decision on big bore ???
 

to all at DSC, thanks for a great weekends racing from all at London South.

there seems to be a lot of confusion over the "new" rules which were handed out at the weekend.

the main topic being the big bore on 620.

in our opinion, to keep the spirit of the clubs close racing series we suggest outruling this.

The 680cc kit is not compatible with the rules which state a maximum displacement of 675cc !

however if this is permitted we will quite happily join the majority in order to stay competitive on power.

Perhaps it may be easier and more sensible to put a stand on the original rules before it spirals out of control, leaving the spirt of the series behind along with valued DSC competitors

any thoughts on this ?????

what is the final decision and when will it be decided?

thanks

very well put,

you have summed up what alot of people have spent post upon post trying to say in your first one!

i agree.

one point though, i think the term '680 bid bore kit' is being used very loosly and the bike in question has been bored out to within the limit.

thanks for taking the time to post up.

There is some discussion happening within the racing committee at the moment and I expect that some sort of response will be forthcoming over the next day or two.

There's no rush beyond that in my view so we can afford to be 36 little fonzie's on this one.

:D

Thanks for posting guys.

ICE

DLS - you're right on the money.

The 620 bikes are already more powerful than carbed bikes, even those with the 674 big-bore kits.

Allowing the 620 bikes up to this limit is just going to split the field again and make it even harder for us carbed bikes to be competitive. Where's the sense in that?

Don't take away the superb rides from Andrew (CK&AK's bike), Fil2 and Ali as they were definitely underpowered, but just rode exceptionally well.

Look at it from our (the carbed bikes) point of view - where are we going to get more power from? We're already at the CC limit and we can't do anything to the head to release the extra power the big-bore kit was reputed to have given us.

It's frustrating for us even more than you guys as we're two steps behind the front runners with nowhere to go - at least you lot should be able to bridge the gap!

Well done Clint and Mike on superb rides over the weekend too. Excellent turnout from Marcello at DLS and shows how committed you guys are to supporting the Ducati Sporting Club.

;););););););););)

Could not agree more on this....

phil

I think the benefits of the 620 big bore are being overstated. I was speaking to Geoff on Sat night and his bike is making 62 bhp at the rear wheel. Any well sorted 620 is making the same. Geoff may have a better curve, I haven't seen it, but I don't think the difference is that much.

Big bores on a 620 are expensive and IMO the marginal gain is not worth the cost.

Another way of looking at it is this. Geoff's bike and mine are the same horsepower (well mw's bike was dyno'd at 62 and they were setup almost identical so mine would be the same) so I don't think the slightly better power and torque curves he has would give him the 3 to 4 seconds a lap he had on me on the woodlands circuit. He's just a much better rider - simple.

If I had chosen a 675 as my weapon of choice I'd have done the carb mods that no-one seems to have done as well, all the tuners say that this will even the performance between the 675's and the 620's. I have no idea how much this mod costs but if I was one of you lot I'd be looking into it.

If Phil and Ali had this mod I wouldn't be surprised to see them go past me and Nick and gap us, as it's fairly even between us at the moment.

Now stop bloody moaning! (Caveat - humorous dig, not a stab at anyone before my head gets bitten off)

;) :frog:

[Edited on 3-5-2005 by TP]

I'm going to print that out and stick it on the wall :lol:

*** CORRECTION ***

you were quicker than me at the first meeting.


*** CORRECTION ****

Three times.... :frog:

:lol:

You got me before I edited - re-read it and see if it makes more sense.

If not then I'll just STFU.

I'm tired ....

mickey mouse bloody circuit anyway!

:lol::lol::lol:

no, its a fair cop you beat me fair and square. :(

suppose, you're going to open a can of whupass on me at snetterton too.:mad:

LMFAO..its all i can manage at that tony..sorry m8

I think I might just STFU anyway ....

If I had a 620 this would be my view too. It would also be a steaming pile of do do!

Three BB 675s have been dyno'd and not one has made more that 51.8bhp. By your own admission MW's bike is making 62bhp. I have spoken to just about every Ducati tuner in the land, and couple in the US/Aus, and every single one of them say the same thing:

"The difference is valve diameters is so great that the only way you'll ever get close to a 620 is to do some serious head-work"

Believe me, I've looked at:

shorter inlet manifolds
keihin 39mm flat slides
dialling the cams
advancing the timing
using bellmouths
forced air induction

and the most optomistic estimate is 1.5 - 2bhp improvment.....for £1700!

Given that I believe none of us have £1700 to bin on mods we'll all be sticking with 51.xbhp, while the 620s will all be on 59-62bhp.

If you think that's a level playing field then you need a new spirit-level!:lol:

Sorry about the thread hijacking.

Cheers,

Ali

The Flatsides route is a fair comment BUT - (a) you have to source them and (b) you have to pay for them and (3) you have to get them fitted and spend time getting them setup.

As one of the very few places that sell them as a kit charge nearly $800 (less shipping and taxes, vat and import duty!) you're talking in the region of £600 for parts alone.

My understanding from the beginning of this was that a big-bored 600 *WOULD* be competitive with a 620. End of story.

Now it's becoming apparent that I should have just bought a 620 in the first place as getting a 600 competitive will cost more anyway!

Yes, I am moaning. I feel like I've been fed false information and it's already cost me points in the championship - that's what I've entered for.

i believe all this histeria about a big big bore kit is rider perception not fact ...

the 620 big bore kit gives only v v slight power increase but it does give a wider power band and slightly more torque ... all to keep it on a par with a v well set up big bore 583 (it is not just about fitting a big bore kit and instantly getting the power to be on a par with the 620's you have got to sort the carburation (shorter inlets and flat slide carbs) and set it all up correctly ).

the rules were formulated to allow people 2 choices either don't fiddle and fettle and buy a 620 or buy a 583 and work to get it on a par ... infact the feeling is that the big bore 583 with correct carbs and set up would beat a 620 on power and torque ... hence having the big bore 620 option is important as this would (if you wanted to spend the money) allow one to get even ... it's all v close thou' so the extra expence probably wouldn't be worth it unless running v close to winning the championship ...
the expected power outputs of a sorted big bore 583, standard 620 and big bore 620 are all around 62 -65 bhp however all this about different dyno figures is also very misleading as each dyno has a different reading to the other ... they are useful in evaluating dif engines run on the same dyno as a comparison but not worth it between dif dynos.

also look at sigma's article on the desmo due rules to see the background.

i was overtaken by geoff at the old hairpin near the end of the 2nd race and i was overtaken by the dls/dlc bikes at barn ... eg all within a short distance. geoff has a lot of local knowledge which i suspect the others haven't ... in qualification he was 0.6 secs a lap faster, at end of race 1 he was 7.12 secs clear (about 0.6 a lap faster) and at the end of the 2nd race he was only 3.35 secs clear which means a less than 0.3 sec a lap advantage ...i don't believe that's a power advantage .. that's local knowledge ... and what everyone seems to have forgotten ... rider ability (he is a v good rider who used to race against the baines's and beat them!) it all seems to me a great shame that everyone is concentrating on the hardwear issues and taking away from geoff what was a well earned and deserved win in both races.

for what it is worth i believe changing the rules so quickly as a knee jerk reaction would be wrong ... it's just too soon ... we need to see how it goes at the next race at the v least before looking at any changes...

riders also need to look at their riding and not their machines for the fact that they were slower than the bike infront ... alan johnson on a 583 came 5th and 6th.

Folks,

I have spent all of today since 08.30 working on this issue, beleive me the phone bill is going to be horrendous!

We are making progress and should be able to come back to the racers before lunch time tomorrow. I have a series of further planned phone calls to make this afternoon to obtain a conclusion!

We will be back to you as soon as we can, "keep the faih"

Chris

If that's the case then my comments above were based on a misapprehension. My understanding was as I said - that these mods would make the 675's competitive. If that's not the case then I humbly retract my comments above.

I would also add that this changes my view of the riders over the weekend and my hearty congratulations go to you and Phil for what in reality were fantastic rides. And a standout effort from Andrew Johnson on a 583.

:lol::lol::lol:


Right. *rolls up sleeves*.... where do you want me to start????

I will happily pay for ANY 620 to be dyno'd with ANY 675 carbed bike on the same dyno, but you'll have to promise to re-imburse me if there isn't at least 7bhp difference. That's a modest 13% difference.

To give you an idea that has the equivalent effect on power/weight as removing 22kg from the bike!

********. Try 51.5, 59 and 62.
but three different dynos delivered bhp figures within 0.5 bhp for three 675 bikes? "Very misleading"????

Couldn't disagree more. Sort it out now or you'll have an entire field of 675ie checkbook racers.

No we don't.


Andrew produced the ride of the weekend as far as I was concerned. I hardly think this thread has anything to do with rider ability. I'm sure CK & AK are biting their tongues on the whole BB issue. Where would Andrew have ranked with a 680ie???

I had an enormous amount of fun on the weekend, I have huge appreciation for the race committee, but that needs to be reciprocated back to those that have invested a huge portion of their savings/loans/time on getting on to the grid.

Cheers,

ali

Excellent post Ali..........

Phil

i still dont understand .

everyone had the opportunity to buy whatever eligible bike they wanted for the series.

whats the issue? :puzzled:

I have to agree with most of what Michael has said(there has to be a first time for everything mate :lol: ) Both Neil and John Hackett, engine builders who KNOW about Ducati's have stated that a big bored 583 when set up properly with short manifolds and flat slides will MORE than live with a 620. In fact John's reasoning behind his initial development of a the '620' big bore kit was because he felt the 675's would have an advantage! Having watched all of the racing at the weekend I have to say that Geof Spencer was VERY smooth and fast everywhere I could see him, noticeably faster than most into and over the mountain-which is just race and track experience. Don't forget that Dave Riley riding a standard-eg not specially dynoed and set up-620 monster with only 1 disk- was leading race 2 for the first 2 laps-and he is a novice rider, and Andrew Johnson finished 5th on a 583!

John

[Edited on 3-5-2005 by Monty]

Is it just me or does it seem to be just the people who have 620's or the rule setters who seem to be in denial about the 620's advantage?

I'm sorry Monty, but I think you've spent too long hanging around in the rarified atmosphere surrounding top engine builders like Neil Spalding and John Hackett.

I'm sure that it is possible to build a flat slide carbed 674 cc bike that is quicker than a 620. If you happen to have the budget and the renowned engine building skills of Mr Hackett or Mr Spalding to do it.

By the time you've done that it's going to cost you more money than it would've done to buy a 620 in the first place.

Meanwhile, back in the real world, guys who thought that the series was started as the antidote to 'cheque book racing' are spending untold hours in unheated lockups with a few spanners and a socket set doing everything themselves. The knowledge that John Hackett or Neil Spalding could build them a race winning engine is about as relevant to guys on a budget as walking to the moon and back. Fine in theory but it's never gonna happen.

These are the guys that I believe the race series was conceived around and I think the rules have stitched them up. They've spent thousands only to find that they are outclassed by people with bigger pockets. You only had to look at the 3-4 lengths that the 620's were putting on 674's along the very short start finish straight after being neck and neck at Barn to see the advantage they've got. It's clear from the stands, never mind the view from the saddle. The difference on circuits with longer straights is going to be huge.

Here's a thought. Instead of trying to level the series (albeit too late) with talk of how the 583/674 people should spend another thousand or so to get flat slides and some serious engine building done, how about asking John Hackett and Neil Spalding to work out the size of inlet restrictor that would be needed to restrict 620's or 680's to 52 bhp.

Shouldn't be hard for top engine builders to work out and would cost the 620/680 boys about £20

i still dont understand .

everyone had the opportunity to buy whatever eligible bike they wanted for the series.

whats the issue?

I didn't

I couldn't afford a 620 but was told that a big-bored 600 would create equal power. Re-reading Neil Spalding's Rules Guide on his website also suggests this too, taking it one step further by saying that changing the manifolds and carbs would *increase* the power over a 620 - not make it level.

Based on this, I did the sums and still couldn't afford a 620, but could afford the 600 with the big-bore.

At least Jools is seeing the bigger picture too.

"""I have to agree with most of what Michael has said(there has to be a first time for everything mate :lol: ) Both Neil and John Hackett, engine builders who KNOW about Ducati's have stated that a big bored 583 when set up properly with short manifolds and flat slides will MORE than live with a 620. In fact John's reasoning behind his initial development of a the '620' big bore kit was because he felt the 675's would have an advantage! Having watched all of the racing at the weekend I have to say that Geof Spencer was VERY smooth and fast everywhere I could see him, noticeably faster than most into and over the mountain-which is just race and track experience. Don't forget that Dave Riley riding a standard-eg not specially dynoed and set up-620 monster with only 1 disk- was leading race 2 for the first 2 laps-and he is a novice rider, and Andrew Johnson finished 5th on a 583!

John"""""



U can hardly call dave Riley a novice Monty or Andrew johnson...

Im sure i have the wrong perspective on this monty but you always fall on the side of the JHP Simga " known " riders side.?!?!?!........there should be no sides in this..

The issue is not about the standard 620 its about the BIG BORED 620 that we all voted against....

im so tired of all this bullsh*it and for me and others its detracting from what was gonna be a top series.........

Phil

[Edited on 3-5-2005 by fil2]

everyone had the opportunity to buy whatever eligible bike they could afford for the series.

When I investigated it to see if I could even afford to go racing at all (I obviously couldn't) you could pick up a carbed 600 for £1000 if you got lucky on eBay (more typically £1500). The cheapest 620 I saw (being a much newer model) was in the £3500 region.

£2000 cheaper! so in theory I could get a 583 and have £2000 for race preparation for the same price as the cheapest unprepared 620, after all, the rules are set up to provide a level playing field.

What part of "some people can't afford a 620" don't you understand?

What part of

sorry i dont.

if people are that bothered about winning trophies rather than having fun then they should have got a better bike to start with. i dont know much about bike tuning but it seems fairly obvious to me that if you want to get the best performance you start at the highest level possiible ie a 620.

to use cash as an excuse is i think poor.

if anyone wanted to borrow a grand to get a better bike it would cost them 20 odd quid a month. big deal. one and a bit less beers a week.

I SAY AGAIN


Wouldn't this be the most cost effective way to level the playing field? It would cost the carburetted people nothing...zip...nada and an intake restrictor would cost relative peanuts to fit to injection bikes, be they 620's or 680's. That way, this whole thing is settled for minimum cost and maximum fairness. Which in spite of people believing that I'm a DesmoDue hater is all I've ever wanted to see....a truly level playing field.

and before anyone jumps in.

no i dont have loads of cash, yes i have got in debt big time because of this racing. but im happy with the decision i made.
i wont win on ANY bike but i will have fun on what i have.

that is my main aim, others may be different.

but jools, how level do you want to make it?

what about people who have bought ohlins? get them to sling them in the bin?

i saw a few with steering dampers? take them off then?

some went to almeria with the CSS i couldn't afford it. will someone give me the cash to go and do it before next season.

i really do think it is about as level as you can get when you try to encompass 3 different models of bike over 13 years of production.

I do agree with you Dickie, but I won't say why because I won't be able to clearly explain my feelings...:lol:

effing hell its gone nuts in here ....

Sorry Dickie, if I just wanted to have fun on a race track I would stick to track days.

The only reason to take it a stage further and start racing is to be competitive. Why else would anybody buy a second bike and spend thousands on it? Just for fun?

i just think everyone is getting all het up over very little.

this series is in its first year and has just had its first meeting,
as said on another post, the MT, the riders, and the club as a whole has done a superb job in getting this going.

at the weekend it was the best supported series, with the closest racing, with the best spectators. entries ranging from quite literally converted road bikes to specially prepped race bikes. it was a HUGE success. lets not lose our perspective here.

come the end of the season there may need to be some changes, fine lets look at them and discuss them then. but lets not spoil what, after just one meeting has been one hell of an addition to the club racing scene.

everyone inthe club should be immensely proud.

[ [/quote]

Wouldn't this be the most cost effective way to level the playing field? It would cost the carburetted people nothing...zip...nada and an intake restrictor would cost relative peanuts to fit to injection bikes, be they 620's or 680's. That way, this whole thing is settled for minimum cost and maximum fairness. Which in spite of people believing that I'm a DesmoDue hater is all I've ever wanted to see....a truly level playing field. [/quote]

I seem to remember saying somthing similar to that quite a few months ago. No big bore kits for either bike, no carb mods, just blueprinting, cans, brakes and rearsets etc then make the 620's either carry a weight penalty or fit restrictors.
If i was going racing i would want a chance to win, if i just wanted to have fun then i would spend all that money on loads of trackdays and get loads more tracktime.
Like Jools i looked at the costs and after i realised how much a 620 would cost i gave up the idea. Yes 600's are cheap but whats the point under the current rules?

Blimey !!!!

Good debate, my view is that there realistically was always going to be 2 classes of bike at the DD races, those with 583/674s and those with 620s.

The difference is about as minimal as it could reasonably be, its just that with the reality of a big-bore 620 offering, there may in fact now be 3 classes.

So my view is;

- do away with the big-bore 620 option
- acccept that there is a difference between the 583s and 620s
- choose your weapon based upon finances and objectives
- lets go race!!!

FWIW - I paid £2500 for my 620 and all in all have kept the costs below £4K (so far).

Not the cheapest or the most expensive bike out there I realise, but a great way to start racing.

Tim

True. I had a fantastic time spectating and walking around the paddock chatting to as many riders as I could. I didn't get to speak to you all, but you are all heros in my book. I was nervous as hell just watching the preparation.

It was nice to spend some time doing what I could for Phil and Ali as well. I wasn't 'official' pit crew, but I helped replace some clip-ons and bashed some rearsets straight, made me feel involved somehow. Had a blast watching the racing and a fantastic blast home.