3k so I'm guessing that I'm looking at an ST2.

Is there anything wrong with an ST2 that I need to know about? Would I be better to stretch a bit and try for an ST4?

Any advice from you seasoned owners/riders would be appreciated!

cheers,

Dunks

I've had both bikes and personally i much prefer the ST4. I know some will say that the ST2 has more low down grunt but to be honest i never noticed it!

If you get one give it at least a couple of weeks to convince yourself that youve made the right decision. They take some getting used to after jap bikes.

ST2's are cheaper to buy and service. Dont worry too much about mileage but make sure it has a current service history and that its not due a big one soon. A 6000 miler can cost over £600 on an ST4.

Dont worry about the clutch noise, as long as it reduces when you pull the lever then they all do that sir!

Oh and get one with the panniers already fitted, doesnt appear to make them worth any more second hand but they cost about £500 if you want them fitted afterwards.

ST's-Ducati's wolf in sheeps clothing, most people are VERY suprised how fast one of these can be, both on the road and the track. Fast and comfortable(for a Ducati)-get one-you won't be disapointed. ST2 is good for about 130 which is fast enough for most people but it does get a bit breathless up th top end but has plenty of low down grunt. ST4 is good for about 145-150, very smooth and revvy, good top end. ST4S-now that's an animal, loads of low down grunt, but when you open it up and let it rev it's 'oh my god' time.:devil:
I have an ST4S-nuf said!

John

Hello mate and welcome to the board.

Well, the ST range obviously doesn't have the glamour of the Ducati superbike range and even owners of them like me, tend not to be wild about the looks of them, even as an owner, I don't think the top fairing and headlight do the ST any favours. Having said that, beauty is in the eye of the beholder so if you love the looks, fair play to you.

I have an ST2 and they are vastly underated bikes. In this instance having a budget of 3K should get you a nice one, and just about the right age. If you go for a bike up to 2001, you'll get one with fully adjustable suspension all round. Later bikes seemed to come with the front suspension that currently graces the ST3 and is only adjustable for preload.

ST's in general are underated, but they handle superbly. They are a very easy bike to ride when you just want to trundle along. Although like all Dukes the clutch is heavy and becomes hard work through town sometimes (until you build your forearm muscles and tendons up anyway), they've got a low centre of gravity and riding at town speeds and in traffic is a doddle. They've got a comfortable riding position and don't put any strain on your wrists, the footpegs are nicely placed with a good compromise between ground clearance and comfort. When you want to up the pace a bit, you'll find that the chassis is excellent. The brembo brakes are not the latest fashionable radial kid on the block but they're pretty damn good, they give you really progressive braking and provide more than adequate stopping power even used hard all day on the track. Like most Dukes the handling characteristics are that they don't flick turn into corners as quickly as some bikes (although the leverage of the wider bars makes the steering nice and light) but when they're cranked over into a bend they are superbly stable. All the ST's are on the sporting side of the Sport/Tourer equation and their handling is good enough to surprise many full on sports bikes.

The chassis on the ST2 and ST4 is identical, if you go to the ST4S you get Titanium Nitrided forks, Ohlins rear suspension and an alloy swingarm plus lighter wheels, oh, and of course on the 4S you get a 996 motor punching out about 120-ish Bhp (a lot of bike for the money, but probably not yet available for £3K).

So ST2 or ST4? The difference is that the 2 has a water cooled two valve per cylinder motor derived from the SS range, the 4 has a four valve per cylinder motor from the 916. In terms of horsepower, they pan out at Ducati quoted figures of 83 Bhp (ST2) and 105 Bhp (ST4). These figures don't really tell the full story though, the two valver has terrific low down torque and will let you really fire it out of corners on a wave of smooth predictable power. The ST4 will do that as well, of course, but it starts to produce it's extra power higher up in the rev range.

On the road, what the ST2 will give you is a bike that will keep up with almost anyone except for mentalists. I have never been left behind on rideouts, and it surprises a lot of people on more exotic Dukes. I find that I can keep up with 748's quite well, 996's, 999's and the like obviously pull away on the straight bits, but not enough to disappear. I'm not attributing this to being a riding god, my mate Glyn also has an ST2 and we're always in touch on the Beds/Herts/Cambs regional DSC rideouts. We've both done trackdays with this club as well. The last time out I was in the fast group and wasn't embarrassed by lack of pace. Sure I got overtaken, but I also did a bit of overtaking. If Glyn had been there he would've been as well, 'cos he's probably just a tad quicker than me ('cos he's young and foolish).

Then of course, when the time comes for a bit more relaxed riding, you can just load the panniers up (it's worth trying to find an ST with the optional hard luggage 'cos if you want it later it'll be expensive) and take off for some touring with a pillion on the back. The pannier carriers are a bit ugly, but you can take them off in about 20 minutes (and on again in the same amount of time) if they bother you. At sedate touring speeds you'll get something like 180 miles to the tankful (about 130 if you're wringing it's neck round the lanes)

All in all the ST2 is a vastly underated bike.

If you do want to stretch to an ST4, they will be a little more expensive to buy, but they'll also cost a little more to insure and maintain as well. The four valve per cylinder engine is a little more complex with subsequently higher servicing costs. Servicing quirks on both bikes comes down to making sure that the cambelts are changed regularly, although Ducati say change them every 12K, most people do them at every service (6K intervals) 'cos they don't really cost that much in the scheme of a service and the consequences of having a belt snap are potentially dire with valves hitting pistons and nasty stuff like that. My personal opinion is that the belt change thing is a bit of a hangover from earlier days, now that the belts are reinforced with kevlar you don't seem to hear any horror stories, but I guess people (myself included) seem to err on the cautious side. As far as servicing goes, you need to make sure that any Duke you buy has a full service history, but don't worry unduly about high mileage. In many ways a higher mileage bike that has been well maintained is a better proposition than one which has been bought on a whim and spends most of it's life in the shed, back to the cambelts for a moment, if the bike spends a long time unused the belt can develop a sort of kink where it's been sat wrapped around the pulleys (they're quite a small radius) and that can give you trouble, along with the fact that an unused bike will sit there gentle perishing away instead of getting out there on the road doing what it was designed for.

2 or 4 you can't go wrong, great bikes

[Edited on 25-10-2004 by Jools]

Ditto to all of the above from Jools. I have the luxury of having an ST2 and 996 in the shed, but honestly if anyone had to go it would be the 996. The ST2 is a great allrounder. As Jools says, you can load it up and head off on long runs, have a blast around the B roads and keep up with just about anything or even throw in the odd track day and not be embarrassed. Regards the decision to go ST2 or 4, I have ridden both and thought that with a well tuned ST2 (mine has pipes and matched chip) you had better low down and only missed that final bit up top. For me, the low to mid range is where you want to be on a Ducati on the road so I could not justify the extra expense of the ST4, both purchase and running. Now the ST4S, that is a different issue. If you could stretch to one of those, go for it!!!!

ST2
 

Guys,

That is really great.. thanks for the info.. I thought that the ST2 was somehow a lesser bike than the ST4.. but it seems not.. I'm not one (yet!) for fast mad riding.. up to 80 is fast enough for me at the moment, but I would like a bike to be a bit more gutsy than what I have.. it is affordable and I was looking for some encouragement and that is what you have given me.

For servicing.. the nearest Ducati dealer to me is Ducati South London, based in Croydon. I'm in Orpington. Any suggestions for where to get the bike looked after? Are there any good independant guys near me?

Thanks for the help and advice.

It depends on the type of independent? Sigma Performance spring to mind in your neck of the woods, they have a great reputation. There may be cheaper options for run-of-the-mill servicing.

Then there is Cornerspeed (run by Neil aka Nelly on this board), they are in Kirkby-in-Ashfield, Derbyshire. I take my bike there despite the 250-odd mile round trip and there are people in your neck of the woods who do likewise. Enough said

Pro-Twins at Godstone will only take you 20 minutes or so to get to round the 25, probably quicker than trawling through to Croydon.

Darren.

jools
you've got too much time on your hands

to sum up
they are a damn good bike that can do a bit of everything

and are really good in the twistys

Blimey.. now you've me all fired up and ready to spend some cash...!

Thanks guys..

First thing to do when you get it though is to change the 15 tooth front sprocket to a 14 tooth one. The get loud pipes and a chip and then a set of ST4S alloy clutch plates. Do the sprocket change first though, it'll only cost about £15 and makes it so much more useable.

Had my ST2 over a year and am very happy with it. She's got a little mis-fire problem at the moment but hoping to sort that asap. I had the choice of any sports tourer and chose the Duc because it is underated by the press and public alike and therfore excellent value for money as a used buy.
It is a well balanced package of power and handeling.
I know there are a lot of owners of fast sports models here, but I belive we in this country have a misguided obsession with BHP and top speed which is feed buy MCN and other mags. In the "real" world of motorcycling nobody needs the latest fastest bike on public roads. Remember, manufactureres use a policy of built-in obsurlesence to encourage you to but the latest product, buy convincing you the product they sold you last year is now crap !
The press who are dependent on advertising revenue's have to appease their masters and be party to this.
The ST2 will do almost twice the legal speed limit, do you need any more ?
If you want speed for the race track then your needs are different.
And finally (and many jap 4 owners will also say) nothing sounds better on the road than a big twin !!
Nuf said.

What difference do each of these things make? Please excuse my ignorance!

14 tooth front sprocket-will lose you about 5mph top speed but make the bike easier to ride around town and also fire out of corners much quicker-as if it needs it.
Pipes and chip-makes it sound like a Ducati, sets off car alarms(if that's your thing), fills out the midrange-it is noticeable.
ST4S alloy clutch plates-only bother when your existing plates are worn out, but they do make the clutch less rattly and LOUD.
As my girlfriend says-"all Ducati's sound like a bag of spanners"-and she loves it.

John

I found that i hardly ever used fith and sixth gears except on motorways, the bike is very over geared as standard. The new sprocket makes those gears useable for more than just high speed cruising, makes it easier to pull away especially two up and makes it a whole lot smoother around town.
Pipe and chip, well like Monty said really!
Clutches dont last an awfully long time but are generally very noisy from day one. When it time to change it go for the ST4S alloy plates as they are almost the same price as the steel ones but a heck of a lot quieter and they last just as long. I'm up to 12,000 miles now (and 3 track days) on mine.

Generally the ST series are vastly underrated bikes on and for your info, the ST4 and the ST4S make slightly more power than the bikes their engines came from (the 916 and the 996) becasue of the way the exhaust is routed.

I think we supprised quite a few riders of faster bikes at Cadwell in the summer.

Get One
Dunks
I've had my ST4s from new since '01 and it has performed brilliantly. I confer with the other Posters in what has already been said about the SportsTouring range, but would impress upon you to do the following:

a) change the main and dip beam bulbs to xenon ones - the std ones are hopeless
b) change the front sprocket as per Rockhoppers comments
c) fit adjustable levers for both brake n clutch, you'll feel much more relaxed and they are only £16 each approx
d) get one with panniers, then when you've tanked up and heading for the alps send me a U2U and I'll be happy to give you some tips on the best alpine passes in my neck of the swiss alps

Have fun - that's what ST's are for :D

just to clear monty's post up;
The alloy clutch plates make it quieter.


Athelstan, what make/model xenons do you use?

"The alloy clutch plates make it quieter."-that's what I said didn't I??

John

i think montys trying to say the alloy plates will make the clutch a bit less noisey

If there was a straight opportunity to get either an ST2 or an ST4, which should I go for? This assumes they are comparable money etc....

Thanks!

As an aside, has anyone got or ridden an ST3?

What is in the engine in these like?

:)

ST4 assuming you can afford the servicing costs.

Is there much difference for servicing costs then? I mean.. is it significant?

Only reason for asking is that this conversation and the enthusiasm for the ST2 has made me look for one.. I am going to see two bikes within my price range... then, I got word of a guy selling a decent ST4 for a quick deal which I could afford too... just wondering whether I should even consider it. Is the insurance likely to be significantly more too?

Many thanks for the support guys.. much appreciated!

The ST4S has four valve heads, the ST2 has two valve heads. More expensive cam belts, twice as many valve clearances to check and they also suffer from the flaking rocker syndrome ( dont get me started on that one again) which doesnt affect the ST2.

So give Nelly a bell (www.cornerspeed.co.uk) and he will tell you what his fixed price servicing costs are for each bike to which you can add about £85.00 per rocker that needs replacing ( there are 16 of them!!) if you go for an ST4 or ST4S. On average its about three or four rockers a time.....

Well, it's £85 for one of them and about £110 for the other (opening versus closing rocker) ...

Yep Tony, closers only tend to go when the wrecked opener has mullered the cam shaft so much that its damages the closer as well.

Dunks:

Pro-twins are about the best IMHO, the service guys are really friendly and very experienced, it's about mile or so from J6 of the M25 (Godstone turnoff). Well worth a visit for all your ST needs.

Jools is right they be not the prettiest but you can mess about with them...

ST4 piccy!

[Edited on 27-10-2004 by fatduke11111]

ok... ok.. you got me convinced.. its the ST2 then.. I know nothing about the mechanicals of bikes and it sounds like I would reply on the boys at Pro-Twins to look after it for me... I'm going to look at two over the next week or so.. will let you know if I get one.. then I'll want to join in with you guys on a ride-out and have some fun on it!

Thanks for the really great advice and chat.. much appreciated guys!

So.. I've done all my homework.. I've spoken to the guys at Pro-Twins, done the HPI check on the bike and everything looks good. Chances are that I shall buy it...

What next...? Any of you guys from round the south side of the M25 area and get together occasionally?

Yes indeedy. The DSC meet nearest is probably Surrey at Box Hill on the fourth Sunday of the month. Webby is the organiser. Can't say many ST's turn up on a regular basis but there'll be loads of other Dukes most months.

Wanna join the club? I'm ya gal!

Dunks - whereabouts are you located?

I'm in Orpington, junction 4 on the M25. Box Hill is about an hour from me.. although probably a bit less on the bike!

ST vs SS
 

This conversation has got me thinking............

The plan come next spring is to upgrade from my '99 750ss to something else. I had always thought that I'd probably get a 900ss ie, basically because I really like the SS range and have no burning desire to get a Superbike.

However, after reading through the ST zealot enthusiasm here (and the fact that a good ST2 seems to be had for around £3k) I'm considering changing my mind.

Couple of questions:

- Has anyone ridden an SS (an ie mind) and an ST to compare? Specifically I'm interested in the width of the bike. I commute to work every day. The 750ss is really quite narrow and gets me through some pretty small gaps. I always assumed that the ST was a wider proposition and thus perhaps not so good for commuting.

- The ST2 has the 2 valve engine. Does it have a wet or dry clutch?

- I'm going to have to guess that the ST range has a bit more comfort factor than the SS. Although I've got used to the rock solid rear suspension and wrist crippling weight on the SS by now.

- Any ST and Multistrada comparisons? I realise the MS is going to be more expensive than a 2000-2001 SS.

Phill

[Edited on 5-11-2004 by phillc]

Yep, I've ridden both a 900SSie (borrowed) and an ST2 (which I own).

The width? Well the ST is probably marginally wider then an SS, but not by much. Being a V twin enables the ST to still be a lot slimmer than an in-line 4. The widest bits are the mirrors, so if they'll go through a gap the rest of the bike will. The ST riding position is better for threading through traffic 'cos you're more upright, get a better view forward without pulling your head back all the while, there is much less weight on your wrists and the bars are wider so steering is easier.

The ST2 has a dry clutch

In terms of performance the ST2 is about the same as a 900SSie. The ST is about 20Kg heavier, mostly because it's water cooled and has the extra weight of the rad, pipes and coolant and the bike itself is probably just a touch heavier but it carries the weight well and you don't really feel that the ST is too lardy. To offset the extra weight the ST has a 944cc engine with just a bit more power and torque, again the ST is fuel injected like the ie.

I owned a 900ssie which I had to part with due to lower back and neck pain when riding it for more than an hour.
This was replaced by an ST2 which I found so much easier to ride and was just as quick in the twisties but could also do 400 + mile days too.

Ill echo what Jools has said, beings weve swopped bikes some times on a ride out. The ST is more refined and comfortable than the SS and does not want for anything in terms of performance so long as you keep it in the realms of safe road riding even on track its a good bike to have on some curcuits. It doesnt feel quite so "brutal" or directed as the SS does but I suppose thats more due to set up . When I was riding the ST I did'nt want to pull over, I felt I could ride all day long. If you take a pillion, the ST would be the way to go. 4D

Well in that case.... the Kent meet at the Oakdene Cafe at the M20/M26 junction might be better for you. This Sunday - 10am I think.

Thanks Lizzie.. sounds great... except that if I buy the bike I won't be home until Sunday evening.. how often do they meet?

I bought it..! :sing:

Flipping amazing bike.. am very tired now and will write another message in the morning.. have just ridden back home 250 miles... just need to learn how to ride it properly now! It is bigger and heavier than the Yamaha and I need to be careful.....

First impressions are.. WOW!!

Later...

Welcome,

If it hasn't been mentioned yet have a look at the Ducati ST FAQ doc (located at www.bike-gizmos.com) 80 odd pages of useful info to keep you busy.
cheers