Government and pay as you drive
 

Does the government not look at the implications of trying to get this working?

If all of the expensive/most common roads are getting a hefty toll then all that is going to happen is that all that traffic will be forced onto less costly roads

The cost to implement this will undoubtedly be passed onto us not only on a per mile basis, but for the hardware and investment in the first place, then implementing getting the money from us, what happens if we don't pay? more cost to recover this I am guessing?

But the other affects could be to businesses, imagine going to a meeting, or having to work in an office several hundred miles away for the day, so 400 mile round trip @ £1.30 per motorway mile, so that could be a maximum of £520 for a day, that would I assume be paid for by the company... what happens if you're self employed?

What's going to happen to all of the haulage/courier companies? Can you imagine the cost increases? what happens if you hire a van/car? How does the company you hired it from charge per mile? What happens if you've got a bike in the back of a van? would you get charged twice?

Plus there would be the whole big brother side to this, speeding would be a thing of the past as ever vehicle would be tracked, and the government could go as far as to assume in most cases that car A, reg xxxxxxx is registered to Mr X so they could know pretty much where you are 24/7

Obviously if and when this would be introduced there would be a number of companies who can disable this tracking for a considerable fee I'm sure.

Wouldn't it just be better to scrap road tax and add more duty to fuel? the more you use the more you pay, simple solution you pay as and when you need it, although this doesn't directly reduce congestion on certain roads, just makes it more expensive across the board

Sounds like a much more sensible idea, and easier to enforce. It also encourages people to be more fuel-efficient, whereas simply charging by the mile fails to discourage people from driving big gas-guzzling cars/trucks.

For my own part, it would pretty much mean me looking for a new job - I do a 90 mile drive Monday morning/Friday afternoon - M1/M25/M3, which if they ended up being £1.30 per mile adds up to £230 per week.... The removal of fuel duty and car tax would save me something like £20-£25 per week.... £200 per week out of pocket, £10k per year, and I'm sure I'm not the only one... the flexible workforce won't be so flexible under this system :mad:

It's going to take a good 10 years I guess to implement anyway, but not a great prospect.

I'd of expected more comments though

they sure do come up with some 'kin stupid ideas! :mad:

Why doesn't the government have the courage to simplify the tax system, apply an appropriate level of income tax to cover national expenditure, and abandon the multitude of indirect taxes (taxes which tend to penalise the poorer sections of society more than the middle/upper income bands)?

I work for the feckers, and I do 400+ miles...... My expense claim will be hefty!! It's bad enough now, let alone adding another quid thirty!

Muppets!

Why don't they just encourage freight on to rail like the rest of europe, tax HGV's heavily to keep them off the road, keep HGV's in the inside lane and use education campaigns to improve driving on motorways. That would decrease M way congestion.

Follow that up with a transport policy which made safe cycle routes into cities and towns, decreased the number of car parking places, use congestion charging like London does to improve city centres.

don't forget that everthing you buy has to be transported, even stuff that goes on trains will normally have some time on a HGV. If transport costs rise then so does the cost of the end product. Also this tax would not apply to foriegn trucks, making it even harder for British companies.

Some top points there JPM, agree with all of them.

I would like to know if there would be differing tariff's for different vehicles, i.e. bikes at half price for example? You can tell they just haven't thought the whole thing through, but when has that stopped a government doing what the hell it likes?

I wonder how much of our money was invested into coming up with such a stupid idea?

Shifting tax from a vehicle licence (road tax) onto petrol only penalises those who use petrol lawnmowers, chainsaws, race bikes, generators and lots of other petrol driven machine which don't actually take up space on the road.

Personally I'd be a lot better off if we switched to pay-per-mile, but I know that a lot of other people - self employed particularly - would really suffer and either be forced out of work or put up their prices. So in the long run you'd end up paying for it all anyway.

One can only assume that, as with the congestion charge, MPs would be exempt...

So we introduce a system where foreign trucks need a special test and licence to run on UK roads but at a price. This would have 2 benefits, protect our haulage and get rid of unsafe foreign trucks and drivers who don't understand our roads or language.

All goods would end up on smaller vans doing shorter runs, picked up from local marshalling yards, its how the rest of europe does it, check out those long trains you see heading to the south of france or germany from the ports with containers on, how many lorries does each account for and how much congestion does it safe?

We'd lose out on some of the overnight delivery stuff but reduction in HGV's on road would more than make up for that.

oh, one small problem, it relies upon an efficient rail network which the rest of Europe has but we got rid of

Listened to the Transport Secretary justifiying himself on the Today program a couple of mornings ago. He let out that a similar scheme for HGV's was imminent, as they were seen to be a major cause of congestion.

Also, he stated that the £1.30 charge would be for heavily congested roads e.g. central london and that a typical motorway mile would be sub 10p. ( although in 10 years time £1.30's probably going to buy the same as 10p today).

It's a bad idea, but bring it on why, because it's really easy to defeat in it's planned form. GPS Signals are notoriously susceptible to blocking, and so the thinnest of lead sheets would make you "disappear" or stop travelling. Gyro technology and direct integration with speed sensors etc would allow for some dead reckoning, but isn't 100% accurate, and you can't bill someone because you think they may have used the road.

Then there's the issue of map data and its accuracy. TomTom use TeleAtlas maps, which are probably the most up to date of the lot, and have just release version 5, which still has roads missing from it after 5 years. It's only in the last 6 months the TeleAtlas and NavData maps have included the M6 toll road. So, until maps can be 100% accurate, they can't use them for charging.

Distribution of equipment is another issue, force manufacturers to fit the kit? Retro fit kits for older vehicles. It'll have a standard interface, and when it's released, within 6 months it'll be hacked, guaranteed

How will you be charged? Weekly, monthly, annually? Will the box attempt to upload the data on your journey in real time or at regular intervals? How will it do this? Cellular network? Another way to spoof or block transmissions, easy to upload false data using a clean clone of your actual box.

Don't even get me started on Civil liberties.

Keep the current tax system, it provides a mechanism to indicate that the vehicle has been insured and MOT'd, or transfer it to a US type system where you pay tax for your number plates (tags)

Obviously, the good ideas club have got together again to justify themselves.

You could also bear in mind hw much this would cost to implement, removing the cost of the black box ( £100ish?) think of the backend infrastructure required to track, in real time, the tens of millions of vehicles in the UK, and the resource required to generate those bills on a monthly basis.

Want to reduce congestion, get companies to review their attitudes towards flexible and remote working, stop parents driving their kids to a school less than 2 miles away. Oh, and invest the revenue taken in road tax and fuel duty and re-invest it in the transport system instead of Quango's. IIRC it's less than 10% that's returned to the roads...

HGV tax is pretty heffty as it is.

cost

and is it really a way of getting vehicles of the road, or just raising more revenue?

I think it would also be a hit in the pocket for us 'hobbyists' who are going racing etc - can you imagine the costs of going to Cadwell etc.

Also, think of the extra costs when going to visit granny/go on hols etc in the UK

JPM:I agree with your 'tax at the pumps'

the problem with taxing fuel is that it hits the rural economy hardest. My GF travels 25 miles to work each day on a road without traffic, its the nearest large town to where we live so she's got no options if she wants to do the job she studied for. She does her best to save costs with a small diesel engine and she doesn't cause congestion as theres no traffic on the road yet she'd suffer if you increase duty on fuel. The purpose of the proposal is to remove congestion so charges would be higher on busy routes at different times of day, fuel tax doesn't allow for this.

The easiest system is more toll roads, different charges for different vehicles, time of day and distance travelled. the problem can be that traffic then looks for a cheaper route so the A roads get crowded, so you need implement it on A roads at same time hence the chip in car solution proposed.

I agree with all JPM's points on the problems that'll come with it :(

Your all missing one vital point: Alistair Darling is a complete Ar*ehole. he has no idea whatsoever regarding traffic and the roads and along with that criminal Ken Livingstone has done his utmost to copulate the road systems.

Livingstone alters the roads to cuase conjestion then charges people for using the roads in an attempt to make us believe he`s working hard to reduce congestion.

I have seen so many roads where I live that have been reduced to one lane in each direction when thay used to be two lanes in each direction. We`ve seen the phasing of traffic lights altered to cause conjestion, we`ve seen roads narrowed to cause conjestion then by passes built to relieve the created conjestion, who`se getting all the back handers?

Don`t make any mistake about Mr Alistair (anal) Darling, he`s not interested in traffic flow, only how to make money out of road users.

There, i`ve said my bit!

Well they would be scrapping road tax so depending on how many miles an individual does on a tolled road, you could end up better off... imagine someone who's got say a caterham, probably does a 1000 miles a year, but still has to tax it for 12 months, or sorn it etc, for someone like that it would be beneficial I guess if the tax was just on fuel.

There are pros and cons to every argument here, the government want to reduce congestion by pricing people and businesses out of the market, rathr than address problems such as public transport etc

JPM

Do you really beleive thay will scrap raod tax and duty on fuel, time to wake up!

In most european country`s they open up the roads to let the traffic flow easily and hence reduce congestion

I say bring it on. Not cos I want it, but simply because there could then be a mass "no drive" day whereby there would be no fees generated as oppose to the current system where everyone is taxed every twelve months irrespective of road usage.

It seems to be that we are all falling for the old Maggie Thatcher trick whereby they hit us with a major kick in the goolies, then give us just a little bit back to make us feel as though we've achieved something.
Anyone remember the council tax disputes - mine was due to rise from £100 a year to £900 a year. then they capitulated to bring it down to £400 a year - and I felt happy:lol: How dumb was that?

See here

Here's a thought - dont do anything at all !

Let the roads continue to clog up until by natural churn people start to use alternative forms of transport.

What I mean is, we make a decision to use the car because we tolerate the 'congestion' on our journey... however, there will come a point where individually, or corporately, we decide we cant tolerate it any longer and either go via some other means or not at all. Over time, traffic will find a natural level and adjust itself accordingly.

Simple rule of supply and demand.

I don't think there is an easy solution to congestion, not one that everyone will be happy with.
The bottom line is far more of us live further away from our work than we did 30 or 40 years ago. The days of a job for life, where you could reasonably live in the same town, are gone. There are no jobs local to home for me, so I have to travel to work, but there isn't the security when I get there to persuade me to relocate, so I travel and help cause the congestion.
I seem to recall the government wants a 'modern, flexible workforce', but they don't want it on the roads. If and when congestion gets so bad that I really can't do the journey anymore, then I'll reconsider my living/working arrangements, so in a way, congestion should be kind of self-regulating.

This is Labour we are talking about here right?

The kings of "spin" ?

Cant you see what this is?

Its an extreme Idea, that wont come to pass, Its extreme enough to get us all talking and worrying.

Its to make a policy that they will introduce seem like the better option and less harsh, where as if they introduced it, without out all this "spin" it would seem really bad.

Does that make any sense?

I dont know what the real thing will be, But I do feel this is being done to soften the blow.


Its abit like a Doctor saying "you have HIV" and then coming back an hour later and saying" Actually, its only Herpes" :smug:

[Edited on 9-6-2005 by Bubbles]

disinformation?

You could summarise the UK government with:

Never have so few done so little for so many. Yet spend obscene amounts of money to provide no benefit.

Cost vs. benefit analysis are not something this government is familiar with, it seems. There is absolutely no proof that a) this system will ever work, b) the true costs can be even estimated, c) it will make any difference whatsoever!

Another great idea of this government is the ID card. Just another brain-dead idea that will cost huge amounts of money and probably make things worse.

Time to make plans to move elsewhere...

Or just take to the streets, Time we had another poll tax esq riot I think.

Just like the Gatso backlash thats coming,they will be pulled down soon, alot of states in the US have banned their use, as the cause more accidents then they prevent, panic braking etc.

Its just another "fantastic" idea fron the Idiots in power to get more money from us, whever it works or not.:mad::mad::mad:

How long are the people of this country going to tolerate these ****ers?

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

They just got voted back in so it looks like we are lumbered for at least another four years, just enough time for another few thousand half baked policies.

Is it possible to declare you own house an independant state and install yourself as its president?!

Whole countries got away with it a while ago?

Any revolutionaries on here got any advice?

Ray

My thinking on a simplistic basis:

The population is not increasing.

Car (vehicle) ownership per capita is at or near its eventual limit (in terms of numbers on the road at any given moment).

Therefore design & construct a road network with adequate capacity: Once implemented, it simply(!) needs to be maintained........

Hmmmm - service industry vehicle doing 30 000m per year. I can see the cost of having your alarm maintained (required by a lot of insurance companies these days) jumping from around 70 quid to over 100. What's that going to be in 10 years time??

Well, you voted them back in!

Wasn't there a precedence for this set in Canada during world war 2, where the princess of an occupied country bailed out to canada, and for her to be declared sovereign they had to "make" the local area officially another country?
Historians on board?


knew I'd read it somewhere:

So there you go, declare the garage a sovereign state of Italy and don't forget to take your passport with you.:lol:

[Edited on 9-6-2005 by guest1]

I dont know why they are targetting this. If its a money issue i suggest it could be sourced in better ways like making all the bludgers pay their way. I thought the pol tax was a good idea....accounting for everyone to contribute!

Give em all an id card so we know whos who, that would allow for all the wanted people who owe the state millions, to be rounded up and asset stripped!

All I can say is you should all have voted against labour, I would have thought that by now most people would have realised they are a lying, cheating bunch of ****s! :devil::devil::devil::devil:

Paul

Not guilty - I didn't vote for them:frog: