Poor handling?
 

This is probably going to appear an unusual thread but I do not seem to be able to make my bike corner anything like I would have expected a bike equipped with Ohlins and the like to do.

The bike has got new tyres and I have made sure that the suspension is all back to factory settings but it just lacks any feel and appears to take a huge amount of effort to go around anything other than fairly relaxed curves. Roundabouts are a complete nightmare and the fast and sweepys almost life threatening.

The bike was recently serviced and there was no suggestion that there were any problems so am coming to the conclusion that the problem is me.

Prior to the 748R I had GSXR's and the only problems I had were definate pilot error, and typically where as a result of too much entry speed and too little forward observation ( :o )

At the weekend I road tested a new GSXR750 (which is an absolute corker of a bike) and it handled like a dream. After having gotten used to the road I felt that I was slicing through bends and around islands just like days of old. I then followed the same route on the Ducati and found that I was nowhere near as quick or as comfortable and the islands took twice the effort for half the outcome. Whilst the Suzuki outperformed the Ducati in terms of handling, I decided that I would prefer to try and ride the 748, rather than buy what is a fantastic but rather emotionless bike.

I have since booked the California Superbike School in an attempt to work through this problem and hope that this will help, but my questions are: -

Has anyone else experienced this problem?

Is there a trick to riding Ducatis quickly around corners that I have not picked figured out?

Any help greatly appreciated as this is really ruining what has always been my dream bike.

Thanks

Is there a trick? I don't think so, it sounds to me like you just need to get your suspension setup for you.

Plenty of people do it - I used HM racing initially. My monster, which handles better than my 996 at the moment, was setup by Sigma Performance. I can't fault it.

Definitely sort that out!

Cheers TP,

Was half expecting someone to tell me to get out more!!! :lol:

Forgive my ignorance, but is it simply a matter of turning up somewhere and them setting it for your height, weight etc?

If so, where are Sigma and what sort of money does this typically cost?


.

Steering Damper ???

Is it free to move ? is it sticking ? if you have an adjustable one is it on the wrong setting ?

748's in general and R's in particular come with a justifiable reputation as one of the sweetest handling bikes anywhere. Certainly the ones I've ridden have been fantastic.

They're not going to steer as quick as a Gixer no matter how you set them up, but they should pay you back with rock solid stability once in the bend.

I guess it's difficult to tell what you consider to be a huge amount of effort because that's a personal thing. Maybe trying another 748 would tell you if there is an issue with yours.

I had a ride on a mates 748 SPS and it was a right barge. It didnt want to go round any kind of corner. The thing i found with my bike is that the suspension adjustment actually do something and on the bigger Ducatis you have front compression, rebound and preload, rear compression, rebound and preload and also ride height and maybe steering head angle. Add in tyre pressures, tyre profiles and riding style as well as the weight of the rider then you have several million possible combinations of settings, only a few of which will give you the ride you are looking for.

Nigel,

Wasn't sure about the steering damper as turning the knob didn't appear to make much difference!

Opted for counting the clicks left to right and settling for the middle, not the most scientific plan but as the manual didn't suggest which way to make if stiffer (?) and I couldn't feel the difference (!) this was my only choice.

Does however seem to move freely, the head doesn't shake unless given the 'berries over poor surfaces and the damper isn't leaking.

Will however knock it all the way back to one end then the other and see if there is any difference in the feel - would be wonderful if it was this simple!

Thanks

Sigma are in Tunbridge Wells, Kent. I have no idea what Neil would charge for a suspension setup because I had it all done as part of other work. His work is undeniably quality.

You could have a hunt around his website here and give him a ring maybe?

HM racing is here and they have pricing on their website depending on what you are trying to achieve.

Have you set the ride height? My adjuster was wound right in until recently increased it by about 5mm, increasing the ride height by about 20mm. I nearly crashed at the first roundbout when the bike turned a tad quicker than expected.

As TP suggests probably best to get the pro's to look at, I'm trying to get mine into HM racing but they're a bit busy, something to do with TT or something.

[Edited on 31-5-2005 by 748mart]

One easy free thing you can try - reset all the suspension settings to the stock ones you'll find in the handbook - mine are set to this on my 748 and it handles fine - better than any of the recent jap bikes I've had a go on.

If you get everything back to where it should be, see if it feels better, if it doesnt, then maybe think about getting someone who knows their stuff to set it up.

Also check the rear shock is working properly - if its knackered this can effect the handling of the whole bike. Likewise, head bearings, wheel bearings etc...

Its quite possible a previous owner messed around with them without knowing what they were doing, and has cocked them up somewhere along the way, or they were a very different weight than you and had them specifically set up for themself.

I have a 02 748R and it handles really well, but Iam still having the suspension set up by Steve Jordan in Bookam just to see if it makes any difference (this sat.) I will let you know yhe outcome. :)

My 996 is at factory settings and I found (after having a Blade) that it turned in much quicker and I'm a pretty big bloke so I would assume that it is something more than simple suspension setup I am afraid. I would do as someone else said and try and get a go on another 748 to compare before I start mucking about with suspension. At least then you will know.

Paul

Here's a thread with a link for setting up the steering damper

http://www.ducatisportingclub.com/xm...6983#pid151708

Did the previous owner mess about with the steering head angle as well as the suspension?

Thank for all the comments.

From what I can gather, the previous owner had played with the suspension a bit, which I found out when putting it back to the factory settings.

The steering head angle is still in the more relaxed position (apparently the steering lock doesn't line up when at the more extreme angle(?)) although I have considered adjusting it to see wht happens.

The strange thing is that riding this bike on the same roads I road the GSXR on gives two entirely different experiences - one of smooth, tight cornering and the other of 50 pence piece style (the Duke being the latter).

I will see if I can get a go on a friends 748BP, and get him to ride mine. You never know, it might be the bike not me (:D)

Thanks again for all the comments and GAZ748 do let me know whether your suspension set-up makes any difference :roll:

I think that can be arranged!

sounds like there are plenty of variables.

Linked to a previous thread, perhaps BSD in Peterborough do set ups for ducatis?

Perhaps I should just buy the GSXR...:puzzled:

You will never get the 748 to steer like a gixxer mate, they are chalk and cheese. You have to use good old muscle to ride a duke fast, I'm sure most will agree but we've all got used to it now so don't realise we're doing it! The trade off though is a rock solid surefootedness in faster bends that the gixxers simply don't have.

That said, you can improve things dramatically turn in wise by getting the chassis set up to suit. I wouldn't recommend doing this yourself if you don't know how but go see a specialist. Don't know where you live but Baines are a good bet, as is Sigma and maybe AJR.
The difference a good set up makes cannot be overstated, and the beauty of the R is that the suspension adjustment actually works (unlike gixxers)
Failing that, if you live anywhere near one of us on the board we may be able to help :eureka:

I see a problem here...

If you jump on another 748 not an R it won't have Ohlins, different tyres maybe thus different profiles, it should certainly feel different but whether that should be used as a benchmark is pushing it giving the variables between the two.

I had my 916 setup by Wilf at Moto Rapido - it is now utterly fantastic on track - turns in super fast, holds a line like it's on rails and I can alter a line mid-corner with ease. The downside is that on bumpy roads it is harsh, but the damping could probably be eased off to compensate for this.
Basically get it setup to suit you - you won't be sorry - they are beautiful handling bikes!

I think one other main difference is that the Duc is essentially a race bike, not a road bike, whereas most jap bikes are set up to be easier to ride on the road.

All the Hondas and Suzukis I have had are much easier to ride on the road, and require less effort, but they do start feeling a bit loose and edgy when pushed in situations where the Duc wouldnt.

The Jap bikes do seem to have been built as much more of a compromise, which is fine if you want an easier ride, but then I dont think many of us buy a Duc thinking we're going to get an easy time of it - I would say the Duc is more of a 'riders bike' - certainly less forgiving than the GSXR, but worth the effort once you get more used to it.

Try these from Section8 Superbikes Tech pages. Getting the rear ride height right makes a huge difference to the way a 748/916 turns

http://www.section8superbike.com/748...suspension.htm

http://www.section8superbike.com/suspensionsetup.htm

Thanks for all the info.

One thing that has become apparent is that even though I've reset my suspension to standard, the front struts do not have the inserts poking through at the same height as the picture in skidlids following attachement.

Where the strut ends in a red collar, there is a further insert poking through by about 20mm by the looks of things.

If I remember correctly, these are only out as far as the base of the milled section below the blue collar, and do not show any of the rings that can be seen in this photo (fig 1).

I am I missing something really obvious here?

[Edited on 1-6-2005 by L3OONY]

[Edited on 1-6-2005 by L3OONY]

Yep, that shows that you have the preload maxed out, ie. fully as hard as it will go. Not good.
You need to set it up so that the static sag is correct, I think about 10mm but I am sure someone will clarify. Having it so stiff will push up the front end (relative to the rear) and cause slower steering and weight transfer to the rear. Like I said, not good.
The way to set it is this:
Get a mate round, a strong one or even better, two.
Put bike on rear stand.
Get mates to lift front end clear of the floor and measure the extension of your forks ( the distance of the shiny part that is showing)
Put bike back on floor and re measure.
The difference between the two is your static sag.
I cant remember exactly but I think around 20mm is good.
You adjust the distance by altering the pre load on top of the forks (that's the big nut on the top)
If the sag is too much wind it in (stiffen) If it's too little wind it out (soften)
This will give you a good starting point.

You can do the same with the rear shock but instead of measuring the shock itself, you measure from the rear wheel nut to a point on the seat unit. You need around 10mm on the rear. Just put a pen mark on it or something like that.

If you do that and get your ride height sorted you should notice a difference.
Phew, my hands ache now! ;)

[Edited on 1-6-2005 by desmojen]

Yep, that's what it should be like. I reckon it'll put all the weight transfer onto the rear shock too, making it sit down too much. Low rear, high front, naff steering.

You say you've put the bike back to standard suspension settings, but if the preload is so far out you clearly haven't. I'd check everything again if I were you - preload, compression, rebound, drop through the yokes and steering head angle for the front forks. Rear end is preload, compression, rebound and ride height.

L3oony it looks like your bike isn't set up very well, Unless you are very heavy those pre-load adjusters should not be wound right in as all they really are is front ride height adjusters, once the fork springs are tempered there is nothing you can do about the spring rate, if you can't get the correct amount of sag for your body weight then the springs should be changed.
I take it this is partly how the bike came to you and may say something about the previous owner. Personally I would sort out the front and rear ride heights to get the weight bias right.
Which area are you in as there should be somebody near by in the club that could help, if you say Oxfordshire then arrange for me to check it out.
Along with my 916 and 998 Hybrid I also have a GSXR600K2 and a R6 so I know how they compare, yes the 600s turn with less effort but thy don't turn that much quicker.

Thanks

I'm in Cambridge.

When I was setting the clicky bits back to factory setting (they were massively out) I did wonder about this bit but it didn't make a lot of it in the manual, only about turning the top with a screw driver (which I did).

Looks like I've managed to miss a fairly fundamental part of the suspension setting here!

Is it simply a matter of putting a spanner on the top and turning it or there more to the adjstment than that?

Also see Harv748 advert for rear ride height tools, as I previously mentioned this setting makes a huge difference to how your bike turns, not everybody runs the same setting I run 242mm and always set my bike to that.
At the price he is asking it could be a good investment if you are going to have the bike a while and end up playing with final drive gearing

It's not so far from Cambridge to Oxford Loony, I'd strongly suggest a visit to uncle Skids to get it sorted.
Take some choccy biccies with you as a bribe! ;)

Then this weekend you will find me mainly tinkering with my suspension.

A massive, huge thanks to everyone who has offered help and/or advice, I really was getting to the point of no return.

I will post back on here once I've had a play, and hopefully you'll spot me easily - I'll have the bloody great big grin!!!

[If this doesn't work, you'll then find me somewhere on the road to Oxford. You'll spot me as I'll be laden down with biccies and unable to corner particularly fast!]

Thanks again



:sing::sing::sing::sing::sing::sing::sing::sing::s ing::sing::sing::sing:
:bouncy::bouncy::bouncy::bouncy::bouncy::bouncy::b ouncy::bouncy:

[Edited on 1-6-2005 by L3OONY]

Sorry, just had another thought...

If the suspension is so far off factory, in all likelihood the rear is going to be all messed up too.

Is there an idiots guide to checking the rear, and adjusting it if necessary?

I had a gsxr 6 before my 916/996 and have to say the duke is so stable it's like its on rails.

I run showa front forks with ohlins on the rear I have gone one click softer than standard on the front, and one off on the compresion on the rear.

Rear tyre is down sized to a 180 to get rid of the understeer.

You do have to put a bit more effort into the bars but the results are well worth it :cool:

Cheers AGE

At the moment I am putting in so much effort that I'm in danger of messing my leathers... :lol:

Weeksy, thanks for the advice - is it too obvious that I know nothing about the dark art of suspension:puzzled:

Interesting thread. Sounds like your front end is miles out; hope you get it sorted. Ducatis are criticised for a lot of things, but bad handling isn't one of them!


But no mention of this on another thread where you're talking about hammering a 748R round the Nurmbergring (sp?).


Is this the same bike?

Not me I'm afraid, or at least I don't remember typing it... :puzzled:

Have never really felt comfortable with the front end so if this sorts it (fingers crossed) I really will be a happy bunny!

Have just come back from the 'ring but was so unhappy with the handling (and the coaches and double deckers) that I didn't bother going on.

Planning another trip (hopefully) in September time so if I get it sorted I'll try my luck then! :burn:

Just done Nurburg on my 748R and the only thing that caused problems was the tank bag pushing me into the wind blast, limiting me to about 120. My knees go a bit stiff on long runs but other than that the Duke is as comfy as anything else I've ridden. About 1,100 miles in all, from home there, and back.

Just has a full service at Riverside Ducati in Northampton (they have been mentioned somewhere in an earlier thread) which was about £450 I think, so not too bad considering.

Don't be put of by fears of it being difficult to ride or too powerful - this can be said for any bike if ridden with a quick wrist!

The only thing I need to do now is learn to ride the tw@t!



[Edited on 1-6-2005 by L3OONY]



So those speeds weren't on a "private road" at all, then?! :lol:



[Edited on 3-6-2005 by moto748]

Oh yes, now I remember...

:eureka:

Right, latest update: -

Firstlly have found that the top of my struts look different to any other photo I've seen as the inner section remains flush with the outer section regardless of setting.

If we assume that there are 16 turns from hard to soft, the left strut was approx 11 off hard and the right 15.

To get the sag to 30mm I have gone to 5 off hard.

Also confused about the strut height through the stock.
I am sure that I've read that it should be FOUR rings when viewed from the inside of the strut, however mine are at THREE.

Is anyone out there using Ohlins, and if so what are yours set at?

Will check the rear ride height tomorrow (thanks Mike) and see where that is.

Ta

[Edited on 4-6-2005 by L3OONY]

Right, as I don't appear to be able to post any pictures I'm going to have to describe it.

The cente of the strut has a blue cap in it, totally different to the photo I showed previously (the photo was from a suspension set up site).

The blue cap incorporates a nut and in the cente of the nut small (3mm ?) allen key head that operates on a ratchet.

On the outer of the strut top, almost like an aluminiun ring (surrounding the blue cap) is a silver cap with a number of holes drilled in it. It has a mark at 12 o'clock and then arrows indicating Soft to the left and hard to the right.

No matter how much I turn these nuts the cap remains flush.

Is this making any sense? :puzzled::puzzled::puzzled:

[Edited on 4-6-2005 by L3OONY]

Thats because the ohlins forks have a threaded internal preload adjuster, the nut on top engages with it, turning the nut clockwise screws the preload adjuster downwards inside the fork and vice-versa

http://www.ohlins.com/pdf/07282-04.pdf shows the two different set ups that Ohlins use

Phew! There was me beginning to think that I'd got moody forks!

Even went on the Ohlins site but my PC at home takes sooooo long I lost the will to live and went to watch Dr. Who!

Thanks a million (again!), I'll have a read of this and see what I can do with it.

:P