Tyre Poll
 

This part of the regulations has still not been fixed and we have an opportunity if we act quickly to voice our opinions and get what the collective majority actually want written into the rule book.

Be advised tho that the lean is currently towards option 1.

However the organisers would like to hear what we have to say and this poll is therefore only open to signed up competitors.

I happen to agree with Option 1, for the reasons given below.

Control tyre - closer racing based on ability and not budget
Collective tyre purchasing - reduced consumables cost
No warmers - reduced cost

And for the sneaky beakies be warned, the generator police will be out on patrol.

What does everyone else think. The subject will be closed out over the xmas hols - so its now or never if you have an opinion.

Happy to go with option 1.
That way (as stated) - its the cheapest option for all, no tyre warmers, no generators, no need for spare wheels.

Also - are you suggesting that there is a single type control tyre for both dry and wet or a control tyre for dry and a different wet control tyre?

I assume the former, but your poll suggests control tyres and not a control tyre.

I still think it should be one type tyre for both wet and dry ie a D207RR or similar.

Tim:frog:

Yes - this would be my preferred choice too, to keep things simple and CHEAP!

Although, I'd have a preference for Bridgestones but maybe we could have a list of, say, 3 road legal tyres to choose from - all of the same level?



[Edited on 15-12-2004 by antonye]

Discussions are underway with New Era regarding tyre choice / manufacturer / price - Monty is the man in the know - Bridgestones are being intimated - I've never ridden on Bridgestone tyres so I'm afraid I cannot comment - but if the're ify for you then there ify for me too.

Regarding tyre or tyres, what do you all think - 1 comprimise tyre for the year or go the whole hog and have distinct wet/inter/dry.

I would say one tyre type for the season because it stops the 3 sets of wheels, disks, tyres turning up at every round - which is what in effect it would allow and the cheque book pops up again.

The idea behind "competitors only" was not to exclude others in the discussion but merely in the vote. That way there will be no excuse for any gripes at a later date when you end up in the gravel and blame the tyres.

Sorry - but I reserve the right to "end up in the gravel and blame the tyres" - whatever they are:lol::lol::lol:

Tim:frog:

Definitely one comprimise tyre for all - otherwise, as you say, it's 3 sets of tyres and wheels per bike.

And definitely NO tyre warmers :p

I'd be happy to see the tyre rule allowing any road legal tyre. Let's face it, there's not a whole lot of difference in prices for all the different "top shelf" rubber.

Don't agree with one specific tyre as a rule, cos if it turns out to be, for example, Pirelli Corsas, then i'll be staying in the pits making coffee!

Not sure about wets... but initial thoughts are no wets, road tyres only.

Warmers... don't really care which way that goes!

I haven't voted as I'm not competing (tempting though it is) but I would say that there should be a choice of control tyres - 2 or 3 makes. eg. When I raced I always prefered Dunlops to Michelins and would always lap faster with Dunlops, but there were plenty of others who were the exact opposite. Have a choice of tyres, just keep the really trick (expensive) stuff out. As for wets, I would always allow these, they make racing in the rain enjoyable and save loads of crashes which tend to cost more than a spare set of wheels. Just my thoughts though.

Whatever happens I'm looking forward to watching:)

Nick - not sure I agree, if it was any road tyre, then I could use soft Supercorsas (my preffered choice) if it was very dry and then D207RRs (or similar if it was damp) - I'd then need 2 sets of wheels.

Unless you're suggesting that one type is selected by each rider and then he (or she) has to stick with that tyre - but difficult to police.

Steve M's idea of 3 different tyres that you could chose from is more viable I reckon as this would be a predefined list created by the organisers and would probably be a single type of tyre from Bridgestone, Dunlop or Michelin (perhaps).

Tim:frog:

Have always preffered Pirellis on my 900ss/900sl. I took off a half worn set of 207s and put Diablos on about a week after I got the SL. Best money spent so far.

If everyone wants a control tyre then I'll run with whatever the choice is without grumbling. I'd rather have something that was pretty good in dry & wet than something great in the dry and lethal in the wet.....

Ali

yeah, I was sort of thinking out loud really.

I reckon the best suggestion so far is a small selection of similar tyres which would be not significantly better be it wet or dry, therefor eliminating the need for spare wheels.

But let's see what the powers-that-be come up with.

Right, at the end of the beer soaked day I'm signed up so sit back and cop me .02p worth between the eyes ... (and enjoy it!)

I will be happy to use whatever everyone else has to use, as long as it's the same. If it's down to road legal tyres then you won't catch me anywhere near a Dunlop, I'll be on Pirelli's the same as Tim. SC's thankyou. I ran D207RR's on my 996 and I hate them. They take 20 years to warm up and they scallop.

If tyre warmers are allowed I'll have some, if they're not I'll still have some but not use them - bugger. But whatever.

So, if it's a control tyre (single make) then my vote goes towards Pirelli's, if it's all the same and it ends up with another manufacturer then so be it, I'll cop it on the chin and hten make every excuse under the sun (or your cloud ridden pathetic version of the same) as to why I fell off. Including Antony's promise to bump me off at lunchtime - ask Chi, he was there!!!

I'm quite happy to go with the No warmers and No Wets rule. (haven't ticked a voting box, I consider this Free tyres - no warmers)

Streetstock rules that I have raced under before state that tyres must be Road legal (No wets not even Avons road legal wets)

My trye preferences are the Pirelli and Metzeler range and with no wets the Diablo Corsa would be a sensible choice, I'm not keen on Bridgestones a few years ago it took me forever to find a setup for my CBR600 after I switched from Dragon Corsas to BT58s and the bike never was as good on the Bridgestones.

Hmmmm-"But let's see what the powers-that-be come up with."-I guess that's me then.;)
Interesting list Weeksy-
"208's (standard)
Pirrelli Diablo
Michelin 012's
Avon AP49's(i think)
Metzeler MEZ4"
MEZ4?? that's a touring tyre isn't it??
Not a Bridgestone to be seen-any particular reason??
Bearing in mind that I am not competing, just one of the idiot's who chose to open this particular can of worms this is the thinking so far.

We were asked by New Era if we had considered a control tyre as they had a manufacturer (Bridgestone) who were keen to get involved with a series, and 'one make' fits the bill.
From my point of view a control tyre makes sense as it means that the biggest performance difference will be the rider, which should give us a level playing field and better racing. I would still prefer to have wets available since they DO make a difference when it's wet funnily enough-however you would be surprised how fast you can go on road legal tyres in the wet on a racetrack. Don't forget on track there are no diesel spills, manhole covers, overbanding etc so grip is fairly constant. I don't believe that you need warmers, especially as you will be using moulded tread road legal tyres, but if one uses them then everyone needs them. If we are going to start having a list of 'legal' tyres then it is just going to make policing this that much more difficult-what am I supposed to say-'sorry mate you can't race, you've got the wrong tyres on'...............?
Basically if we go control tyre it will be one type + possibly a wet unless the overall concensus is that you don't want a wet. As to whether we go Bridgestone-well Ducati are now using them in GP's for 2005 which gives us a nice synergy. If the vote says NO to Bridgestone but yes to control then I am prepared to approach another manufacturer but we may not get a deal, in which case you will end up with the restrictions of a control tyre without any of the advantages.

Here endeth the lesson-for a while at least I hope!

John

For some reason "skittles" keep popping into my head!

I've not met anyone who didn't like Pirelli Diablos (in any flavour). Like Ali, I would prefer to run one set of tyres that are decent in both wet and dry - mainly because I look really stupid riding around with a pair of spare tyres around my waist!

If the decision is made to have separate tyres for wet and dry, will there be someone at the races that will be able to change them on the day?

If Bridgestones are the preffered choice - then I'd be happy to use those.

Presumably we'd get a preferencial rate on the purchase of these too?

What's in their range? BT012SS or similar?

http://mc.bridgestone.co.jp/en/produ...ry/onroad.html

I haven't used Bridgestones before, so don't know what's good or bad in the range.

Tim:frog:

I'll be more than happy to run Bridgestones as, like I said up there, this is my preferred choice of tyre.

I've run BT010s on the 748, which have been superb, and now have a set of 012SS on there, although have yet to run them properly. They are also superb in the wet.

The idea of cheap tyres and a one-make, no tyre warmers is very appealing to me from both the "level playing field" perspective as well as the cost issues associated.

I guess it depends on what everyone else wants - level playing field? cheap tyres? your own choice?

if you are going for a control tyre you may as well forget wets, kind of defeats the object of lower cost re wheels etc for me pirelli's and tyre warmers. but if someone wont give us a deal.....use someone that will. i think this will be a growing series and as far as im concerned the sponsors that get in first will benefit most. their choice.

This is a extract from a U2U I wrote earlier

As for tyres I would rather pay £30 to £40 more to buy tyres of my choice than have cheaper Bridgestones, I trust my life with Pirellis and I don't with Bridgestones.
Secondly my other bikes are on Pirellis so I have a feel for them, and may well race my R6 or 916 in other races at the same meetings and do not want to be riding on different makes, hopefully this may also apply to others later in the season as one or two others may want to enter there bigger Dukes in the SoT so I feel we should all be able to ride on tyres we are happy with.
Thirdly some of the 600s will also be peoples road bikes so again they may prefer their own tyre preference.

Kev

After some thought I have voted for control tyres no warmers. But if we go ahead with this I think the entrants should have a say in the tyre make/type.
In my case I hate michelins 2 very fast front end washouts have left me with absolutely no confidence, dunlop 207rrs are cheap but I have found them unpredictable when cool, I have never used bridgestone tyres due to 2 friends highsiding on coldish tyres.

May I suggest a further Italian link and go for diablo corsas which are nearly a s good as supercorsas/rennesports( my prefered tyre) but still have adequate tread for wet weather, and apparently are grippy even when cold.

dave

this could be due to the fact the bike I am getting is already shod with new corsas:lol:

pirelli would be my choice too

So......

the majority of entrants have now cast their vote and it appears that the favoured route is....

road legal control tyre, no wets, no warmers

so unless things change shortly the only decission left to be made is

is the control tyre a free choice from a list of (say) 3

or

is the control tyre pre-set

Looking at what everyone has said above the 3 manufacturers favoured seem to be.

Dunlop
Bridgestone
Pirelli

and if a single tyre is to be selected, Pirelli's Diablo Corsa seems to be ahead in the popularity stakes.

There are a number of tyre re-sellers who have profile on the message board - and all seem to be keeping quiet at the moment..........

We'll be spending at least £8k on tyres collectively with 20 on the grid - marketing/sponsorship/profile on the race scene.............

Hope I'm not out of line throwing in the above, but its our cash to spend and I'm sure we can all find space for a sticker or 2 on the plastics.

Agree with that - would be good to keep the costs down and help level the playing field a bit with some control tyres.

To select from a list wouldn't be too bad, but I'd still like to go the one-make route as this would mean super cheap tyres for all of us if we could get it as part of a sponsorship deal.

I'd be happy with the Diablo Corsa - Pirelli would be my first choice.
Tim:frog:

I'm happy with Diablo Corsas, or a shortlist of three, whichever folk want.

As skids said, "I trust my life with Pirellis and I don't with Bridgestones. ". I haven't ridden all makes ,but I find the profile of dragons/diablos has worked well with the 900s I've had, and have been very much more confidence inspiring that other manufacturers.

For those on SSs, I think a 70 profile front work miles better than a 60 as it gives noticeably better turn in.

ali

Just a thought, but as the series is open to bikes from 92 - on, any control tyre used will need to available in the size for every eligible bike.
eg. can you get D208's for a 92 600ss?

A big objective seems to be to keep it cheap and make it a level playing field so it's down to the skill of the rider. Therefore, a control tyre makes sense.

The CB500 class uses Bridgestone BT090. I'd never used them until I raced them, but some of you will know the lap times that are possible on them. I've never seen anyone crash as a result of losing grip, more like braking too late, hitting someone etc, so the tyre is not the limiting factor in the lap times, although it would be intersting to ride a CB5 on SC's?!? To be honest and no disrespect because I include myself in this, most of us won't notice any difference in the tyre on a Monster IMHO. Just ensure you choose a tred that will perform in the wet.

New Era will have Mark from Holbeach Tyres at every event. Mark stocks everything, but always has plenty of the control tyres in stock. He currently charges £115 a set, so cheap and that's fitted. To change tyres, he'll charge £5 per loose wheel.

Everyone in CB5's and Hornets use warmers. They're not essential obviously and do increase the price and the complexity/hassle factor on the day. 090's warm up quickly and as you only get one lap to warm them, they would have to. Question is, are you prepared to hold back or just go for it on the first lap on cool tyres, especially the first left hander you go into, they'll be freezing, especially if the track temp is down.

As for wets, they weren't allowed in my first year on the CB5, then they started appearing. If someone has them and someone has not, forget it, the difference is huge. It takes only a few minutes to change for £10 if the queue is small, but it's mahem when it rains on/off as you don't know what to do (sound familiar Monty:lol:). You can go pretty fast on a control tyre, but it has to have loads of tread, so don't choose a super corsa or everyone will crash, especially at Donny.

So my advice would be to choose a single control tyre, so there is no choice and everyone is the same. As for warmers, you'll need access to power which is not always available or a gennie which realistically only two can share even on a big one, you'll need warmers obviously and two paddock stands. I'll sit on the fence - it's the games they play with your mind that makes the difference - ''are my tyres up to temp, shall I go for it yet or just give it 90%, oh begger, someones just gone past me''. As for wets - if no, then at least you're all in the same boat/gravel trap, if yes, they cost about £200 and will last you all season, but it may be that you never use them. It's really really hairy trying to go for it in the wet on non-wets and lots crash as a result.

If you want to keep it cheap and even, if a little more interesting, go for one control tyre , no warmers and no wets. (just glad it's not me:o)

WeeJohnyB

Good post WJB, don't suppose you have the phone number for Holbeach tyres to hand do you?

Hows that then with 620ie's and 675Cc kits, neither cheap or level when others are on 10 year old 600's, although it is a ONE make series it is not a one model series with twin discs on some bikes single disc on others, if the rider can choose his bike and brake set-up etc then he should be able to choose his tyre.

The rules allow changes to the bike, bits can be welded to the chassis, fairings fitted, suspension upgraded, differn't pipes etc so why not leave the tyre choice free to the rider as in road legal moulded treaded tyres.

Racing isn't all about a level playing field, years of the japanese factories crying foul when Ducati V-Twins had a weight and CC advantage. Now in Supersport the CBR seems to have the advantage, and the GSXR in national Superbike Championships.

I thought this series was to encourage members to give racing a go and for those that do and then want to move on to other classes then allowing them to make a few choices for themselves will be a good thing, it will allow them to develope setup skills that will be necessary on faster more powerful bikes.

Steve M makes a good point - any chosen tyre must fit all variants - can anyone help out with this?

WJB puts an experienced perspective on the subject - these are my views on the points made.

"most of us won't notice any difference in the tyre on a Monster IMHO"

well I can't say!! but I would accept this advice from someone who knows alot more than me!! - I've never ridden a monster, let alone raced one but I do have an open mind and am prepared to ride on whatever is decided upon.

"Question is, are you prepared to hold back or just go for it on the first lap on cool tyres, especially the first left hander you go into, they'll be freezing, especially if the track temp is down"

Well if in race one you pin it to the first corner and end up in the gravel because of cool tyres you've learnt an invaluable lesson - the tyres don't warm up very fast! I'll be cruising past you and saying thankyou for the extra place in the final result!! Having never raced before and because of who I am I won't be adopting a "win it or bin it" approach, I'll just be learning, learning, learning. Maybe the more experienced chaps have some learning to do too, i.e. unknown tyres and no warmers.

"As for wets, they weren't allowed in my first year on the CB5"

this is the first year of this series too (an entry level Ducati series). Lets run year one with no wets and no warmers, reflect on the success/failure at the end of the year and revise the regulations as appropriate next year.

"If you want to keep it cheap and even, if a little more interesting, go for one control tyre , no warmers and no wets. (just glad it's not me)"

my inexperience means that I can't make a statement like that !! and I would'nt like to be encouraging a race series that resembles holiday-on-ice when it rains, but we do have a throttle, which is variable and we're not going to be on supercorsa's anyway so it is up to us how much self control we exert. I thought racing was about going only as fast as you need to to beat the opposition - not about going as absolutely fast as you possibly can everywhere.

Skidlids, I hear what you say regarding the different bikes on the grid. My thoughts, naive as they are, would be

one could have the best brake set-up out there, but if you don't know how to use them then one's advantage is gone.

at this level a 600 with the correct final drive gearing for ant given circuit will be more than a match for a 620/675 with the wrong gearing especially in the hands of a competant rider.

is a fairing really going to make that much difference on the circuits we will be visiting at the speeds we will be doing, the regs allow fairings for eligability of all models.

different pipes are really a ground clearance issue - they will help with the power but only if the induction side is correctly set up too

suspension upgrades, to me thats all about tailoring to the rider, the tyre and the circuit. Why not start with a blank canvass regarding tyres in the same way we are to a certain extent with the bikes and that way set-up will be a steep learning curve for all of us. As a novice I know I will have more than enough to worry about without changing to different brands of tyres every race following the winning riders particular choice.

I'm all for diversity, the though of a well set up 600 wooping the bling boys on their 620sie's parading the contents of this years DP catalogue is most appealling, but will the control tyre choice, if wets and warmers in year 1 are banned, actually make that much difference to the racing.

A control tyre will make the event easier to police and offer some cost savings and if chosen correctly should'nt comprimise our safety in the wet.

Weeksy,

perhaps I should put my comment in perspective.

MY goal for the first round of racing is as follows:

finish both races

measure myself against the competition

reflect on how the bike and I could have been better and act on it

With that in mind, as a novice and with nothing to prove I know I will be riding initially within my limits. If that puts me mid pack to start with I'll be more than happy, if I'm right at the back I know I will need to up my game as the SEASON progresses. In either case, if I reach the first corner and pole man is in the gravel I'll be smiling and I know I've gained a place. If I finish race one I will have achieved my goal with many lessons learnt I am sure.

I am not suggesting by any stretch of the imagination that Desmo Due will be a parade, but I do (and I may well change that opinion after race 1!!!) feel that racing is not all about going as hard and fast as possible. Its about going as hard and fast as necessary.

If I am on my limit and you are behind me with the ability to run at a quicker pace, its your job to pass me and my job to keep you there, I won't be pushing any harder because crashing out just to beat you is not a school of thought I subscribe too, but I will be defensive in my lines and wide of elbow. If you can't pass me, you will still be the harder, faster rider - but I'll be the better racer. (In that particular situation). (and thats "you" in third person !!)

Agree completely with you about the warmers - I'm not poo-pooing them, just attempting to get a consencus of opinion and if the majority want warmers then I'll go with that no problems. Its just that at present the majority don't want them and very soon it will be written in stone

"we'll get DemsoJen's bloke (Lee) to talk through 'defensive' riding with you, i tried this with him into Edwinas and he used the 'block pass' and stuffed me back to 3rd Novice.."

That would be cool - any information that helps me (and maybe others) prepare myself for this new arena would be very much appreciated.

Also are there any reference books, websites on such subjects that anyone might be able to recommend? Or is it quite simply a case of head first in the deep end!!!

Hmmm, control tyres, no wets or warmers............

I think I'll spend the winter cornering (!) the market in SS spares...........:D

bleedin eck, I agree with something Weeksy is saying :lol:

I like the idea of 2 warm up laps - why not put it to New Era Monty? They'll say no at first as time is really tight, but it's worth a try.

Kev, I agree absolutely with what you're saying about tyres mate, it's another way and as long as it's the rules, nobody will bat an eyelid. Thing is here, that we (you, it's nothing to do with me), have a choice - normally you wouldn't. Any moulded tyre would be a very good rule as it is with 600's, 400's etc etc. If I were racing, I'd me just as happy with that as with a control tyre. Only thing for me would be that I'd have an SC for the dry, maybe a 207rr if it was damp and wets if wet. Buying one 'all rounder' tyre to keep your costs down (a Desmo Due objective and something most seem to want to do), still means you need two sets of wheels and tyres and all the expense and hassle that goes with it - again, not knocking it, I'd personally prefer it that way, but does it fit within the spirit of what Monty is trying to do?


As for the bikes being even for 'fair' racing, I don't think they are and as in my previous posts when this started up - I still think it should have been a one make series, no mods whatsoever, but the rules are set. Will a different bike make a difference? Oh yes it will! Believe me, 1 BHP makes a difference in the CB500 class, you can just see the faster bikes pulling away from you on the straight, albeit inch by inch, it still means that you come out of the corner first and they go into the next first unless you're better on the brakes/do a decent block overtake as suggested by Weeksy.

We're all arguing over the finer points - in a few months time you'll all be on the grid and it won't matter a jot - you'll be racing and that's what it's all about, whatever the rules. Did anyone see Scratchin tonight? Is it March yet?

WeeJohnyB

Yeti

Mark Wright, Holbeach Tyres 01406 426489

"tell him WeeJohnyB sent ya"

WeeJohnyB

Entries are obvoiously up in numbers as we have 21 people voted so far :o

not me mate, me thinks maybe some peeps could be voting more than once - it's rigged, demand a recount:lol:

WeeJohnyB

As WJB says if you choose a control tyre it has to be a deep treadd tyre ot help iin the damp/cold/wet. This is a good idea and something like the Bridgestone 090 or similar would work well. Also takes another decision out of your hands and frees up a bit of your mind to think about the race ;)
I've spent plenty of time before a race wondering which tyres to fit and rushing around changing wheels with 2mins to go. it isn't fun so I do agree a control tyre is a very good idea as long as it's a tyre that works in all conditions :)
As for warmers I wouldn't outlaw them as telling someone they have to race on cold tyres is a little risky in this daft lawsuit society. I'd leave it a free choice. If you have to buy a genny and warmers they are things that can be very easily sold should you wish at the end of a year, also if you drop back to t/days they can be used to improve tyre life.

Good luck with the series it will be one I'm watching closely, at least when I'm not kicking weeksy's arse in our series :) :) :)

If we are going down the free tyre no wets route you are still allowing "the cheque books" to run different tyre in different conditions,ie supercorsa's in the dry ,standard diablo's in the wet.
If we take the single control tyre route you will not please everyone with a particular make,but i for one would be happy to run whatever tyre is selected,we all have our favourates but we are trying to achive a level playing field and low costs.
As regards racing in the wet i think safety must be a consideration (and as somebody has already pointed out there is a cost to falling off) so i think the use of wets should be considered quite carefully.
Butch

for my 2p i'd go for a control tyre (i don't really mind which one if all are on the same one! ... bridgestone would be fine if they came up with a good deal ... but any tyre chosen would need to perform in the wet) and no wets or warmers ... all just to keep the costs down and take away the complexities of set up for each race in the first year ... review at end of year and change if necessary for year 2.