Still no resolution from Ducati...
 

Just thought I'd update you guys about my accident. The factory and Brembo are still analysing my brakes and preparing their report (5 weeks after having the parts in Italy). Ducati UK have offered to replace the parts removed from my bike (callipers/discs/lines/master cylinder) as a 'goodwill gesture', so my insurers can then repair the accident damage. I've declined as the resale value of my bike with a £5000+ insurance payout recorded against it will be peanuts. I've also already lost my no-claims bonus, and I don't see why I should stump up for a massively inflated insurance premium while the 'investigation' trundles on. I've also had other accident related costs too.

I wish I'd never bought the bloody thing in the first place now. I thought buying a prestige marque was worth something? Obviously not :(

This is a real bummer, I really do sympathise and I guess Ducati have their reasons. But it could of been anyone on any bike at the end of the day, not just a Ducati.

Ultimately it's just another bike, like any other

sorry to here your news... hope you get it sorted..

if your in dire straights i've got mine in garaged unused---see

b******s

I'm sorry to hear that :(

If in the end they assume responsibility, don't forget to "charge" them all of that, but if they decline......... then you'll have a long road ahead to claim your rights. :(

Twin Fan, I feel for you chap.

This has really gone on to long.

What was Ducati's response when you declined the offer and gave them the reasons as outlined in the top post?

Jobr - I was asked to detail all the reasons in an email, which I did, and I believe it was passed to the factory. Ducati UK thought it might help them see the size of the problem.

The thing is, how long does it take to look at a set of brakes, diagnose a problem, and write a report? Why have 2 other bikes with exactly the same problem been sorted? Simple. Because my bike needs replacing/fixing and no-one wants to pay. It stinks, and I'm losing out big time :(

TF, think you are probably right.

I know its far easier to say than do but stay positive and fight for what is right.

If in the end you have a nice gleaming 2005 bike you know you will enjoy it.

Here's hoping...

It seems to me that there's a best case and worst case scenario, and both those scenarios are at the opposite end of the spectrum for each party.

Best case for you is if Ducati or Brembo put their hands up and admit that they have a faulty batch of components leaving Brembo's factory and being nailed onto Ducati 749/999's, they give you a replacement bike, compensate you for uninsured loss and bingo, you're one happy bunny. Trouble is that in admitting liability Ducati or Brembo are laying themselves wide open to class actions from around the world, they may have hundreds of claims to deal with (some of which may be bogus), they may even be blamed for loss of life. Brembo's business is based upon the confidence that many automotive companies (cars and bikes) place in the safety of their product and their reputation takes an almighty knock and possibly a drastic shift away from their product to Nissin or whowever. Ducati are just about laying the ghost of dubious reliability earned in the pre American ownership days, when along comes a fault that could possibly kill people, all at a time of falling bike sales. A PR and commercial disaster wouldn't you think?

Any reputable company would do there level best to face up to their responsibilities, but would you admit liability unless you had checked, checked and rechecked any dubious brakes, done some research around you dealer network about how prevalent this was, done some statistical analysis on where any remaining bikes might have been shipped and checked to see how many other manufacturers might have a claim against Brembo. Working for a large corporate, I can tell you 5 weeks is nothing to do that sort of work, and it takes a lot of resource and costs a lot of money just to investigate anything.

So best case for you=worst case for Ducati.

Worst case for you is that they find nothing wrong with the brakes (despite all the checking above), they find no evidence to suggest this is a brake epidemic. They could put it down to inadequate maintenance (corroded, ungreased pistons and pads can stick) or they may find nothing at all wrong and put it down to rider error, after all, they only have your word for the cause of the crash. I'm not doubting your honesty for one moment, but in the same way that insurance companies kick up a fuss the moment you make a claim, you can see that they'd want solid evidence of brake failure.

So worst case for you=best case for Ducati/Brembo

There are a large number of shades of grey between these two black and white examples, but you see what I'm saying?

I see what you're saying Jools. However:


Bike was 9 months old, had covered 1600 miles, and recieved it's 625 mile service as indicated in the Ducati service schedule. Any faults like the ones you suggest are either the dealer's fault at service time or the factory's fault at assembly time.


So one brake disc turning blue and one staying silver is normal for a braking system under normal road use? Surely to prove there wasn't a fault with the braking system is going to be difficult?

[Edited on 27-4-2005 by Twinfan]

Mate... make some more noise and lots of it :o Give them a deadline and stick to it and tell them you want it resolved or else... Have a chat with MCN they might be keen on hearing you problems... Hope they sort it for you soon mate :(

I don't want to go around shouting the odds as it's not my style. I was hoping something could be sorted amicably for all parties. That's still my aim :)

Unfortunately, that doesn't mean anything. It's a bit like an MOT - it only means that the car passed the test on that particular day at that particular testing station and does not guarantee it's road "worthyness".

For all Ducati know, you could have left the bike out in your front garden between the first service and when you had your accident. The brakes could well have seized or the pins corroded, or vampire mice ate the brake lines, or anything to cause the brakes to lock as they did. This is why they are taking so long to check everything.

<harsh mode>
There is a section in the owner's handbook about pre-ride checks, and this is their Get-Out clause should something like the above have happened and you didn't check it before riding, as it is your responsibility.
</harsh mode>


Yes, you're right in that it isn't consistent with a correctly performing brake system, but what caused that fault is what everyone wants to find out.

<harsh mode>
I think Ducati have been very generous so far in offering to replace everything to get you going again. By doing this they've made an offer, which you have declined, and so claiming for any extra expense from this point forward is going to be very tricky.

You may be lucky and it turns out to be a faulty component and they'll replace everything as a goodwill jesture. But don't be surprised if it turns out to be poor maintenance and you get left with nothing.
</harsh mode>

How many more weeks :mad: Its not rocket science... Ask them whats going on and why its taken 5 weeks to look at the faulty parts :mad:

I would have taken this to the press some time ago as it's the most proven way of getting a response out of any publicity-sensitive company.

Don't be shy, write up the incident in the most sensationalist way you can imagine (read a copy of the daily mail for preparation) and badger every motoring journo in the UK to publish. Point the journos in the direction of this board for corroborating stories and they'll have a field day.

In the meantime forward your article to both DUK and Freddy Minolo as food for thought. If you're vigilant I'm sure they will come round to your way of thinking.

Do not lay down and take this, you deserve a full rebuild or a new bike, not some new brake bits and a fob-off.:flame:

Ali

I agree with Ali. Make your fight public. Speak up, otherwise I can see this situation being swept under the carpet.

So does it state in the handbook that "this vehicle must be garaged at all times in a humidity controlled environment"??? This is a vehicle designed to be used for transportation, in all weathers if necessary. If leaving it outside in all weathers for a few months (which I didn't!!) caused such a problem, it would not be "fit for purpose" and therefore I would entitled to a replacement or refund.


Am I supposed to strip and rebuild the brakes before riding then? That's a new one on me. Does anyone else do that?


They have been generous, that's true. However I want to know what the fault was before the bike is repaired. It could be a design fault, they could put the parts on and I could have another accident. I don't think it's unreasonable to want to know what the problem was before having it fixed.

No, but it does state that you should check the operation of the controls before riding - and that's enough to cover their asses.

I have to say that i'm 100% behind Twinfan on this one. Break failure on a motorbike can be catastrophic, and can result in loss of life. Sure Brembo and Ducati don't want to risk any bad press with an admission that they have (accidently) used faulty parts, but what about the individual? All this stuff about the onus being on the rider to check every component on the bike before riding it, is laughable, and i'm sure, pretty bloody annoying to read for Twinfan. My bike was less than 1 year old, when my brakes seized, I had no warning, I don't have a team of technicians to strip the bike down everytime I ride it. I use my bike everyday, so for sure, it's been out in the rain, by hey, it was designed for this. Ducati replaced the parts on my bike as a gesture of good will, but I have been in agony with a trapped nerve since the accident, that DEFINITELY wasn't my fault, although I do admit to not stripping and rebuilding the bike before I took it out - so my fault then I guess?

Rubbish. That means they would never have to pay out for any mechanical failure that caused an accident. Legally, that can never be the case.


Yes it is.

I agree with you - but until you know it was definitely brake failure caused by a design fault then speculation as to the cause is all you have to go on.

Just trying to put a realistic spin on this - what will you do if it's found that it was brake failure caused by a corroded piston, or a leaking seal, or simply a stuck return valve in the master cylinder? None of those things would be considered a manufacturing or design defect but could cause the same problem.

Corroded piston - Bike has 12 months warranty. Ducati pay.

Leaking seal - Bike has 12 months warranty. Ducati pay.

Stuck return valve - Bike has 12 months warranty. Ducati pay.

It's that simple isn't it?

I'm sure plenty of people have been following Twinfan's story with some interest, and there have been lots of people worried about the brakes on their bikes (me included), and I can understand where Antony is coming from, but to expect a blanket exclusionary clause, like checking the bike before you ride, to cover an obviously catastrophic failure like this, is not acceptable at all.

You can understand why Ducati/Brembo wanna keep this as low key as possible, and in my experience, taking the softly softly approach brings more results than shouting and screaming and going to the papers! It might well come to that, and I know you've been waiting a long time now, but it might be worth keeping a dialogue with them...then see what happens??

All of this is no consolation for Twinfan...I feel for you mate, I'd be gutted.

I don't think it is - certainly not in terms of what you're asking.

Yes, the above would be replaced under warranty and, as you've stated above, Ducati have already offered to do this.

However, claiming for plastics and assorted damage as well might not get you anywhere and this is where I'm coming from with the "check before you ride" get-out in the manual.

But we'll see what happens - it's certainly an interesting thread!

So if I'd stripped the brakes before I went out, found nothing wrong (I'm not a mechanic, remember), then the accident happened, what then? I always do simple checks before I go out and the bike seemed fine.


I am mate, I am :(

Antony, WTF have you been smoking???

If I bought a brand new VW Golf (for example) went round a corner at 60mph and the wheels locked up, throwing me under an oncoming lorry, killing my entire family, I'd want some f***ing answers! Just because we're talking about a 'high performance machine' doesn't change the rules one bit. Brakes are for stopping anything from a push bike to jumbo jet, if they malfunction during a warranty period then any damage sustained as a side effect of that malfunction should (and I'm sure in a court, would) be covered by the manufacturer.

As khu states, there's no such thing as a blanket exclusion clause when it comes to liability. Any clause in any contract must be workable in the real world or it's null and void (I've had recent experience of same). If you said that everyone should check their brake pistons (on any vehicle) every time you use that vehicle then you'd be laughed out of court, especially if you're talking about a period supposedly covered by warranty.

If DUK have offered to replace anything at all then it's proof of admission that the original items were defective. I would use that as a starting point to rip the arse out of those responsible for the delay, and ensure that your wife isn't left a widow the next time you buy a new duke. TF/Necroscope deserve full support of the club in getting this sorted. It's a damn shame that DUK don't feel it necessary to comment on this in public.

</rant>

Good point, well made.

BUT....

We don't know the full story yet, and as such cannot draw anything but speculative conclusions as to the cause.

Please bear this in mind - that's all I'm trying to say.

so from a customers point of view? where did you go wrong? you only bought the bike,put the faith in product (ducati) .me-i would struggggle to listen to what you have been told.

It doesn't matter what caused the brakes to stick on. The fact is, they simply shouldn't do that. They should only work when you apply pressure to the lever.

This should have been settled by Ducati as soon as they saw the blue brake disc. The diagnosis should be at their expense, not TF's. A replacement bike is peanuts against all the money they spend on positive advertising.

TF.....I'm gutted for you. Stick to your guns & don't be fobbed off.

Surely the best option for all concerned is Ducati provide TF with a new bike FOC, in return Tf signs a compromise agreement drawn up between two solicitors.

Ducati then don't admit liability leaving themselves open but TF is happy and back on the road. Christ is a £10k bike not a multi million pound law suit they should get there arses in to gear and get TF sorted and be thankful it wasn't a hell of a lot worse.

Antonye, i believe your being devils advocate, and fair comments, if a bit harsh.

And as Jools says, these things can take time, and you should demand a response by end of next week, and the faulty parts returned to you. Write to the MD of Ducati UK.

What ever the product is, if it could have caused death, this has to be sorted, period.

You can always seek a second opinion, if you don't agree.

All the best TF.

This is as clear cut a case for a goodwill warranty as I have seen. Ducati should pay for the bike to be restored to "As New" including replacement plastics. That is what a class company would do. Furthermore, they should think themselves lucky no-one was killed on a nearly new Ducati with some kind of mechanical component defect.

Some years ago, I had a 5 y-o 35,000 mile BMW318 (old shape). The book specified that the cam belts should be replaced at a given interval otherwise the engine would seize and sure enough, mine did. They put in a brand new replacement engine under a goodwill warranty.

This is a no-brainer. Just hope it gets sorted out soon.

TF, remind us where you purchased the bike from again????????

I don't think that's relevant Jobr. My dealer has been chasing this as much as I have, and they only supplied me with the bike they were given.

Well we all now know, for a 100% certainty that Ducati do look at this forum. So hopefully, there will be a call soon and Twinfan will have a new 749 to ride or trade. For a brand like Ducati, the importance of good word of mouth can't be over stated, that's one of the main reason's full replacement parts were offered to me. Just think of the positive vibe a speedy and satisfactory result would engender. The longer this goes on the more mud get's thrown at Ducati's reputation. And as everyone knows... mud sticks.

I fimly believe that if YOU are adamant that there was a Brake failure, or problem that has caused this, then i would advise them you are thinking of initiating a legal claim, and then sets some reasonable deadlines.

I would also remind you of a little saying, 'you have to be in Court to settle it out of court!'

Every day this is prolonged, even if they are in the wrong, the money, cos thats what its all about, sits in their bank not yours!
When your in the wrong say nothing, when your in the right, shout shout shout!

All my point was TF was if it was DM or FS as I think it might have been give your man a shout from Flyde who seems to be on a roll to correct the dealership reputation slipping any further on this board.

Just because they say they are doing everything doesn't mean they are, believe me I have been in retail all my life.

Yes. I'll shut up now :D