Hello - and clutch question
 

Hello. I bought a 2001 996 bp back in February and I've been lurking on your site for a couple of months now. Y'all seem to have the best info and livliest discussions, so figured I'd sign up. Hope you don't mind another Yank crashing the party. Actually, being from Texas, I'm not likely to claim most of the Yanks either. :D

My first question - how do you recommend cleaning the clutch plates? I've done a couple of searches and read quite a few threads about the various clutch issues. My clutch is EXTREMELY grabby and produces a pronounced stumble/shudder no matter how careful I am with the clutch lever. I'm concerned that it's more serious than just dust, but I want to start with just giving the insides a good inspection and cleaning. Is it just a matter of opening it all up and blowing out the dust? Or can you go further with somehow actually cleaning the clutch plates? Anything else to do or check while I'm in there? Bike has 7300 miles and seems to have been babied by the one previous owner. Stock clutch cover up till now, but a vented billet one is on the way from Casoli. Doesn't slip in the least, but has serious, almost dangerous, lack of smoothness from a stop. THANKS!

Sounds a bit like mine was, more like an ON/OFF switch than a clutch sometimes - probably best just getting a new set of plates maybe ? made a huge difference to mine as they were pretty much worn out.

I have noticed Duc clutches dont seem that smooth or progressive compared to cable ones on Jap bikes, so it does take a bit of getting used to.

Worth the effort though, new clutch plates and an uprated slave cylinder and the bike is transformed for town riding.

Hi Nathan and welcome - I'm sure some of the experts will be along soon to give full info on clutch overhauls, but you should also check the clutch basket slots for notches worn by the plates, which will cause grabbing.

Does it squeal as well? You could check the wear on the plates and give them a rub down with emory paper.

There is a slight groan as it engages. Not a high pitched squeal, but rather a low pitched moan as the bike shudders into motion.

I had the clutch slave cylinder replaced with a new Ducati piece during the 6000 mile service. I know the shop owner and he said that mine had never been replaced and since there was a service bulletin on that part, he could replace it for no charge even though mine didn't specifically show signs of leaking. Don't know if the new clutch slave unit is re-designed/better than the old one, or simply a new one, but my bike had the problem to some extent both before and after that trip to the shop.

Round about that time Ducati changed the slave cylinder to the larger "cotton bobbin" shape. The first of the new shape were subject to a recall to drill a release hole, otherwise if the seal failed, they could "hydraulic lock". I expect this is what your dealer is talking about.

Desn't sound like that's your problem, though. Like Brent says, I'd take the plates out and examine the outer drum for notching. If it's not too bad you can squeeze a bit more life out of it by carefully dressing the notches smooth with a file. Don't go mad, though.
And removing built-up dust in the clutch doesn't hurt, either.

Clean out the dust and give the metal plates a good seeing to with wet and dry and chances are you'll be good to go.

Darren

only other thing it could be is the outer basket which may have ridges in it.
sounds like it needs a strip down, good clean and maybe take some pics for us to further examine

Nathan, you're describing the same symptoms I had last summer... very grabby on the take-off but no sign of slipping once engaged, and a deep 'groan' type noise when engaging.

Turned out that both the plate tangs and the outer basket were grooved to buggery. Material on the plates still had plenty of life, and there was no issue with dust build-up cos I've got a very vented cover. New plates and outer basket (48t STM) and all is fine and dandy again.

Wip the cover off and have a nose down the contact points of plates/basket and you should see if it's notching, but the heaviest wear was on the bottom of the stack so the true extent couldn't be seen without taking the plates out.

n

FOLLOWUP
 

So, I took the clutch apart this weekend. Many thanks to my friend Uwe for welding up the hub holding tool and giving a hand. Definitely need new plates. The tangs are pretty banged up and the friction material is almost gone on some plates. I would think a new basket is in order as well. But, you guys have seen a lot more of these than I have. So, take a look at the pics and tell me what you think. New basket?





I mentioned the possibility of going to an ST4S clutch (as I have read about here) to a friend with an ST4. He thought that was funny as all the ST4S guys he knows have gone to aftermarket. He said one of the most highly rated ones on the ST board is by Pro Cutting, or is often called "Charlie's Clutch".

Info here: http://sky.prohosting.com/ssnyder/product4.htm

I couldn't care less about quiet, but I would like long lasting and the less it's rattling around in there, the less damage it's doing. So, anyone familiar with this option?

I personally would run that basket for one more set of plates ......

Others would disagree .... but I've seen far worse ......

Nice pictures Nathan and welcome to the club, Hows the toxic texan doing these days!:lol::lol::lol:

plates are f'd
the basket will last a bit longer

id clean that up and put it all back in
mine was like that first time i checked it
to be honest mine was worse, got another 7K out of it!!

The basket looks just like mine did about 10,000 miles ago. I'd carry on using it for at least another set of plates. The thing with the ST4S clutch is that the plates are aluminium and they wont make the basket any worse and they are a load quieter.

My wife has probably used the word toxic about me after a late night of too much beer and mexican food. But don't know how you would have a way of knowing that. So then rcgbob44, I must ask, who is the Toxic Texan? I know you're not bashing on Colin Edwards, 'cuz them thar's fightin' words!

:P

As you've already got the clutch off the bike then you might as well spend £250 for a new basket and plates. The next thing you will notice with a worn clutch like this is clutch slip when powering hard.

Worn clutches like this are very common if the members here are anything to go by. I think everyone must have replaced a clutch by now :D The life span does vary from as little as 4000 miles to 14000 miles but just don't expect much life from even a new one. Hmmm - I feel a poll coming on.

clutch plates
 

A couple of tips I have recentlydiscovered,

1)Sintered steel backed drive plates produce lots of expensive dust,(wearout quickly),can be grabby ,do benefit from cleaning ,do mess the bike up if you use open clutch cover;-also narrow steel drive tangs ,if you alow bike to idle(disconnect sidestand switch) rapidly wear and damage the basket.
2)the late model alloy-backed wide tang plates,wear out quickly,are softer in take up (more feel) suffer less abuse,are quieter during idle have relatively less flywheel inertia,have wider drivetangs and consequently less loading pressure on the tangs because they have more drive area.Still hopeless!
3)The best affordable solution is a set of japanese wet clutch plates in a ducati dry clutch;-these plates have alloy backing have lasted well , have wide tangs so last well in the softer alloy clutch baskets without causing excessive wear inthe basket, produce little dust,after run-in find nuetral easier than any ducati clutch I have used!,have plenty of feel, cost relatively buggerall!,have japanese quality ,and have outlasted any ducati clutch I have ever had need no cleaning,seem to be self cleaning! The only thing I have noticed is although the fit perfectly on all the drive tangs the section of plate between the dive tangs does not contact the clutch basket, you might think they then would not self center but if you consider the geometry of the drive tangs I can see how they do have to self center ,I believe this anomally may explain why they dont need cleaning the dust has an easier path to freedom,
4)use a short-throw, low lever pressure, master cylinder with these plates and you have a very controlable clutch;--because it takes more lever movement to effect the same amount of plate movement it enhances clutch feel. (in other words the clutch engagement occurs over a larger lever movement,which is the opposite of a grabby clutch where the clutch engagement occurs over a very limited range of lever movement and you are not able to modulate clutch release and it appears like a switch)When I first tried these plates, I immediately noticed the bike was much easier to take off on ;- because I progressively slipped the clutch it had the same feel as a lower gearing!! before anybody says they wouldnt be caught dead with jap plates in their ducati,Or this all sounds like bu------t just consider if any of it makes sense?
Finally I have contributed to a few technical discussions and nobody is even interested to comment ,maybe you guys dont look at your bikes too mechanically?I would like some feedback and the opportunity to talk to anybody interested in ducatis ,so if you are interested to drop me a line I will tell you where to get the best ducati road clutch from,which japbike that is, ha!, ha!
I have tested these clutches in my 996r/998r motors and will only use sintered plates for track days,infact these cluches may well stand some extreme abuse! dont know yet, the clutch has 7000kms sofar I havent looked at it yet!!!!!
note clutch shim packs are available from motowheels or ducati kamna;--one of them? alot of ducati clutches are prematurily destroyed because the pressure-plate bottoms on the clutch hub;-as this starts to happen it reduces the clamping pressure supplied by the springs,-this allows the clutch to slip,and the plates are then rapidly stripped,soon as the clutch starts to slip wack a spacer shim in and instead of needing a new clutch it is sometimes possible to get more miles out of it,another thing is the first clutch plates in the drum seem to wear the greatest so at clutch mid life take the entire pack out and reassemble the pack reversed back into the drum ,this prolongs the life of the clutch because as you allow plates to become stripped the total torque capacity of the clutch reduces as the coefficient of friction changes,(because the plates have lost their friction material);-as soon as the clutch slips and turns hp into lots of heat the clutch is gone;-hope some of this helps BREAKOUT

quote]Originally posted by mikecardiff
Sounds a bit like mine was, more like an ON/OFF switch than a clutch sometimes - probably best just getting a new set of plates maybe ? made a huge difference to mine as they were pretty much worn out.

I have noticed Duc clutches dont seem that smooth or progressive compared to cable ones on Jap bikes, so it does take a bit of getting used to.

Worth the effort though, new clutch plates and an uprated slave cylinder and the bike is transformed for town riding. [/quote]

clutch
 

dont idle the engine ,start bike,wait for the oil to get to the cams then ride it,engine will warm up quicker than it will idling it;- so will spend less time at its cold dimensions so less wear will occur on startup ,less clutch wear will also occur ,because alot of this happens to people who idle their engines in neutral,your clutch basket is unsightly but I have seen many much worse and the clutches still work fine!you must be very careful if you attempt tofile the serrations off because if you dont do it accurately enough so that all drivelugs are equally loaded the plates may well be stressed out of flat, this will make it lesslikely you will be able to find neutral,also increasing the tang clearence just increases the wear rate and makes the clutch noiser,If you buy a clutch basket in alloy get a hard anodised one brown or green/olive I dont believe that It will make much difference ( a few microns of anodising ) but wide tang alloy plates will last longer and are alot quieter,breakout

48th
 

It is possible to buy 48 tooth clutch baskets which have 4x the number of drive surfaces and definitely are quieter and last longer,they use stm style plates which I dont know the cost of .these baskets use all the other standard parts of the clutch. breakout

Just bought a 48 tooth EVF clutch for mine as last one went on Silverstone track day and John Baines (always good to know he's round the corner when up at Silverstone) reckons they're the business and did me a deal. That was for my Bostrom. My Senna on the other hand sounds just like your clutch with a dreadful groan and horrible grabby take off, and frankly always has, so I'll get the plates changed and see how it goes.........

Tell me more!.Which jap bike plates fit - model,year etc.Where do get yours from?How much?.

OK, a couple more questions (sorry). The Barnett clutch packs that I seem to find just about everywhere use aluminum backed friction plates. The Barnett website clearly says for use with aluminum or steel baskets, so one would think it would be OK. But, I was thinking that mixing aluminum and steel would be a no-no. Wouldn't the softer aluminum tangs get banged to ***** that much faster against the harder steel basket? Does anyone have personal experience using aluminum plates with the stock steel basket and how was the longevity? I would just use the factory steel clutch pack, but it's $50 more expensive and less immediately available, not to mention of questionable durability.

Lastly, since I don't have a service manual, can someone list (or link to) the torque specs for the basket mounting bolts, the hub nut, and the pressure plate/spring keepers? TIA.

Mine had a grabby cluch and made a groaning noise after fresh motor was fitted.

I found one of the metal plates was rusty and was up against a clean plate.
I moved them around so the friction plates were upagainst the shinny surface on the other plates. Job done all quite and it's not grabing any more.


P.s Who did shoot J.R :lol::lol::lol::bouncy::bouncy::bouncy:

I would change the basket, it looks worn. New plates, check the slave cylinder for weepage. If cylinder is ok refresh with new fluid and take it from there. I assume Texas is hot, it could be worth investigating in silicone fluid instead of DOT4(hydraulic fluid).

Mine was beyond grabby. We're talking major shuddering because the clutch was virtually a light switch. All on or all off with the engagement point not always the same. I assume it's because the banged up plates would stick and catch rather than smoothly disengaging. Defintely need new plates. My slave cylinder, as well as fluid I would assume, was changed at the 6000 mile service (under warranty) even though there were no signs of leakage.

Texas is hot compared to the UK, but nothing that warrants any unusual fluid choices under normal use conditions. It's not Phoenix or Las Vegas. The JR comment cracks me up. I work for a Swedish company and am the only natural-born American citizen in a company full of mostly Swedes and Brits. People come over from the home office all the time and ask about Southfork Ranch and JR. People here hardly even remember the show. It was such an over-stylized, over-stereotyped Hollywood version of reality, that no one here paid it any more attention than any other soap opera. Don't get me wrong, it was popular at the time (what, 1982?). But apparently it aired in Europe well after it did here. And of course no one here bought it as an accurate depiction of anything. For some reason, all my German and Swedish acquaintances still watch reruns and expect everyone to own a horse and an oil well. Sigh. Dallas is like any other modern metropolis. The metro area has a population of about 4 million. It has trendy artsy districts, slums, typical middle class suburbs, golf courses, shopping malls, and TONS of corporate national headquarters, including one of the largest concentrations of telecommunications (that's me) and technology companies. Not too many horses and virtually no oil wells around. :)

plates
 

The alloy plates are alot lighter===They have a lower flywheel moment of inertia. The damage problem occurs because the clutch doesnt spin at a constant angular velocity; every time one of those big pistons is on the expansion stroke the crank and clutch are subject to angular acceleration ;when on the exhaust and intake strokes the crank/clutch begin to slow down again.It is this speeding up and slowing down that causes the rattle, because the clutch basket tansfers this motion to the clutch pack and because the clutch pack is loose in the basket it does this by tapping it,( the rattling noise)
It then follows if the drive plates are lighter (alloy) then it takes less tapping energy (hammering)to speed them up and slow them down ,so less destruction (damage) results.
The plates are a consumable, your clutch basket should not be, for road work use my --------i clutch plates,save the basket ,take off easier , never have to clean the clutch, enjoy riding the bike more! breakout

Really? Damn stereotypes.

I did ride a kangaroo to school and have a pet koala though.

I'm currently whoring myself (sorry, providing consultative services) to a major oil company that has a very large office in Houston.

:D

nathan>


I've got one of those 48 tooth STM clutches.

Their plates are steel and their basket is alloy. I was a bit surprised by this, but there you are. There's much less movement, I would suspect, between plates and basket, so the wear should not be so bad.
Not had it in long enough to make any judgements about longevity.

Sure is quieter, though!