620 big bore?
 

Wow what a weekend.
A veritable rollercoaster as far as we were concerned,Chris struggled with confidence after his Rockingham crash as well as the Reserve farce (thanks weeksy) .
All in all a great weekend (thanks to Paul fromm CSS for the practice starts) and now its just down to some track time to get the bike handling as Chris likes it and get the bike looking as pretty as it was before battle comenced!
Anyway to the point of the post ,i personally thought the MT have got the power spot on for the 583 bigbore bikes so as to be very even with rthe 620's (as this weekend proved)
however i am very concerned about the mutterings from 620 riders about going big bore before Castle Combe (i was told by 3 riders they are keen to do it) .
I realise it may be to late and we might be closing the stable door etc what with the fact that there is already onr 620 bb already on the grid and the fact that the final regs have been published but i can see a race series with a race within a race developing.
Is it too late to ban 620 bigbores and more importantly what do other competitors think?
Butch

Its already a 2-tiered race series, I shouldn't bother to go BB.
Tim:frog:

I'm with you Butch, there was a gentlemans agreement to keep things as even as possible and leave the 620 on standard bore.

The 583's were a little bit slower, but nothing too significant. I was just about able to reel in Andy (Team CK&AK) down the straight, but not by much, and Phil (583 big bored) was losing a few meters on me down there too but was able to keep on my tail for the whole of both races because he seemed to be the better rider.

I think the 620 bb's would be bad for the series, but at the end of it all we'll know who the trophies SHOULD have been going to, so if someone want to throw a shed load of money into boring a 620 then let them, but their victories will be hollow.

From AK

its not in the rules that they cant go big on the 620's, so it cant be stopped. It will always be the people with more money from sponsorship etc, to have the more powerful bikes - thats racing. However, there is STILL time to ammend this, but it needs to be done NOW.

Obviously riders capability comes into it too tho.

This was shown when Andy, who rode our bike, pulled rabbits out of hats to keep the 583 within a shout of the 620 team bikes (and also Ian's 620).

He said tho, however much he wringed the bikes neck, he was being 'mirror,signal, manouvered' past on the bottom straight by riders on the 620's.

A more powerful bike will pull away more on the bigger tracks.

This will be more evident by Snetterton - and we can see there being at least 2 classes within the race.

[Edited on 2-5-2005 by CK and AK]

Well sais Nick. Good honest post.

I agree that its in the rules,that wasnt my point.
Although the 620's had a SLIGHT advantage yesterday the racing was very close and was without a doubt great viewing for the spectators .
Even though our bike has been paid for and prepared solely by Chris and I ,
we Do have the money to go BB but are not willing to do so purely to keep the racing close.
Butch

[Edited on 2-5-2005 by butch890]

I didn't know there was a big bore for the 620.
I didn't know one was already racing with us, who is he ?
And I don't want to fit one on my bike, because I think it would become really unfair (even if I am a disadvantage for my bike).

My thoughts ... FWIW

Geoff Spencer is quick. I think he would still have won on a standard 620 and after speaking to him about bhp numbers his bike doesn't have an advantage over other 620's - he may have a better curve but there be bugger all difference in it IMO.

I've always thought that the bikes would be fairly even and I think the weekend proved it. It all comes down to the riders and seeing a 583 so far up the field proved that, plus seeing Phil and Ali doing so well.

I won't be going the big bore, if that sort of money was burning a hole in my pocket it would be going on more CSS days - I'm the limiting factor, not my bike. Especially if Nick (MBs996) and Ian Leah (the old man) don't do it because they are the ones I want to beat.

Just my opinion of course ...

kind of agree with you tony.

were i battling at the front 2,3,4,5th places i would probably get it done as i would be in the frame for podiums ,silverware, prizes etc but for me i have so much more to do as a rider first its not really an issue.

unfortunately there was a bit of a faux pas made in the regs, and its all very well and good having a gentlemens agreement but with hindsight the rule should have been changed. to be fair though the rules were there for all to see and you could buy any applicable bike you wanted up to the class limit. geoff is very quick as you say, havnt met him but wonder if he was not aware of the so called gentlemans agreement?

Your right Geoff is fast and his curves are undoubtedly looking sweet, I wouldn’t mind seeing a dino chart of that bike compared to a 583 though
I think that woodlands is not giving us the full pic yet.
I hope the 620s keep it close, it must be better for the hole field?
:o

Just as a guide, our 583 bike at this point is putting out:

48bhp at the rear wheel
compression is 160psi on the rear cyl, and 155 on the front - which is as it came offf the road - with over 18,000 hard commuter miles on it (no apparent servicing)

Got a DP 2 into 1 pipe work & MHP can on it.

Fuelling: Carbs are upjetted

No air filter or top (using remnant as catch can!)

Gearing is 14 front, 45 rear - rear is still as std when we brought the bike, so heavy steel one.

Believe me, if you're riding a 583/675 then you wouldn't think that!

The 620's have a big advantage, and the 680's have an even bigger one.

583 Fastest Lap:

Andy Johnson 0:50.20

620 Fastest Lap:

Clinton De Tarnowsky 0:48.77

680? Fastest Lap:

Geoff Spencer 0:47.81

Andy rode a blinder all weekend, and in my opinion was a match for Geoff on ability, so the 2.5 second diff over such a small circuit is HUGE!!

This is not a 'close' series, and it is not 'equal' in any way.

I'm very lucky that I'm in the position I am with Louigi, cos he'll build the same spec bike as Geoff, and a number of others who'll be having the work done for CC.

HOWEVER, I think that this is where the series will fall on its arse, and has lost the plot, coz Fil2 & Ali have the ability to win races in this series, but they will be denied by the poor decision making of the series rule writers.

Let me remind you of one of the main principles of the series, taken from the Desmo Due Racing Rules 2005


I think what you've done is...


I'm quite serious about this. It needs to be addressed, before you have a grid of 10 bikes, and a severe lack of interest. I haven't had to buy a bike, and I'm spending every penny I earn to do this. I don't see why I should be defeated by people who have plenty of money, but can't ride for toffee.

Feet need to be placed back on the ground.

This should always have been a 583 OR a 620 series and no big bores. Not all 3!!!

Perhaps he should try to stay on the bike then?

3 crashes????

(I know I fell off too, but at least I was fast :lol: )

domski - I thought fil & ali had bb?

Dont do yourslef down mate, from what I saw the results were about right.

As much as I'd love to see an even playing field I have a feeling the horse has definitely bolted! Geoff's obviously in another league (especially at Cadwell) and I agree that he'd have stood a good chance of winning without the BB, but I'm sure Dave, Mike and Clint would've been a fair bit closer.

As it stands I can't see anyone going to Geoff to ask him to take the BB kit off his bike, the dealership entries probably have the cash/free labour to make it happen, and there may be a couple of 'privateers' willing to stump up the cash as well, so I reckon there'll be a good 5-6 680ie bikes out there in the next couple of rounds.

As for the standard 620ie vs 675 debate, there's no doubt the 620s are slightly quicker, but it's an amount that I'm sure the likes of Fil, Antony, me, etc can live with. I'd love to get a bit more out of my engine, but do I really want to blow £1k just to beat 1 or 2 people?

Ali

Which is exactly my thoughts when the awards were being handed out yesterday.

I think it is bad enough for the series that the awards will go to 'works' riders who are not the rank-and-file members for whom (I thought) the series was devised. What message does it send out to the members who may be considering racing in future years? "It's ok to enter the series but you have to realise that it is for the benefit of dealers to field experienced racers on far superior kit"

No, I think to allow 620 injected motors to have a further advantage is a BIG mistake.

Disagree. Having one rider abuse the 'spirit' of the rules is exactly the right time for the series organisers to step in and say "No". If you leave it now then, naturally, the number of 680s will escalate and then the horse will have bolted.

so, is someone running a 620 BB then?

Have a look at the lap times and see if you guess who.

I think when you get to Snottyton, You will see the advantage of the big bore, what ever the rider.

i dont think you can go round changing things now, and all this talk about spirit is too late. everyone knew the rules when they entered and they could decided if they wanted to enter or not. i would love to know if geoff knew about the gentlemans agreement, if he did then its a pretty poor show, if not then he hasnt actually done anything wrong.
if a series is not a single model with no mods there will ALWAYS be differences. some people will always have more money and some people always have more ability. do we want to make it a hadicap series?

my bike is a bit quikers than tp's in a straight line. ok give me a weight penalty?
he has better ability. ok add some onto his instead?
my bellypans carbon. add to mine again?

i said it at the very start, this happens in 99% of motor sport i dont see the likes of honda, or suzuki offering to detune their bike to help out ducati in WSB.

Excellent post Nick, and a pretty fair assessment of the power differences between the 674 carby big bore and the 620's. I have to tell you though, that the difference is more than a few metres. From a spectators point of view the difference is very clear, just on the short start/finish straight the 620's would stretch around 3 bike lengths over the carbed bikes. On circuits like Cadwell woodlands where there are more twists than straight bits the difference is not so marked, but get on a 'faster' circuit and the 620's will rule the roost.

So, sorry Butch, but it's not the even stevens match between the big bore and 620. I know that I am not alone in this view, that was the general agreement of everyone I was spectating with.

Of course rider skill has a large part to play, that's why CK & AK's team getting a 6th place with a standard carby 583 against the 'works' teams was such a good thing to watch.

There are a couple of people I know who are both potential entrants for next year, both of them said that the series wouldn't be worth doing unless you were on a 620, and now it seems you'll need a 680 to be really competitive, otherwise you'll just be running in the middle of the pack however good you are.

That's racing. People will always push the limits. Unfortunately, the people with the money and the dealer backing will ratchet this competitive edge up and I think you'll see a widening gap between these boys and the 'privateers' as the season develops.

Do what us SS riders are doing, and fold the results page over at the first "normal" entrant and there are your real results :lol:

What to do then, let the field split from day one, rather hijacking the series with extra cash. Or stand up now and just say no to one bike? (STOP THE ROT)
If you restrict this now then the riders that will undoubtedly start to turn in to the racers they are
will be right up there with the racers already sitting on the leading bikes ( A racer Andy 6th)
Showed what can be done on, (no offence but by your own admission a minger)
Let these racers do some work and have to stay in front of the new race members of club on similar power bikes.
I think that some of the riders in the field have the potential to get up with race ones. A racer is only someone with more experience and all the new guys got some of that yesterday. Do they need a bigger gap to bridge than rider ability?

(HOW BIG IS YOUR WALLET) No
(HOW BIG ARE YOUR B**S) Yes

Only my view but I like to think this is a series for the new racer to get up, do well and maybe just maybe nick a cup for all his hard work and bravery. It would be a shame if this chance is taken away by a loophole in the rules.
:):):)

firstly, i really do think there should be contact between the 'race committee' and geoff to see what geoff's understanding was.

if he was unaware of any gentlemans agreement who will foot the bill to return his bike to 620? and there is no loophole in the rules. the class limit is 680. period.

it also seems to be becoming a bit of a witch hunt, lets not devalue was was a very good win.

Hear hear Dickie, I think this thread is a bit dismissive of Geoffs two very good wins. Let's not devalue it.

Hey no witch hunt from me they were two fantastic rides for the wins
I think he is the man to beat a great rider.

I know the rules but why the gentlemen’s agreement on this in the first place?

My views were simply for the series as a hole and don’t count for **** anyway.

Nice ride in race two TP :):):puzzled:

Thanks Eric, I'll put my report up soon. I'm just watching the MotoGP on Eurosport 2 at the moment (250's) and thinking about a beer.

I'm a bit sore and stiff today so just taking it easy for now, I'll finish unloading the van later this afternoon.

Eric, just one point though. Your view is perfectly valid and counts just as much as anyone else.

Oh look 4 classes on one grid

Class 1:- 583cc M600 & 600SS models
Class 2:- 674cc M600 & 600SS models with a bigbore kit
Class 3:- 620cc M620, 620SS and 620 Multistrada models
Class 4:- 680cc M620, 620SS and 620 Multistrada models with a big bore kit.

If points were awarded for positions in each class then there would be several in with a shout of the overall championship. That is 1st in each class scores maximum points etc etc.

If like other classes in racing half points were awarded for only a limited number of runners in each class then the overall champion would probably come from the class2 or class3 runners. As there are more running in these classes

So race winners will still be race winners but they may not be championship winners.

Thanks mate.

You’ve earned a good rest after that day’s racing.
Glad to see you took my advice and stayed on in that second race.

:lol::lol::lol:

And my 583 is putting out a bit more but my best lap was 58.10 cos i'm a total utter novice.

Some 620's (or maybe they weren't now - i don't know) were passing me on the straight like i was tied to a tree. It will be even worse at Snetterton for my little bike.
That said even if i'd had a 999 I couldn't have gone any quicker for now :sniff:

It's not an even playing field - no , but i'm there to give it a go so i'm sticking to my 583 and just enjoy the rest of the season.

Just wave to me as you go past guys so I don't get lonely
;)

:lol:

I nearly didn't, ask Phill and Chris about my motocross moment at the old hairpin! It was a bit of a pants filling moment!

except there is only 1 class in desmodue:

The motorcycle must be based on an air-cooled 2 Valve Ducati Twin cylinder produced since 1992, displacing no more than 675cc.

if anyone wants to run a smaller capacity its their choice.

Skids - thats exactly what Al & I were discussing on the way home yesterday.
We would like to keep our bike to the std 583, as the (much more expensive and totally useless) BB kit for the later engined M600's doesnt work.
However, even with dear mr Rossi on board, I think it would struggle to be anywhere in the 1st half of the field on any track with distance on the straights.

We cant afford a new bike, new engine, machining for barrells or whatever now, and have tied up over £350 in a 'kit' we cannot use, that reduces our already low BHP from 48 down to 39. Hence why the std engine.

MT/Race team management - over to you, your thoughts please, on what has been - and will be, a 'talking point'

unfortunately not mate - see my last post:(

The kit is pants:(

Well glad you kept it shiny side up, anyway! :)

This is getting out of hand (in my humble oppinion). I'm running a 620 (noisy cans and tweaked fueling) and came 5th and 4th (infront of Andrew). Does this make me a baddy? ********.

I read the rules like everyone else and made a decission about which would be the most competative solution. I spent every spare penny I had (of my own money, no sponsors, no outside help)(incidentally, I'm a locksmith, blue collar, a trade, I make my living driving arround in a van - just so you know) to build what I thought was the best bike I could for the money I could afford, and I rode my flaming socks off on Sunday. I wanted a top three finish but it didn't happen because I was beaten by people who, on the day were quicker than me.

This is racing, people want to win and if the rules permit it then someone will do it. It's like life, you make your decissions and you live with the concequences.

NOW.

On Friday I followed Geoff's (reputed) big bore and it wasn't significantly quicker down the straight than my 620. Yet on Sunday Geoff was over a second a lap quicker than anyone else - that's because on the day he was the better rider. It's as simple as that. Let me swap bikes with Geoff and I believe he would still have beaten me - on Sunday.

If you take out Geoff's bike and the Ducati Dealer bikes (incidentally the dealers can probably only run current Ducati kit, so they have virtually no choice over what they run) then the rest of the field (from me downwards) is a fairly well sorted mix of injected and carburetted bikes. To my mind that goes a long way to negating the big bore / 620 conspiracy.

Consider this. Even if Geoff does have the hottest bike on the grid, how much power do we seriously thing it makes, maybe 2 or 3 bhp up on a well prepared 620? On Saturday I raced in the SOT and beat an Aprillia Mille and a 996; both almost certainly putting out in excess of TWICE the power of my 620 sport. Geoff's lap time of Sunday would have got him a 4TH PLACE IN SOT - agains bike with over TWICE THE POWER.

Sunday's results have very little to do with power, they are about rider ability and that's the one comodity that cost each of us nothing. Short of a one make class like the R6 Cup, this is probably one of the closest technical classes any of us could race in. Instead of worrying about a handfull of bhp we should all leave Cadwell focused on inproving our ability - that's what I'm doing.

As an asside, I'm running a standard rear shock on my bike because I could not afford a fancy Ohlins / White Power etc. So I object most strongly to the unfair advantage possessed by those people who have most unsportingly gone out and spent huge amounts of money on exotic suspension components!

Is there a different kind of moment, other than pans filling? A large cork works if that’s any help. :o