tyre warmers yes or no ?
 

just open to desmo due racers and currect or previous racers(who know alot more than the likes of me!)

I can see the two sides of the argument here.

One side is that tyre warmers will give extra safety because you can go for it from the off. While I agree, 30 racers all going banzai into the first corner is not my idea of safe anyway!

The other side is that DesmoDue is supposed to be cheap and also level the playing field for all competitors. Taking away tyre warmers means that everyone will be the same and it may actually make the first few corners that little bit easier for us novices. And, of course, it keeps the cost down.

you wont say that when someone (me probably) loses it up the inside and skittles you and 10 other riders off into the gravel:o

Sure, but if there are people not running tyre warmers when they are allowed, this could still happen anyway.

Yep - I can see both sides too - but if we don't use them, then there's no need to buy/borrow generators or tyrewarmers and all associated paddock stands etc. (particularly if there's a single control tyre - as you won't need stands to change wheels etc!).

So although I already have warmers (but not a genny) I'm prefer not to use them.

I still subscribe to the theory of buying a cheap monster, making it race worthy (enough to pass scrutineering) and getting out there and have some fun.

I envisage dragging a Monster around on a trailer, leaving it parked up on its sidestand before and between races and having a laugh.

For me any rules that enable me to get closer to this would be welcomed.

Tim:frog:

[Edited on 17-12-2004 by Rattler]

1st year, no warmers

"you wont say that when someone (me probably) loses it up the inside and skittles you and 10 other riders off into the gravel"

that would be the "block pass" then :devil:

aaah i see! i'm learning already:D

uncledunnie - b.t.w i can see you taking me up the inside (so to speak) quite a bit if our avatars are anything to go by!

and leaving me plenty of time to bimble past having made up 11 places by the first corner.....

note to self:-

follow Dickie into turn one:D

From the club races I've seen recently there still seems to be as many first lap crashes now as there were before tyre warmers existed and I think the problem is still the same - it's the way the grid is formed, random or by ballot (ever noticed how there are less crashes when grid positions are decided by qualiying times or in finals where earlier finishing order determines the grid). This random nature of the grid means that a rider with a chance of finishing up front will have to make up positions quickly as club races just aren't long enough to wait a lap to start passing people, so there is always going to be some contact with 30 or so riders together with the faster ones deparate to get to the front.

To be inkeeping with the spirit of the series,i would say NO! It sounds like the idea is to have cheap racing,tyre warmers are just another cost.If one person uses them,then everybody who wants to be competitive will have to use them!
All the bikes involved will have similar performance,so good riders will be able to "feel" what their tyres are doing on that first lap!

It's a yes without a doubt. Warmers and a genny cost a lot less than repairing a bike and ultimately repairing you.

if you think for one minute that those without will be taking it easy into the first corner you have never seen a club race have you ? The first corner is the most exciting bit, but also the most dangerous and you will have no time to think oh hang on my tyres aren't warm. Even if you did you may have to take avoiding action which is very likely and your colder tyres won't handle it. On a cold day the situation is even worse.

Don't compromise yours and others safety cos you can't afford to go racing properly. If someone took me out cos they were on cold tyres I would be very upset with them, there is enough risk without creating more.

I would like to see a control tyre in this series, altho warmers should be personal choice taking into account what's been said :)

Which clubs have you been watching this year ? DP do the first rows from championship position :)

I've noticed that mate, but not all do and that can,t happen at the start of the season. Plus it stiil leaves the rest of the grid mixed up. It's a good idea though.

I thought that grid positions were going to be determined by morning practice/ qualifying - hence the need for us to have transponders????

New Era do grid positions by qualifying in the Superclub series. They did do some in the Club series by out of the hat - I know, cause one of my first races I was number 1 with 40 bikes behind me - frightened? oh yes!!! I believe they are now all done by transponder and therefore qualifying time, but I'll stand corrected.

Completely agree with CC on the tyre warmers and the mahem of first corner. I've said in another thread that if you seriously want to keep it cheap, then warmers are a fair expense when you add everything up, HOWEVER, I also said 'it wouldn't be me' as I agree with CC, if some muppet on cold tyres were to take me out, I'd not be impressed. Same applies to track days, despite me driving the point home in the briefing, most accidents happen in the first couple of laps on cold tyres, or when people think the sun is shining, therefore it must be warm.

By using warmers, you will reduce the liklihood of an incident early in the race. As CC says, if you've never watched a club race from the first corner or never raced, it's hard to describe.

It's a bit like the worn tyres argument - so you want to keep it cheap and think you'll get away with tyres that are past their best? Wrong! a), others around you will be quicker and b) you'll eventually crash!

One argument for cheap racing is to reduce the chances of crashing, so use warmers.

This could run and run, it's not going to effect me, but I wouldn't race without warm tyres - I might potter around the first lap waiting for the tyres to heat and that's one way to look at it if you're all in the same boat, but it's not racing.

WeeJohnyB

i've seem suitcase genny+ tyrewarmer packages for less than £200.

Losing the front (or rear) on cold tyres just once will cost at least that. (and I should know!)

One sighting lap plus a warm-up lap doesn't get enough heat up, especially on a short circuit.

Allow tyrewarmers, then people can make their own choice, but I personally would be a bit hacked off if I were taken out on the first lap by someone with cold tyres...........

Cheers, Paul

Grid positions WILL be decided by timed practice using transponders as I posted.

Since I am not competing I won't vote in the tyrewarmer debate-but as to it reducing first corner crashes i'm not so sure, there have been plenty of 'games of skittles' in MotoGP this year, and that lot are supposed to know what they are about................

John

Not sure about the "first corner, cold tyres" thing gents. Having done a bit of marshalling this year, the only first corner incidents I've cleared up were just a case of too many bikes using the same bit of track and hitting each other.

I'd've thought with the volume of riders going on the first lap, we'll be holding each other up and therefor not able to go all out on lap one.

I think warmers would only be a benefit to those at the front of the grid who can make a good start and get clear track from the green light... not going to make a difference for me at the back.

As tyre warmers will not be compulsory even if they are allowed it could still well happen. And as I said in a earlier post there were less first corner mass pile ups in club racing in the days before tyre warmers, than there has been since. Maybe the reason for the increase is the speed differential going into the first corner between those that have tyre warmers and those that don't add into that a rider without them trying not to be beaten into the corner by the guy next to him that has used warmers, recipe for disaster.
So maybe the choice should be everybody has to have them or nobody does.

I'm not voting on this, I have my own views built up after a decade around the club scene as both a mechanic and a rider, helping out at the TT and National level.
I signed up under the current rules so am waiting to see how many of these rules are now going to be changed.

I'll apologise now as I voted before the text body had loaded (our is a busy connection here).

I voted 'no' as I believe the spirit of the series is aimed at novice riders who are going to have enough of a bad time buying a bike AND all that is needed without the additional expense of warmers / gennie etc.

This and the use of a control tyre would be a great leveller I feel (NO....not levelling everyone to the goround on the first corner !!!).

As a matter of interest I thought I'd have a look on the MZ racing website and the mini-twins regs for mention of tyre-warmers either for or against and couldnt find any mention at all ?????????

http://www.bmzrc.org.uk/

http://www.bemsee.co.uk/index.php

Diamond tyre warmers from ebay £130
Generator hire for the whole weekend £35

Those little two stoke generators for £70 wont run both warmers together (the warmers are typically rated at 600 watts each) so you would either need two gennys at £140 or get a four stroke 2kw genny for about £200. All prices are ebay style ones but come up very regularly so it shouldnt be a problem.

Hi Guys,
Sorry to revive this post.....I have been looking for tyrewarmer help and information. I have been looking for a good set of warmers and this post has been helpful as it looks like the benefits of warmers are split and many feel they are not needed. I have used warmers that work very well and the benefits are very good if you understand how they work with the tyres and tyre pressures themselves.
I.E Tyre pressures go up by a set amount with temperature. The pressures need to be correct as even quick riders with wrong presures can lose heat out of the tyre and have problems. I have been looking for about 8 weeks now for a good set of warmers that are reliable and do what they should and I have only found 3 sets that fit the bill and they are all about £400.00 per set!! I have tried budget warmers and all they do is give you grief as they are usaully un-reliable and can damage the tyre with too much heat or not fully warm the tyre and they are cold by the time you do finally get to the start line.

Good warmers are worth using but the cheap £150 sets are just generally a waste of money and can cause more damage to either the tyres or the bike as you cannot be sure they have done the job properly.....

Again sorry to intrude on this post but I have found your comments helpful while looking for warmers.



:bouncy:

Well just to add my little bit to this, i used my £130 Diamond tyre warmers for the first time at TA4 and they behaved perfectly, they gave me loads of confidence in the first couple of laps of each session. The tyres felt uniformly warm all around so in my opinion they did what they were supposed to do. The only thing you get with the more expensive ones is they are more robust and a bit quicker to put on so if you are using them every weekend then its perhaps worth going for the more expensive ones.

The genny i used came from Ebay (it was brand new) and cost £170 plus shipping. It was brand new and rated at 2.8kva which is about 2500 watts so it'll run two sets of warmers quite happily plus you can use it to power your kettle, fan heater, power tools, lights etc.

If you're doing trackdays and can afford them - get some !!! they're great for confidence and you don't have to waste as mnay laps getting heat into them.

Tim

I have my own tyre warmer,he's called Chris and he takes the bike out in the fast group leaving it nice and warm for the inters!
Might have a problem when i move up though.
Butch

no......

So far we have had no first corner off's that can be attributed to cold tyres have we..?....u warm the tyre up sit in the holding are then sit on the grid how much heat is going to be in them.?

So far in this series i have not seen any reason why we would introduce warmers...its another cost we can do without...........

Has any1 had any cold tyre issue's so far.....??..i have not heard any1 complain about cold tyres and i for one and i know im not alone go pretty hard from the start.....

Where will it stop..soon after warmers it will be advised we should have wets..then it's genny !spare wheels !spare discs etc etc..................

The Diablos we are running are awesome..warm up quickly and give excellent grip...............

no issues from me..im happy to run no warmers ( even though i have a set) and stay with controlled diablo tyre for next year....

Phil

Have to agree with Phil,we dont seem to have any issues with tyres,costs need to be kept down for next year.
The higher the costs the less fun it will be.
Butch

Dude, I don't think anyone was suggesting that we do! Fbracer just wanted to know our opinion on which set to buy (Something I can't help with, sorry!).

Having said that I second everything else you said. No need at all for them at the mo. I didn't see anyone warming their tyres up during the race at snet, and if the front-runners are doing those speeds on cold tyres then you can rest assured that grip really isn't an issue.

I'd go even further and say that warmers could cause problems as the tyres have a definite tendancy to go off after 15mins at full bore. Mine let go a couple of times at Cadwell, admittedly on a corner with a rough surface (chris curves), but it didn't happen in the first 5-6 laps. Tyres pressure were 34.5 on return to the pits which seems about right.

Cheers,

Ali

Old thread re-born but worth going over again now we've had a little experience to speak of...

I'm more than happy with no warmers. Agree with wot phil says above, the diablo's get enough heat in the warm up lap to give plenty of confidence and give shed loads of feel be they cold warm or melting.

IMO there's no such thing as blaming cold tyres for a race crash - if you're a good enough rider to be on a race grid then you ought to be able to feel what your tyres are up to and ride accordingly, red mist or not. If you go beyond the limits then it's rider error, not cold tyres!

n

No warmers for me thanks!

Great for track days - not for DD racing.

Now where is that extra 10bhp......

No warmers!
 

I can only echo Phil and Nicks comments above. I have always been a Bridgestone man but these Diablo's are awesome on the Monster, they grip well enough from cold and warm up very quickly, giving masses of feedback all the time anyway.
Warmers are just ANOTHER expense we can do without (£200 for a set plus genny may not be much to some of you but it is to me!) and there would be no justification for forcing us to use them on "safety" grounds. You ride within your bike's and your own limits, push those limits by all means, but crashes are caused by malfunction of your judgement or your bike, not the performance of the machine or its components.

No warmers, but I think wets would be a good safety addition.

I watch and read the DD post's with great interest, and I agree with psychlist in his reply.
No warmers.


robin

totally disagree dom for all the reasons in my above post.^..wets = spare wheels discs etc etc......costs get driven up..! most of the 675BB lads are facing extra cost with engine mods this off season the last thing we need imho is to start adding wets! wheels !!disc's !etc to the shopping list..

Phil

Do you think they invented wets coz they were bored at the tyre factory?

I'm sure when we get a wet race, peoples opinions will change.

A set of wets @ £175 will do you a season, and a set of wheels can be had for under £200.

It could cost more than £375 if you fall off in the wet and destroy your bike.

I did £500 worth of damage when I hit Mike at Cadwell.

Fairing upper
Fairing stay
Front wheel
Clip on
Screen
Front tyre (took a chuck out)
Brake disc damaged

...and it was a pretty low key crash.

I know what you're saying Phil, but sometimes £300 spent in the right direction isn't such a bad thing. Plus having spare wheels means you have something to sell on - You can sell porting on Ebay!

;)

Oh, and engine tuning won't stop you falling off in the rain either :D

we noticed!:P

:lol::lol::lol:

C
xx

375 quid i dont have m8............and can you imagine the market price for spare wheels and discs.......you fell of in the dry...?? and all the off's so far have been in the dry.??......i would much rather have the saved 375 in the bank or not on my credit card in case of the off..............its not a limitless pit ya know...

so theoritically i could crash in the dry and cost 500, spend 375 plus on wets n wheels and it never rains.....if it rains ( i have ridden two races in the wet SoT) i guess its a question of the rider and the ability to stay on.......

If a Real deal could be struck for each competitor to get a set of wets at the start of the season for a nominal cost..if they are not used then we can give back.!..then that could be of interest....thoughts.?

If money was not the issue, or trying to keep the DD series affordable enabling all types of people to try their hand at racing ! then we could have : -

Wets on wheels
Warmers
Generators
unlimited bike mods ie forks! tuning !
10 - 12 race meetings
slicks or free tyres

and a grid of 10.................;)

I guess imho for people that want to step up and have the facilty to choose some of the above then move to SoT or Mini Twins.

Keep the series Basic Fun Competative affordable and it will grow and be the success it already is.................

Phil

of the soap box now.... :ninja:

As someone that already has warners, spare wheels, discs etc to fit my DD bike I am quite happy to stick with the current tyre rule as it keeps the cost of entering the series lower.
Anybody wanting to start next year should be able to turn up on a lightly preped 583cc bike (ACU requirements) with a set of Diablos on it and be able to go out and race. They shouldn't need to be turning up with Wets on Wheels, tyre warmers, Geny Paddock stands etc.
These things can come later once they have decided if racing is for them (including the bill that comes with it).
Maybe if we can grow the series into two seperate grids then maybe a grid made up of mainly 620 bikes could be under slightly different rules wher Wets are allowed along with warmers and Diablo Corsas.
But that should be a little way off as the series is in its early stages and lessons are being learnt by everbody envolved.