Starting problems...
 

Hoping someone can help me out with a little problem ive got with my otherwise lurvly 1000ss which is really winding me up and pushing me close to losing my sense of humour! Wheeled her out for a blast last weekend and at first she didnt start then after the third or fourth attempt the engine stopped turning over and all i got was an audible click on pushing the starter. Bought a very nice charger thinking the battery was flat (£44.99) and charged it up fitted it back on and just a click again. Checked all the fuses, rocked her back and forward in case the starter was stuck, still nothing. Bought a volt meter and battery is fine outputting over 13 volts so checked wiring over etc etc and nothing. All other electricals work fine (lights etc) so Im completely baffled.

Only option I have is to send her back to the garage in lincoln which is a real pain in the proverbials although as shes under warranty it wont cost me anything (apart from the train fare from P'boro to Lincoln of course to pick it up and the inconvenience of course). Anyway would love to avoid this so if you've got any ideas i could try i would be grateful to hear from you.

Cheers.

Hey mate,the click you can hear is the starter solenoid.Its basically the bit that connects the starter motor to the battery.
The battery seems sound and the solenoid sounds like its working,so.......have a look at the starter motor connection.Its under the front of the engine and collects all the crap off the front wheel.(You will probably need to whip orf the fairing)Pull the rubber boot off the connection and check for corrosion.
Are you about in the daytime?I could maybe nip round and have a look if you like.:)

Hiya Keith, funny you should mention that. Mate of mine has suggested something similar to do with the solenoid. Unfortunately im not home till saturday.... thanks for the offer and if you could pop over i would be grateful - im sure i could get the kettle on and make sure there's some cake about :D:D

Tea and cakes??!!
I'll be popping over then!:pig::lol:

Scully, you won't go far wrong there...the KeefyB thumbnail is the finest tool for contact cleaning known to mankind.

Worked for me, even when stranded at the Cat & Fiddle...out with the relay, scrape, scrape, scrape, vroom

I had the same problem a couple of years ago on my superlight. It was the connection on the solenoid. Took the connection off and cleaned the copper bolt connection on the sol with wire wool and the spade connector on the wire. Poped it back on and covered it with grease. No problem since.
:bouncy:

Now now mate you'll be giving yourself a totally unjustified reputation...:lol: was it one lump or two?

Thanks for the advice chaps im hopeful its something silly like a dirty connection. By the sounds of it ive got the best thumbnail in the business coming to sort it out :lol::bouncy:

Just an update.
I popped over to scully's this arvo and had a look at the bike.After checking the solenoid and starter we decided the battery was knackered despite showing over 12.7v on the voltmeter.It just did'nt have enough ooomph to power the injection,ignition and turn the starter motor.The bike would'nt even go with a bump.At nearly £80 a pop,thank gawd for warranties!

I was going to suggest 'carefully' giving the bike a jump-start from a car bettery to rule out anything around the starter motor but sounds like you have found the culprit !!!

Nice work.

Thanks Keith for popping over. Left the battery on charge all night and despite an indicated volatge of 13.2 still no joy! Still we shall wait and see what happens when the new one arrives - as you say thank gawd for warranties :)

I was tempted to try off a car battery got a spare one in my garage but worried I might blow my electrics completely - presumably you can do it Frank? If so what and how do I need do/avoid?

Hmmmm.....I have 'successfully' managed to start my bike, jumping off from a car battery when my Ducati refused to start under its own steam.

However, I can think of once when I started the car as well and cant help thinking this might of done some damage - here are two very relavent articles - good luck:

http://www.yft.org/tex_vfr/tech/jump.htm

1) "This article was originally posted by Kenneth Murray to the VFR List, and he has graciously allowed me to post it here as a reference for others. It is an excellent post that may be useful to other riders.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, Kenneth was saying ... "I've jump started motorcycles from car batteries several times and not suffered any ill effects that I know about. Worse than that, I've jumped a dead bike from a *running* car successfully.
Jumping a deeply discharged lead-acid battery will cause it to start producing hydrogen gas. If the concentration of hydrogen in the air space above the battery plates reaches 4% (not a lot), it is potentially explosive. Keep ignition sources away from the discharged battery!

In particular, be careful with the jumper cables, they can produce the deadly spark. Here are the instructions that came with my jumper cables.

(i) Connect +ve of dead battery to +ve of live battery.
(ii) Connect -ve of live battery to chassis of dead vehicle.
(iii) Crank it.
(iv) Disconnect cables in the reverse order.


Note that (ii) puts the last connection away from the dead battery. Please, please take this warning seriously. An exploding battery will scatter acid everywhere, maybe in your face and eyes.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've heard the horror stories and I've heard advice and opinions both ways. So in an effort to find out the straight dope, I called Yuasa, Interstate, and Hawker Energy Products (used to be Gates).
Gates (800 546 9611) didn't return my call.

Yuasa (800 523 3553) said "we do not recommend jumping a motorcycle battery from an automotive battery." I asked why and the technical rep said something about the car battery being "too strong." I pressed him for a slightly more precise explanation, but I didn't get anywhere.

Interstate (800 541 8419) had a real engineer answer the 'phone. He said as long as both systems (car and bike) are 12 volts, there shouldn't be any problem. I told him about Yuasa's objections and he didn't understand them. In simple terms, the size of the car battery is a capacity. The bike will only draw on that capacity what it wants or needs. That last statement probably needs to be qualified with "if the motorbikes electricals are in good shape and all that's wrong is that the battery is discharged".

I also asked about jump starting a bike from a running car and he said he could see that might be a problem since the voltage at a running car's battery terminals rises and this might be too much for the bike's electricals to handle.

I know next to nothing about lead-acid batteries and that whole electrochemical nightmare, but my background is in electronics engineering so I'm going to indulge in a little speculation.


I think it is unlikely you'll harm a motorbike by jump starting it from a car battery (car engine OFF). This is the answer everyone wants to hear on Sunday morning when the dang thing won't start.

The only way you'll damage the bike is if there's a fault in its charging system or wiring. I can imagine if there's a short circuit somewhere on the bike, the car battery with its greater capacity could fry the wiring harness, but the bike's fuses *should* protect you.

Jumping the bike from a running car is a much bigger risk. Off the top off my head, I could see that the extra voltage from the car could blow the diodes that normally prevent the bike's battery running the alternator as a motor.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The above is only my opinion folks. I kid myself it's an informed opinion, but confronted with lawyers I'll deny everything ;). "

2) and I dont pretend to understand all this...........

http://www.shadowriders.org/faq/jumpstarting.html

"Jump Starting – NOT from a Running Car

Submitted by Radford, B Davis



The issue is that cars (and 'wings and a very few other bikes) have a different type of alternator than our Shadows (and most other motorcycles) have.

Basic theory idea, for those who came in late: Generators of all types make electricity by moving a magnetic field relative to a coil of wire. The stronger the magnetic field and the faster it moves, the more electricity is generated. The moving part is usually called an armature or rotor. The stationary part is called a stator.

The typical car alternator is an excited field type. The magnetic field is created by an electromagnet in the rotor. Supply voltage is controlled by the amount of current going through the electromagnet. Most big AC generators are made this way. If an external power source is applied of a higher voltage than the regulator setpoint is applied to the system, the regulator will recognize the system voltage as being above setpoint and turn the field magnet (usually rotor) off. Result: No problem, as long as the applied voltage isn't so high as to damage anything (typically 25 V or higher on a 12V system). So you can (usually) jump start a car with another car, or a GoldWing without any problems.

Now the bad news:

Most motorcycles don't use an electromagnet to create the magnetic field. Instead ,we have a drum-shaped rotor (usually on the crankshaft) with several permanent magnets placed inside (a magneto). These magnets moving past the stator coils create the electricity we need to run the lights, charge the battery, etc. But you can't change the strength of a permanent magnet. So regulating the generator output is not a straightforward issue of turning the field magnet strength up or down.

The motorcycle voltage regulators I've seen all take the approach of shunting excess generated power to ground. This has the advantage of making sure that the voltage is the same everywhere in the system, but the disadvantage of meaning that the stator is always flowing its maximum rated supply current. This, I think, is why many motorcycles have a reputation for frying stators.

So the design of one of these regulators is completely different from a cage regulator. It has a voltage detection part, like the other regulators, but the big resistor/power transistor package has to be strong enough to carry all the possible excess power generation to ground. It handles a lot more power than the car regulator has to. It generates a lot of heat as it does this, which is why the regulator on my '85 VT1100 is finned and out in the open air--to carry off the heat before it cooks something in or around the regulator. A typical bike magneto makes 30-50 amps at max power. So the regulator is designed to dissipate a maximum of about 700 watts for short periods (this would be full power and no loads on the bike--the battery and lights are all missing). In practice, this cooks the regulator pretty fast--they don't like to dissipate more than about 200 watts for any length of time.

Now consider what happens when your moto regulator is doing a good job keeping the system at a nominal 14.1 volts when running, but the battery is weak, so you have to jump-start it on cold mornings. You hook up the bike to your Toyota with a 95 amp alternator (max output about 1400 watts). The Toyota's voltage regulator keeps *its* system at a cozy 14.3 volts when the engine is running. We now have a problem.

The cage's alternator and regulator want to maintain the system at 14.3 volts. Your bike's regulator, the instant the system is turned on, is going to try to bleed off excess voltage from the system to keep it at 14.1 volts. The car's alternator is rated for 1400 watts. The bike's regulator can dissipate a maximum of 700 for (very) short periods before it cooks itself. It's a tug of war, and the bike regulator ALWAYS loses.

Moral of the story--jump-start your bike from a non-running cage. The quiescent voltage of a car (or bike) battery is in the 13.2-13.8 volt range. The only result of this is that the full output of the bike's magneto will go into the cage and moto batteries once the bike starts. This actually reduces the load on the regulator to near zero, so it's quite happy with this state of affairs.

Corrolary: Want to reduce the load on your bike's voltage regulator? Install MORE (or brighter) lights. No kidding. Since the regulator only handles power output beyond the bike's demands, installing more demands means that the regulator does less (and is happier). The stator does the same amount of work in either case, so no problem there. Be forewarned, though, that Honda didn't exactly break the bank on copper for the wire in our bikes. It's sized to work just right with no corroded connectors and the stock loads. You need to run larger/more supply wires from the battery if you intend to use significantly more power than does the stock system.

So, the summary seems to be:

You can jump start the bike from a standard car battery as long as you follow the jump lead sequence to avoid sparks near the discharged battery.

You shouldn't do any harm to the bike however 'heavy duty' the battery that you're jumping from is, because the battery doesn't pump current into the bike, the bike draws current from it. The bike electrics will only draw the current they need from the jump battery and no more.

BUT...

If you start the engine of the car with the jump battery, then the car alternator (which is made to provide enough power for heated screens, electric windows, wipers etc...) will pump a higher voltage into your reg/rec. The bikes reg/rec will try and dump the excess voltage to ground, but because it's only rated to dump the excess generated by a bikes alternator which is much weaker than a cars alternator, the car alternator will quickly fry the bikes reg/rec

So...for someone like me, with no possibility of getting a car near where I park my bike to jump it from anyway, I could get away with having a heavier duty 'mule' battery around to give my bike a kick...right?

Exactly or ... Argos to the rescue once again (well, I get free vouchers every now and then)....

See below... - I bought the cheaper version that has a light instead of the compressor but the the same power battery.

Useful item to have.

[Edited on 14-2-2005 by Iconic944ss]

Challenge Xtreme Engine Starter and Compressor.
750/6215

49
£ .99


Suitable for use on petro engines up to 2500cc and diesel engines up to 2000cc.

12V power take off allows use of air compressors, lights etc.

Built-in 1.2m booster leads, fluorescent tube and LED power indicator.

AC adaptor for recharging.

Complete with an air compressor for car tyres and a high volume inflator/deflator for air beds and other inflatable items.

Automatic shut-off.

3 compressor nozzles.



http://www.argos.co.uk/webapp/wcs/st...clickfrom=name

Fascinating stuff and thanks for all the advice and help chaps! The battery Ive got is a spare so it wont be connected at any time to the car/alternator so assuming Ive got this right this should not do any harm whatsoever... :puzzled: Fingers crossed still tho
;)

Yep - I think for the best possible chance:

Charge both batteries well.
vent the area as well as possible (open garage door etc)
Use good quality jump leads.
Heed the connection warnings (connection to 'dead battery' last).
and connect to bike chassis rather than -ve terminal (footrest etc).

Good luck.

Great info Frank.
Hey Paul,I have a fire extinguisher you can borrow if you like!:lol::lol::lol; 12V is dangerous stuff you know!

You say you got 13.2v,I'm guessing that was in its quiescent (no load) state?What was the voltage after you tried to start the bike?
Keep us posted.

[Edited on 14-2-2005 by KeefyB]

During the winter my SS would always balk at cold morning starts(a condition that disappears once the weather warms). Frequently jumped off my 4WD, but no success with the engine not running (contrary to what may be said above). Always had the engine running, did a posi to posi jump first, then a neg term to bike frame connect. Never revved the cage, but the idle output always did the trick (whereas the non-running never did). At idle, I am not sure where the output is on my cage, but it probably doesn't overload the system on an 93 SS. WOuld hesitate to do it on my ST4 though as there are way too many electrical gim craks on board that cost mucho moolah!

On balance I think I'll wait for the new battery to arrive... The luck Ive had recently I can just imagine watching the electrics melt before my eyes :o:o Somehow I think Ducati would have an issue on any subsequent warranty claim - 'Umm tryed to start the bike off a car battery eh?' :lol:
Thanks again for the advice etc and I'll let you know what happens when I get the new battery.
Paul

Probably a wise move my friend, I know what you mean.

Forgot to ask the other obvious question about if you have an alarm etc on the bike that may have malfunctioned or is pulling the battery down?

With the new battery on it might be wise to check out the voltage regulator asap if you have a multimeter.

Good luck (cleaning those connections) Frank

I agree that jump-starting with a (running or non-running) larger capacity automobile battery won’t harm your Ducati. It’s indifferent to the source of 12 volts supplied to its terminals. The only difference is the ability of a larger capacity battery to deliver a higher current and longer durations, i.e. repeated starting attempts.

I suppose if you left the cables connected for a long period of time after you started the bike, you could encounter higher regulator temperatures, but as a practical matter this isn’t a concern.

I don’t know the exact specs on the Ducati starter motor, but in general, motorcycle-size starter motors draw around 30 amps under no load (max rpm) and around 85 amps under typical starting torque loads for unmodified motors. However, this figure can briefly rise to 300 amps under a stall condition typical of the initial start requirements of a high compression motor.

If you look at the wiring running to the starter motor you’ll see that Ducati made a trade-off between cost and weight vs. electrical resistance. The higher the resistance, the lower the current that is delivered to the starter motor and the more electrical heating of the wiring. The lower the current delivered, the harder it will start.

Sizing the battery and starter cables for at least 100 amps seems more reasonable to me. A number of 996R owners have reported easier starting after they replaced these wires with a larger gauge.

But before you replace any wiring, first check the circuit for points of high resistance, Corrosion at the connection to the starter motor is the prime suspect because water often collects in the rubber boot covering the connection. Clean the connection anyway and then fill the boot with dielectric grease to keep the water out.

When a battery nears the end of its life, often the voltage across its terminals will measure 12 volts or so, but it can’t deliver sufficient current to turn the starter motor so all that you get is a solenoid click.

Finally, the technique to connect jumper cables needs clarification.

The last connection that you make will generate a spark. This connection can be made to the chassis (earth) of EITHER vehicle but only at a location physically distant from the hydrogen gas contained in both batteries.

Not wanting to go on about it again too much
(eg check this post http://www.ducatisportingclub.com/xm...5036#pid130663)
_but_ the weakest connections on many ducs are the angled brackets on the battery terminals.
They are simply cheapskate for something so important, and _will_ cause too much voltage drop when starting if they are even slightly loose.

re starter prob
 

If its the starter motor ,send it to :
RIBBLEDALE AUTO ELEC
PRESTON
PR1 5BY
TEL: 01772796047
017720555011
FANTASTIC FIRST CLASS SERVICE it was
like knew when it came back and cheap
roll:

Battery arrived this morning which I swiftly fitted on and then nervously pushed the button and nothing!:( But there was a difference the same click but then followed by the fuel injection whining slightly... pushed the button again and nothing but still got the noise off the injection system. Tryed once more and it started:puzzled:
So whereas Im chuffed to bits its going again Im now worried that the same problem will happen again in the future given I still dont actually know what caused it in the first place. Get the feeling though that it just has to be a bad connection so Im getting the grease and WD40 out this weekend with a wire brush and clean/tighten everything up!!!
Still gotta look on the bright side its working and Ive got a nice spare battery now :lol:

Glad thats its started at last for you!

I dont think many batteries come fully charged - maybe a charge / optimiser session might help as well.

Derek has suggested some other things to try in this post:

http://www.ducatisportingclub.com/xm...6325#pid144471

As your bike is still under warrenty - i think it really is time to get it booked in - just depends how comfortable you are working on the bike versus how much time / resources you have.

Reading between all the lines the culprits 'could be'

Battery (hopefully ruled out)
Earth and other connections - quite a few to check out.
Starter solenoid
Starter motor

You seem to hint the FI motor didnt sound quite right as well - another for the list.

Plus - sometimes, new spark plugs can cheer up a poorly bike.

Good luck - Frank

Did you give the battery an extra charge before you fitted it?
You will need to keep the new battery topped up with charge in future.
So...............socket in garage,Optimate permanant lead on bike,plug in when bike not in use.

That is all!;):D:D:D

Battery fault finding
 

OK. I am a battery/battery charger engineer and i'd like to weigh in with my 4p worth.... It's VERY unlikely that you will do any damage jump starting from a car engine provided the bike and car have the same battery voltage (12v), but some delicate electronics can be damaged if the cars engine is running - it's VERY rare though. I've known CAR electronics to be blown doing this due to a faulty BIKE regulator stuffing a voltage spike back up the jump leads! Best advice is to use the car battery to jump the bike WITH THE CAR IGNITION OFF.

BTW Car batteries have a signicantly higher capacity than bikes so can crank for longer - SO BE SENSIBLE. Don't hold the starter button in for ages and allow the cables to cool off if they start to get warm.

FAULT FINDING: If you measure a battery and it gives approx +12v but all you get is a click when you press the starter button, connect the voltmeter directly to the battery (not the connectors on the end of the leads but directly to the battery terminals themselves) THEN press the starter button. If the battery has a high impedence (ie it's knackered) the terminal voltage will collapse. Time for a new battery. If the battery voltage barely changes then no current is being drawn and the problem lies elsewhere.

This is a more accurate method than the old "see if your lights go out when you press the starter" method. Your lights will go out if the battery is duff OR if you have a bad connection.

try this
 

i've had the same problem on and off. I've replaced bat, and checked connections. But it still sometimes happens.
I'm planing to replace the starter solenoid with a better one, based on this article.

Try this http://www.ducatisuite.com/startersolenoid.html

I actually used one from a Mini1000 !!!

http://www.users.waitrose.com/~paso/parts.htm#Electrics