the old power debate
 

after my mate borrowed and totalled a mates gsxr1000 at the weekend we had the usual pub debate over how much power/engine size a bike/we really need/use/cope with ................

i argued that we dont need anything more than a 750 il4 or a 996 v twin which most people agreed on. then it turned to wouldnt you like more power/top speed from your ducati which i would and i said i would probably just bore the engine out to 853 instead of finding a clean 996 to which they all laughed and said buy a 996. i argued that i can already corner much quicker than them and dont need the xtar power and why sell a bike with ohlins,single seat unit etc just for a bigger engine with less upgrades. then came suggestion of planting a 996 engine into the 748 frame

is it possible to just bolt a 996 engine into a 748 frame or is there more to it than just that, it could be fun seeing their faces when my little od slow 748 keeps up with them on the straights and then ****es all over them in the bends.

thoughts please ladies and gentlemen :puzzled::puzzled:

or buy a 996 .. transfer the bling bits from the 748 onto it and then sell the 748 in more "standard" trim .....

What are we talking ?? single seat unit - 2 pins .... ohlins damper, rear shock and maybe forks ??

unless you are also running rearsets, slipper clutches and radial stuff then thats about it .....

also cornering quicker on the 748 is down to you as the rider, not down to the bike as they are as close to identical weight wise on a "like for like" spec as it gets ....

This doesn't answer your question, but it's interesting

the leaders in the British Supersport race would have finished in the points in the British Superbike Race at Brands even though they are down about 50 bhp

Other people will have more complete information, but I would have thought the engine certainly will bolt straight in. It's usually the ancillaries that get you into trouble. You will need an oil cooler, you'll need the 996 throttle body assembly and possibly the airbox. You'll need the ECU or at least the right chip if it uses the same ECU. There might be some wiring harness differences as well, certainly if you go for a SPS engine which has dual injectors and two engine pickups. That's for starters, but don't let that discourage you.

Skidlids will chime in in a minute.

the arguement was over fitting a larger engine or upgrading to a 996 but i was more curious as to wether it was possible or not, cost effective and all that


as i said i can out ride any of the guys through my local cornish twisties and get a good gap with the v tiwn grunt but on a long stretch they just leave, i was flat out on sunday on a local bypass, no traffic and my mate on his r6 just went past with so much ease it was like i was parked up and i was doing 140 at the time, luckily theres always a bend at every end of straight, thats why i dont want lose the ohlins rear/damper and front susp

i cant afford to do any of it im more curious about whats possible and want to settle a debate


i like the point about the supersport riders being in the points on monday goes to show its the riders and not the bikes

Just my own view on this power thing?
160/170 horsepower in inexperienced hands equals your mates dead bike
More often than not ends up with Dead mate to!
Some riders get on the latest mental japs and slowly learn their way in to them, some crash.
Road bikes for the masses, just go and test ride one, Fu*k me ZX10 gonna get a few.
I think if you have been riding for a long time slowly building your own skills and progressing through different bike handling and horsepower and you still sh*t your pants when you light the torch on one of these latest missiles. You got to think about the newbi Billy Big Bo**xs giving it large on one.
Strait in at this level of horsepower Nooooo
I once watched a young testosterone filled matador gored and trampled by a Bull. It was a case of to much Bull to quickly. If he had lived he may have gone on to a Bull of that size but he defiantly was over powered that day Ek
:sniff::barfy:

If you want real power then chuck in a TL1000 motor:P














I'll get my coat:lol:

Now thats a point!!:devil: I suppose you would have a lot more modifications to deal with. The thing is, if you like the desmo engine then it would be a no no. Ducati purity and all that.

My 748 has been converted to an 853 by Sigma. I have to say that it is quite a little beast. ;):devil: What I would like to try is a 748R converted to an 853. I bet that is a missle?

DC.:burn:

Well with regards to the engine fitting in the frame...my guess would be yes. As far as I'm aware the only frame that may be differrent is for the 748R...which has a larger airbox than any other 748/9** variants....so don't know if this means it has a slightly different shaped frame or not???

But you would need to think about why you are doing it. Unless you were a Skidlids or somebody who has a lot of contacts in the bike world and access to the bits needed...as well as the required *mechanical knowledge, premises, patience, funds (*delete as appropriate!) to sort something like that, you could in the long run find yourself with an expensive project, that lets face it, will then have naff all residual value.

I think dibs is right in that the way to go would be to find a bargain 996 etc and transplant the bling over to it from your great 748:roll:

As you know, I picked up probably bargain of the century with my 916SP...but with 130 BHP at the rear wheel...all the bling you'll ever need...for £5K...it has to be a better option than building your own special?

Now as for an 853 kit...well thats another discussion entirely:frog:

Deej, I think you could get a bit carried away chasing horsepower. Having said that, I think it really depends on your riding. Take Jools for example. He has a similar amount of power and more than holds his own in the fast groups and on the rideouts.

If you don't have the latest Japanese missile, then your mate who does is always going to go past you on the straights. Unless you get a Desmosedici RR or a 999R and spend money on it then you are always going to be at a horsepower disadvantage. In my mind, you'd be much better off getting an 853 kit from someone like Sigma Check out the dyno charts on the Sigma website. Have a chat to DC, he's had it done.

Your biggest speed advantage is a nice strong midrange, with plenty of torque to fire out of corners with and your ohlins suspension. Anyone can go fast in a straight line.

[Edited on 30-3-2005 by TP]

R's have a different frame as one of crossmembers is different for the deeper airbox. There's been some threads about fitting the R airbox to the other bikes, and it involves a bit of modification to the airbox (or the frame if your brave....)

If I were after more power, I'd go for a 996 and transplant my special parts across.

But then again, I do know where there's and 853RS.....

I've just had a 996S engine fitted to my 916 by Steve at Moto Rapido - It seems like this was pretty straightforward (apart from 3 hours to get a damaged swingarm pin out!)
The S engine needed sleeves for the mounting bolts as they are 10mm on the 916 and 12mm on the 996.
The throttle bodies came from the 916 but as Felix said, I think the 748 has smaller ones so you'll need to source some, airbox should be ok and you will need an oil cooler.
Only thing that doesn't work at the moment is the neutral light as Ducati changed the way this works between the 916 and 996 but it should be a fairly simple mod with a couple of wires. Besides, neutral is usually pretty easy to find and the old one used to lie anyway.
I have an FIM Ultimap chip so refuelling was just a matter of tweaking over a few dyno runs.
If you go for the S engine instead of an SPS you basically get the same engine but with the flywheel to suit your ECU instead of the P8 computer version.
Only other mod to mine was a Ferracci lightweight flywheel - the final dyno run measured 127.6bhp at the rear wheel which was a pleasant surprise to me, Steve and Wilf as we were expecting about 123.
The old 916bip engine made 106 at the wheel - the extra 20 horses is still making me smile! No more trouble getting past 600s I hope.

Oh - and an 853 kit is pretty much a set of 916 barrels and pistons!
I also weighed up the cost of going to 955 with the 916 and by the time i bought cams etc it came to more than the transplant.

748 has restrictors within the throttle bodies that can either be machined out, or replaced with TB's from a larger capacity bike.

I believe it's due to Supersport restrictions.

Just get a 996/8 and stick 748 fairings on it :)

748 fairings - now there's an idea.......:devil:

MotoDesigns in York just fitted one of Nelly's 853 kit to a 748SPS, to create a 853SPS. It was fired up last weekend, but the first ride report is still to come. Should be good fun.

Nice of you to say so TP, but I wouldn't mind a bit more power myself.

In my mind it depends completely on how, and where you ride. If you do most of your riding on trackdays, then you will want every last drop of power you can lay your hands on, although even on the track there is something to be said for predictable power characteristics like a Duke rather than hitting the powerband on an IL4 and finding yourself spat off the highside. Control is more important than out and out bhp, as even the MotoGP teams are discovering.

If you're like me and do most of your riding on the road, with two or three trackdays a year, then how much power do you really need? Not much is the answer. I've only got 83 bhp on my ST2 and I can keep up with most people because 83 bhp is enough power to go as fast as most people would want to go on the road and remain this side of sheer lunacy. The limiting factor is not power, but the road conditions and the rider. The guys I ride with are pretty quick, but ride within their limits and the road conditions. There are lots of people who are quicker on the road than me, but that's mostly because they're better riders not because they have another 40-50 bhp.

I've said it before, and I will say it again, that my ideal road bike would be a grunty V-twin with about 100 bhp and weigh about 160 Kg. Paul Mort's Bloooooo Duke is not far off my ideal road bike (except that it still weighs a little more than my ideal....oh, and it's blue which is not my cup of tea - sorry Mort).

Any more than that and you can't really use the power on the road...except on the straight bits. The straight bits are not where it's at for me cos anyone can twist a throttle wide open on a straight bit.

Summat like the red beastie in the background with MBP testarossa heads, BST wheels, Brembo billet calipers, Brembo radial brake and clutch master cylinders and Ohlins all round would do me nicely ta




[Edited on 30-3-2005 by Jools]

[Edited on 30-3-2005 by Jools]

I would have considered this easy for me to say I suppose, my 996 has approx 120 rwbhp thanks to Neil Spalding plus shorter gearing and a lightened flywheel for added excitement :D

But, having just done a track day on the 620 monster sporting around 60 rwbhp I can understand the frustrations of people with less bhp. Bearing in mind as well that the 620 is still heavier than the CBR's, R6's etc that have over 100bhp. I found that I would get blown away on the straights and held up in the corners, or I'd get the chance to go around the outside of some people on much faster bikes. Initially I found that immensely satisfying but then just frustrating as they'd go by me again, at the end of the day they are just worse riders than me. They may have had problems, not had the suspension set up etc etc ... who knows.

This is why I think that a good torquey midrange is the most important engine characteristic and behind well setup suspension as the most important mods to a bike. A good torquey midrange will fire you out of corners, you'll be on the power quicker than the big bore boys and give yourself more of a chance of not being mugged by the next corner ....

As a reminder of how it being more about rider skill ... a guy on a SuperMotard came past me and I couldn't catch him. I was right behind him going into Paddock Hill bend and he was leaning back with his foot out. I was laughing in my helmet ....

Or of course...one of these.



If you're listening Santa, I'll be a good boy all year...promise.

Read about it HERE

[Edited on 30-3-2005 by Jools]

Neil Spalding has a few tasty idea's about tweaking that engine :devil:

Which incidentally Jools, will give you more than 100rwbhp and in that thing weighing 118kg!!!

Woohoo!!!

All this talk of 853 kits, how much are they ?????????????????????:eureka:

The TL1000 idea actually looks quite good to me! I dont know if a TL motor would have the soul of a Ducati though. Loads of power though and propper service intervals:devil:

http://www.rhencullen.co.uk/rhenspecials.htm

it was only a pub debate that got out of hand which i wnated your views on

without being big headed i am 1 of the 2 best riders in the group so have the confidence and knowledge that i can kick all their ass's up until 130ish, yes i know we shouldnt ride that fats on the rodas but it happens and iw ill only ride as fast as i feel safe and confident to do so

i must admit to having thoughts of a 853 kit, i know it wont add any vlaue to the bike but it may just be what im after without going full hog and buying a 916 just yet, i want to get used to riding this thing properly but would like a bit extra up top

i love the whole ducati experience, the looks, the noise, the low down grunt, the envy and jealous looks of other riders, its great... i just miss that top line speed and whail of a il4

so anyway how much for a 853 kit

I toyed with the idea of getting a 748 and getting one of Nelly's 853 kits on it.

About 2 grand all in, fitted, tested etc...

That was a couple of years back mind, but the thought of a cheapish 748 which you could pick up for about £3.5 K back then with effectively a new refurbished engine for £5.5K all in was quite appealing.

[Edited on 30-3-2005 by Jools]

Jools, that Poggipolini NCR Ducati 1000 Millona bike is 999R money, $35k USD or £18,600 GBP (currently, xe.com) plus whatever imports you'd have to pay.

They do offer an upgrade ...


Grrrr .....

Imagine 105 rwbhp in a bike weighing 118kg's in that chassis!

[Edited on 30-3-2005 by TP]

Bearing in mind that the 748R engine is basically a sleeved down 996 one, I can see no good reason why a 996 engine wouldn't go straight in.
I don't really see any good reason to put one in either tbh, if you check out the sigma site I believe the 853R he did was putting out around 120bhp and cost about £2000 to do. Thats got to be cheaper than changing your bike, and in many cases is just as powerful as a 996 anyway. (notwithstanding tuned ones of course) I used to chat a bit with some guys who ran a supersport spec 748RS which was producing 127bhp, imagine that with an 853 set up!
I know my little bike is expected to pull around112 when I get the power commander set up, and already does 108, that's more than most 916's, and it is standard bar 50mm end cans.
On my good friday ride out I was with two friends on 600's an SRAD and a CBR, I left them both for dead on a straight bit. I know anyone can do straights and all that but it does go to show that dukes aren't as slow as all those il4 guys seem to think.
Don't follow the herd deej, that little duke will teach you so much more about riding than any mass produced ujm ever could! :)

Deej,

Around £2k is still the price for an 853 conversion at pretty much any of the tuning shops.

If you accept it'll never add £2K to the value of the bike, but you're unlikely to lose money, you're in a good place to accept the cost.

I know Bradders had considered this option for his 748, but decided to upgrade to a 916SPS for pretty much the same cost.

I've got the same base engine as you, but during the head rebuild had a set of SP cams, SP pistons, and vernier pulleys fitted, also had the cams dialled in, dyno setup etc, and it was pushing out 101 before it left the workshop. That should rise as thinks loosen up.

Mr_S

Thats very sneaky. Thats the thing to do with cars! How about a 2 litre gold turbo with 1.6L badges, he he!:o

Or a Datsun 260Z with a 4.0L quad cam V8 stashed away with a twin-screw supercharger supplying the air ;)

Inline 6 my ar$e!

Been thinking about something else since this thread began......

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...4200 569&rd=1

Purely for the straights of course :)

Driven cars with this type of "extra" and it's a right "giggle"

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

I bet!

Can't see anything in the DD rules prohibiting NOS either......

Oh, how much fun would that be..........

I could use something like that!

On my good friday ride out I was with two friends on 600's an SRAD and a CBR, I left them both for dead on a straight bit. I know anyone can do straights and all that but it does go to show that dukes aren't as slow as all those il4 guys seem to think.
Don't follow the herd deej, that little duke will teach you so much more about riding than any mass produced ujm ever could! :) [/quote]

You have a point there.

I know that I have the 853 engine now so I suppose that I am cheating a bit but I always get the riders of the jap bikes looking surprised when you stay with them or blow them away. They seem to think that their jap rockets are the only bikes on the road that are gonna whoop some ass.

I know that before the duke I only had jap bikes and have nothing against them, they are great machines. If I had a bottomless pit of cash I would have more of them. But............... I think that it is the case of people reading to much bull in the bike mags and once you have a decent Ducati. You realise that having 100 odd horses and a decent chassis goes a long long way. Now, wheres that sps engine!!!!:devil:

DC.:burn:

I've got the same base engine as you, but during the head rebuild had a set of SP cams, SP pistons, and vernier pulleys fitted, also had the cams dialled in, dyno setup etc, and it was pushing out 101 before it left the workshop. That should rise as thinks loosen up.



mr s i like your stylem, how much did that little lot cost and what difference did it make, mines going in for a service soon and may be nice little pre wedding treat to myself, would it be best to buy new or is used okay for these parts, i dont normally bother modifiying car/bike engines but this could add a little extra spice to sunday rideouts and for when i finally take her to a track

I had the work done because I'd planned for a head rebuild, and was offered a deal on the cams & pistons.

The verniers were a bit more challenging, as it turns out STM have stopped making them to focus on slipper clutches, but got some from the US for £299 inc Vat.

The work was done at MotoRapido in Winchester, and was added into the cost of a 12K service and Top End upgrade so, you're looking at around £750 plus parts and vat for the basic fitting of the cams etc, then dialling the cams in takes a little longer so you're looking at a few hours labour there, and add on that a bunch of dyno runs for setup of the chip (I had 14 runs), so more labour there depending on how precise you want to be.

Used is fine for these parts, as long as it's a reliable source, bearing in mind cams can be scored by bad rockers, pistons can be in all sorts of a mess etc...

To be honest, I'd check with Harv to see if he's had the head rebuilt already, if he has then I wouldn't go to the expense for the sake of it. The only reason I did this is because a head rebuild was being done anyway (had to replace all the rockers too / thank christ for ebay and a set of low mileage heads.) so most of the labour was being absorbed by that. If you don't need a head rebuild, 853's about the same cost, and will give a similar power gain.

If you're thinking of this, you'd be looking at between £1.5-2K, although you end up with a bike that punts out more power and, is effectively an SPS in a bip frame.

Performance wise, I'm really pleased with it, last couple of weekends have seen me upsetting Blade and GSXR owners, especially when they double take the 748 logo's :) and I'm not a gifted rider, leaving a safety margin the size of yorkshire when on the road.


Next I'll be working on my skills, 3 TD's booked already this year, nad trying to juggle work dates for a return to CSS, although I'm trying to convince Wilf at MotoRapido to let me take his 853RS out. Just to see where to go next......Although he's got to rebuild the thing first.

Sod the flat out speed its much more fun stuffing the jap crap in the twisty bits :sing::sing::sing:


If you want more fun go for the 996 :cool:

If you happen to come into some money buy a 998 :cool:

[Edited on 31-3-2005 by AGE996]

as Mr S says, I was this close (cut to forefinger and thumb less than 2mm apart) from having an 853 kit fitted to my 748.

But....for £2.5k (cost of all the work) I got a mint 916sps with 126bhp and 77lb torque:)

I guess the difference is that I had a fairly standard E model, no ohlins or bling to speak of. If I had all that on there, chances are I may have made a different decsion....but I glad I didnt, because it is no less fun (more so because of the awsome accelaration) and its lost almost no money from what I paid a year ago.

If you can afford to chuck £2.5k away on relase value, and your going to rag it everywhere, probably worth it. If not, spend the cash on a 996sps/R (depending on what yuors is worth) and swap any bits over which are not on the new bike.

just my view