Police Victimisation
 

Last night my son, who is 17 and had a licence for 6 months, was on his way home when he was stopped by the police for no apparent reason. He had just left a filling station and on rounding the bend 100 yds up the road he spotted 2 police bikes a couple of hundred yds ahead. He checked his speed on the digital speedo which I fitted and since it read 28mph he thought no worries and continued on. Needless to say the cops flagged him down, claimed he was doing at least 40 and asked to see his documents which of course like everyone else he doesn't carry around with him. They then told him he was being charged with careless driving and gave him a producer for his documents.
My son was in tears when he got home. These pigs are stitching him up for no good reason other than the fact that he is a youngster on a bike.
Now I know that my son is paranoid about speeding in built up areas and didn't trust the speedo on the VFR which is why he got the digi speedo and I beleive him when he says he was only doing 28mph but it's his word against 2 cops so I don't see what he can do. No doubt they will claim that they are "experts" at judging the speed of vehicles and in their opinion he was exceeding the speed limit. However at 9.50 pm it was dusk and accident investigation research has shown that judging the speed of an oncoming motorcycle is very difficult. Any ideas how I can help him with this?

I really thought that this sort of harrassment was a thing of the past and from bike cops - even worse.
I had previously been thinking of doing a Bikesafe course - stuff that now. All coppers are barstewards right enough :flame:

sounds rough mate. Has he been charged with DD or just given a producer? As a 'fully fledged' adult sometimes its tough to know exactly wots going on when ur stopped, a teenager will know even less. Any photo/radar evidence?

No not all coppers but if you are unlucky enough to bump in to the wrong ones you are Fu**ed.

You can’t beat a bent copper which is a real shame IMHO Coz if anyone deserves a good beating it them.

Good luck to your Son. Go to court and get him to tell them what he’s told you.


Sometimes you can get lucky and end up with someone sensible at the hearing.
:barfy:

I'd say unless they have any radar evidence etc how can anyone know what speed someone was doing? estimating something doesn't cut it IMO.

Unfortunately it's going to cost you or him money either way now I guess, either by paying the fine etc or getting a good solicitor to got to court and contest the issue in hand.

It is easy for parents to believe their kids especially in these kinds of cases. But we were all kids onece and I am sure we have all played a few games with the truth when dealing with parents. Part of growing up I guess. No comment on the above situation as it is probably as first told by the son, but before we all go ranting about crooked cops out to do in a youngster for no apparent reason, maybe we should remember out youth as well. i got in a street fight with a big bloke who came out of nowhere and started pounding on my parked car and friends. He broke both my side windows and was going after my young buddy before I wrestled with him in the middle of a busy intersection....17 years old...His father came over and listened to my recounting of the affair and he was in tears at the end....he had never seen that side of his son.
Remember when you all got a new bike or car at that age. The temptation to show off was pretty hard to shrug off.
Again, I do not doubt the story, but a word with the cops may be in order as well..

This is not the kind of thing you expect to hear these days is it? That must be the total of the county's bike cops out in one place too - probably needed to justify their existence and your lad was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Unfortunately, police officers are considered to be "expert witnesses" and so are can determine that he was doing 40 in a 30 limit. The fact that there was 2 of them means it will be harder to argue. I do not know whether their "expertise" stretches to an oncoming motorcycle in dodgy light - lets face it most car drivers struggle to even SEE the motorcycle let alone know how fast it is going or register that it is moving at all.

Do I sound cynical? Sorry ... and apologies to the fine up standing law enforcement officers who I know are members of the club, and who I have a lot of respect for. There are always exceptions to the rule and hopefully these 2 are the exceptions NOT the rule!

Good luck to you and your lad Derek, please tell us how it goes.

Thanks for the kind words guys. As I said the only evidence is their "expert opinion". In Scotland there has to be corroborative evidence but since there were 2 of them, one backs up the opinion of the other and that's all that's required. My son came back very upset and totally confused about what had been said to him so I guess we will have to wait and see what happens.
Despite the "expertness" of the cops if it comes to it I am willing to take them on in court and imply that they might be mistaken in the poor light at the time. I'd also like to get a hold of some of the research on motorcycle visibilty to back this up. Any doubt that can be cast on their evidence can only be to the good. My wife happens to work for a firm of solicitors which might be to our advantage.

The only thing I'd comment on at the moment, being able to see this from both sides, so to speak, is to ask how you checked the accuracy of the new speedo when you fitted it?
If it was accurate then, is it still now???
You need to be on solid ground that what your lad says he saw on the display was actually the speed that the bike was doing.
Before you go forward, I'd ensure that you're happy that your lad was looking at an accurate indicated speed first...if not & it was out as a mate found when he compared his GPS to his digital bike speedo on a streetfighter he'd built ( 26% under reading in his case indicating 37 at a true 50mph, even though it was fitted as per the instructions! ) you may be heading for a bit of an egg in face type scenario.

It was an eye opening revelation to me to find out our police are so overtly corrupt when I moved back to the area I grew up in.I'm not talking about seedy back handers from locals crims but (in one case ) multiple rape and the blind eye turned by that plods colleagues,routine lying in court where being 'economical with the truth' is the norm,a general arrogance and racism and sense of talking down to any non police,not just my observation but from freinds who work for other police areas and a couple of soliciters.
My advice would be to get very proactive about this derek,if your wife is in the legal proffesion find out about the charges brought by these two...or I bet it'll be one of them more than the other,and find out if they're a bit quick off the mark in any charges too,write to their boss claiming harrassment and false charges and let them know you wont back down,as thats what most bullies count on,these guys are in a position of authourity and they cant be allowed to abuse it.Though expect them to close ranks big style.
Also inform the local press,and let the chief constable(find out his name) know you'll be talking to your MSP about it.
All guns blazing Derek.

This from a normal citizen never been in trouble in my life,and with apologies to the individuals whom I know are policemen here.Dont trust any of them they are subject to the same avaricious gudges as anyone else,training my arse!
:flame:

so not a fan then !

If they do not have a radar reading then take it to court. A surprising number do not stand up in court where evidence must be produced.
My mate (an IAM rider incidentaly) was recently prosecuted for speeding on the evidence of a guy in a panda driving the opposite way who thought he 'must' have been speeding as it took 2 miles to catch up.
It did not stand up to scrutiny in court. I would get a good soliciter and fight it.
I have first hand experience of good and bad policemen so I know both types are out there.

Rushjob,

I have no doubt that the speedo reading was pretty close. I had a similar one on my SS and it was very accurate indeed. However I would not quote that as evidence unless I was very sure of it. My son has been riding for nearly 2 years and he is smart enoough to know the difference between 30 and 40+ mph. He spotted the police as soon as he rounded the corner and checked his speed immediately to make sure he wasn't going too fast. He may be young but he's not daft!

Not a fan of my local force Dickie,and my best pals a policeman too.
Shame really as i know they mostly have a tough job,but strathclydes pr is so poor that its very much created a them and us situation with pretty much the whole public.You get the police you deserve they say.
Im for reforming the whole lot of them.

So where did I insinuate he was daft?
I gave you a hint as to how to be CERTAIN that you were on solid ground.
To be sure of your position, you need to know how accurate / inaccurate it was, not a feeling.
I'll keep my thoughts to myself in future.
Good luck.

Andy, folk get upset and angry when they feel they have been not been treated fairly. Your thoughts are valuable, especially considering the circumstances, so please don't keep them to yourself. I am sure it was not meant as a personal attack.

Why wasn't he charged for speeding? something odd there.

i'd contest it

Try this.

Speeding coppers let off 59 times. :mad::mad::mad:

http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/pri...629848,00.html

Derek - stay level headed and composed mate.
Get as much evidence as possible re road conditions.
If possible get a light meter and measure the ambient light in all areas of the road - where the coppers were stood, where the bike was pulled, where the bend is etcetera for the same times as your lad was pulled.
did the coppers have there helmets on and visors down?
Get a weather description if possible for the night it happened.
Get measurements.
It all helps to show you've built the most complete picture as to conditions of visibility and if prove the coppers were in error.
Best of luck.

[jokingly]And if all else fails, can't you just say the lad was familiarising himself with the digital speedo?[/jokingly]

ps, I'm sure there was a safety campaign some time ago which stated the estimation of speed of a bike with it's lights on was most often incorrect.

[Edited on 27-5-2005 by guest1]

Derek, quick search revealed:
research
item B.2.f re estimation of speed.
(not with the lights on though but it does refer to Hills measurements?)


[Edited on 27-5-2005 by guest1]

I don't know whether age has anything to do with it (although it's difficult to tell how old somebody is when they've got a lid on), but my son got pulled over when he was driving his mum's Smart car through Milton Keynes.

He got a producer and a real dressing down from a very snotty and sarcastic PC (his mum was in the passenger seat at the time). He wasn't speeding or anything. His crime? Well, despite it being a clear sunny day, my wifes's Smart is equipped with a 'light pack' (didn't really want it, it just came with the car they had in stock). The 'light pack' makes the Smart think it's a Volvo and switches the dipped beam on as soon as you start driving. Apparently, one of the headlamp bulbs was out - funnily enough it was OK when they got home.

jools - wasnt wearing a hoody was he??

Rushjob,

In defence of Derek here (and I don't know him at all) I think that you and I have read completely different replies from the man.

I read a reply that outlined where his confidence in the digital speedo came from with a tongue in cheek remark at the end about his son. Which I read more as being a way of injecting something a little lighthearted into proceeding than a dig at you, although I appreciate the response was aimed at you.

I think if you re-read it you may see where I am coming from.

You are a highly respected member of the club and at time have given invaluable advice to people as a result of your occupation.

Please do not mistakenly read a single post and change that, as thats what I believe you may have done.

Apologies if this seems like a lecture but we need all the strong memberes we can get.

Derek,

Best of luck mate.

Rushjob,

Sorry If you feel offended. I didn't mean to imply that you said he was daft. I mean't only to imply that he has some degree of common sense and that upon seeing the police he made sure that he wasn't speeding. Thanks for your input and please don't feel that you should keep your thoughts to yourself - I'd rather hear them.

Thanks Alan. Thats the sort of thing I'm looking for.

If he got a Producer, it will have a collar number on it. Why not speak to that Officer to find out, a) what he says happened, and b) what that Officer is going to do about what?

Was your son interviewed? was he cautioned? was he offered the opportunity for legal advise? was he reported? Was he NIp'd? Did he sign anything? If he was charged, wheres his copy of the charge? What did he do that was careless in the couple of hundred yards after rounding the bend to the officers? What evidence do they have of the speed?

[Edited on 27-5-2005 by andyb]

[Edited on 27-5-2005 by andyb]

Nah...Didn't want to brag, but since he's just doing his finals after 4 years at Brasenose College, Oxford he's not really the hoody type. Thankfully, he's not a speccy swot or a hooray either. Just a normal looking and pretty mature 22 year old.

I know it may not help, but, I was stopped for speeding mid 2004. Forgetting the actual speeding part for a moment, the officer that stopped me entered a statement in to court that said he had shown me the speed reading on the police pilot, that he had cautioned me and that he advised me that I would be prosecuted.

He did non of these but his signed statement says he did :mad:

My solicitor pointed out that for the court to side with me would be admitting they thought the officer was lying and there was little to no chance of that.

From my experience if the police want to stretch the truth to suit them there is very little you will be able to do.

All that said, to give a balanced argument, this is the first time in 20 years of driving / riding that I have experienced this type of behavior from the police.

Hope it all works out for your son.

Not wishing to condone thew police in this particular incedent however i do dissagree with the above comment.

Having flown into stansted airport at 11.00 oclock at night, hired a car for the trip up to lincolnshire, and traveling between the A1 and lincoln was caught behind a stupid driver in a white van who at my every attempt to overtake would pull slowly over to the right causing me to brake and drop back, going through the small village of Ruskington i took my chance on a small stright part of the road to overtake, not noticing that a car in front of the van that had just pulled out of a side street was a police car, on go the blues and i dully pull over, knowing full well one, i had been speeding , and two i had overtaken on a solid white line.

I pulled up behind the police car and got out ready to face the inevitable however after explaing the situation to the officer to my supprise he suggested that i continue my jorney at a more sedate speed and wished me good night.

2 miles further on at a particular sharp left hander i saw the tail lights of the van i had passed which had continued ahead after i was stopped, however they were 5 foot higher in the air than they should have been and not moving ? as i drew closer i could see he had continued in a straight line and now had his bonnet burried in the ditch with his back wheels a good 4 foot off the ground, fortunatly as the police car was not 100 meters behind me help was at hand for the unfortunate driver and after stoping and waiting for the police car to catch up the officer simply waved me on my way while he no doubt took charge of the situation.

Ok a long winded post i know, but i just wanted to make a point that not everyone should be tared with the same brush, there is too much of that going on and not just with the police, as bike riders we suffer from attitudes that go back to the 60s of mod and rockers, we live with the stigma from thouse days that all who ride bikes are mindless law breaking hooligans, so we have enough to contend with as it is, without making similar comments towards the police.

Bionicle, well said.

My first post mentioned talking to the police involved. I really doubt that most police in the UK are ditwads or worse as most of them are probably good family folks looking to do a good job like most of us. In my life in the US and abroad I have run into about 1 really nutso officer and I have had a number of occasions to meet officers in the US, Europe, Asia and Russia. UK police were more than friendly at times and seemed pretty professional, US cops have been generally understanding of a situation, letting me off with a warning more times than not. In this particular case a lot of people suggest all kinds of actions such as checking ambient light, looking at sites regarding estimated speeds, etc., but wouldn't it be better to ask the cops what this is all about before jumping into all that. As I said before, we are probably all teenagers at heart (red blooded ones at that) and can probably remember when our hormones got the best of us. The sone involved is probably not too genetically removed from any of us so perhaps approaching the other party may be of value.
Finally, my approach to such situations is honesty. I don't try to wiggle out of the charge, but do try to let the guy know that I was aware of and in control of the situation. Got tagged for doing 122 kmh on an expressway (patrol car reading) but when they started to write the ticket out I laughed at that figure and told them I was doing well over 122 (probably 165). They had 122 on the meter because 130 is automatic license suspension. ANyway, they laughed at my honesty and just gave me a warning. There is a human side to most cops as well. Let us know how it turns out!

I spoke to Niall (my son) over the weekend, now that he has calmed down and is a bit more approachable. He is still absolutely adamant that he was riding at under 30mph. He saw the police immediately upon rounding the bend and continued on at that speed. They flagged him down and said he was doing "nearly 40 mph". Niall wasn't quite clear about what they said next but they asked him about documents and he said he didn't have a V5 (it didn't occur to him to tell him that he'd only had the bike just over a week and he hadn't got it back from DVLA). They then cautioned him, charged him with careless driving, telling him that a report would be issued to the Procurator Fiscal who may decide to carry out proceedings against him, and issued him with a producer for his documents. He was not given a charge sheet. However this is in Scotland and may not be a legal requirement. I still have no idea who the officers were nor what their grounds are for careless driving. Speaking to them may not be a good idea anyway as it might possibly be conceived as "attempting to pervert the course of justice".
As I see it, unless the police have concocted a load of lies, the Procurator Fiscal should just throw this out. "Nearly 40mph" hardly constitutes careless driving! I will let you know any future developments.

yep, that does not sound like any kind of glaring dangerous riding to me. Hope this works out for Niall. Cops may have seen something they didn't like in his driving and may have been mistaken. Maybe they were concerned about safety issues in the area. Hard to tell.

I think we're missing the point here- in the original post, it says that the m/c cops guessed he was speeding BUT are doing him for careless driving. That is NOT speeding. & they dont need a radar to observe careless driving. Is it possible he might have done something else to get pulled?

Where I'm based, we prefer to see a moving traffic offence before we pull someone over- we dont simply stop for the sake of it. We cannot do someone for speeding unless we have an approved speed measuring device fitted (i.e: traffic cars)

Hmmmm. 17 year old, new bikie, interesting corner. Very possible.....Haven't we all been there before.
Nice to have a coppers point of view on the matter though.

"all coppers are bastids"


hate it when people say that......maybe people should live in avon&somerset....police are much nicer here.

To some people they are until they are needed. Most that I have known or have become acquainted with (through not fault of my own, of course) have been regular guys doing what seems to be an important job. A few are bastids, but I've only met a couple like that (even in the wilds of Texas and New Mexico {speed trap heaven})
Does the UK have access to the long running TV program COPS (bad boy, whatya gonna do). People in the UK are lucky in not having to deal with the large population of low lifes that US cops have to.

you've never been to Dewsbury then?:D

Yep, haven't had the pleasure. Then again, you may not have been to Clovis New Mexico...:lol:

Derek,
Don't know if you've seen it, but have a look at www.pepipoo.com It's a website about speeding offences and the police.
You may get some useful information from them, or at least it could point you in the right direction.
Regards, Gary.