Trackdays and Trackday training, like the CSS. Do they make us too fast for the road?
 

Do they make you too fast for the road?

Lets face it, most motorists have never done any training since their original test, years ago.

Here we are (motorcyclists) we love our sportsbikes, our racing and want to constantly improve our skills and technique.

So we book Trackdays, training etc, our reactions get better, our awarness and alertness is hightend and skill level goes up, as we learn to control our machines at a higher level.

Then we take our skills to a place where we are surrounded by people , who have no skill.
People who`s skill`s have dropped since their original test (all those years ago) who have never done any advanced training and yet, we a judged and measured with them.

Personally, I think the roads are getting more and more dangerous and it has nothing to do with excessive speed.

So the question is, are we just to fast for the roads? as the average standards of road users skills are so low?

[Edited on 13-6-2005 by Bubbles]

not done any training, other than following guys in rideouts and a bit of experential stuff, but agree with your sentiment.

Its not just the drivers, its the state of the roads too - out yesterday with some peeps and I was bouncing all over the place it was so bumpy and then theres the potholes, worn edges of roads, gravel and muck.....

Not sure if training leads to less or more danger, ie do you go faster coz you can or slow and steady coz you can read the signs??

Personally, I think I would go faster, so no training for me!! I will carry on waddling around the roads being a danger with everyone else....

Not done any schools or anything, but having raced, I find that when I ride on the road now - I don't really enjoy it.

I jump when stuff comes around the corner at me :o and can't believe I used to ride so fast on the road.

The road is scary place - Give me a track any day!!

i couldn't get any faster, i am already a legend .. but I go anyway just to challenge Andy Ibbots abilities .....

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Opposite I think. As Dom says, go racing or any track based activity and you go as fast as you can, in a controlled environment, you try doing that on the roads: Beep, beep - game over.

As soon as I started competing, I realised I had nothing to prove at the traffic lights any more. Now I keep all (well most - honest officer) the agression for the track.

Good, advanced rider taing makes it a lot safer on the road though.....

Lights blue touch paper and runs for coat:frog::frog:

Sounds like a logical statement
As for the CSS (not that I have done one of there schools) but do they not concentrate on things like throttle control and observation. Very useful tools no matter where you ride your bike.
Personally I still love road riding, although watching some other riders and numerous car drivers does give me the shivers.

There is just one thing that makes a bike "too fast for the road" twisting the throttle too far round!

CSS training or call it what you will has an element of observation, looking ahead, where you are going that is just as usefull on the road as it is on track IMHO.

The vast majority of non two wheeled road users don't have to worry too much about their Skills or lack of them. The vehicle they are travelling in is festooned with safety features that bail 'em out when it all goes wrong. A motorcyle doeen't enjoy such a safety net.

The most valuable skill for a road motorcyclist is to avoid puitting yourself in situations where other road users can do you some damage. Some might say that means not riding on the road at all!. It's always a judgement call and anticipation is the name of the game. Advance riding seems to put a big emphasis on this?

Speed only makes the consequences of a mistake more severe.

Ray

Is it? I find I twist the throttle of my 600 monster far further than my sps but I ride faster on the sps??

I think the time for power limits is coming - we have to be protected from ourselves....:devil:

Since taking up track riding at the beginning of last year, I now find myself riding so slow on the road you'd thing I was taking my test!

I've considered giving up road riding and using the 996 purely for the track, but whilst I'm doing DD the road is almost the only chance I get to ride the real bike. When I stop racing (probably for financial reasons!) I foresee the 996 going on a sorn and spending all it's miles at trackdays.

All this because the road now holds much less fun than it used to when I rode like a nob!

I still enjoy road riding, and I, like some others have said seem to be a far slower road rider than I was before I went racing.
I do find, however, that I have so much more in reserve than before. I am far less fazed by a tightening bend, say, and tend to go into 'survival' mode much less often.
On that basis I think training and fast track riding can only be a good thing.
As long as the riders realise they cannot transfer all of it to the road that is...................:o:D

I think any training/practice on the track stands you in good stead for road riding. The more in control of my bike I feel, the less time I have to spend thinking about my riding and the more time I have available for watching out for what other road users are doing.

However, I am seriously considering Advanced Riding lessons after some comments AK made on Friday about a manoevre he saw me make that he considered highly dangerous. My perception of how safe I am on the road and the perception of others may not quite meet, it seems.

Anyone know of any Advanced Riding instructors in the Herts/Beds area?



:bouncy::bouncy:

Ruth - follow AK and see if you can comment on his riding, not a dig at anyone (just an example) but be careful of taking too much in on peoples comments, its like having your mother-in-law in the car and telling you how to drive!! What she considers safe (from the passenger seat) and what you do are different - plus there is often a fair distance between riders when out on a ride.

You are in control - when you are not in control is when you are dangerous and I think most of us spot that 'that was close' overtake etc pretty well ourselves.

when you follow advanced riders, it then shows what a good idea this is for the road, well worth doing I think but not sure how this would affect track riding as they are such different styles

Redruth......I am a RoSPA Gold certificate holder and observer for the organisation. I am based in Herts and would be happy to spend an hour or so with you if you think it might help. I don't want to hijack the thread so please feel free to email me if you would like to discuss.

Back on topic......I tend to agree that with all the advanced training and track based activity there is potential for speads to creep up. IMHO the secret of advanced road riding is to mix your increased machine control abilities with a healthy respect for the consequences if it all goes pear shaped, and adapt.

YES, YES and YES again! IMHO that is.

I finally gave up road riding last year after some 34 years and quite a few knocks. I found that the more track riding I did, the faster I travelled on the road simply becuase it felt well within my own limits and those of the bike. HOWEVER it took no account of other road users, the truly sh**ty state of the road surface, and the assorted c**p that truckies and farmers lay down just to catch us out.

I tired hard to slow things down a bit to take account of the above, but then found that I was quite simply bored, not to mention occasionally frightened by some of the antics of various other road users.

I had already stopped riding with various friends because I was pushing them well beyond their normal limits, and did not want to be responsible should they have an off chasing me. I gave up riding with another friend because he was always out to prove how fast he was off track and didn't want to be the one to peel him off the front of an artic.

So to sum up, track time has definately put a stop to my road riding simply because I felt I was too fast for the road.

Ruth - U2U on the way.


oh and Weeksy - quote ''although because you've been taught how to ride that much quicker, obviously your limits are increased, therefore so is your speed'' - I couldn't disagree more mate - road riding is about survival, hazzard awareness and defensive riding - get yourself some advanced lessons from a decent school - you'll be amazed what they can teach you. If all my racing, No Limits instructing, CBT instructing and 50 mile daily commute into central London has taught me anything, it's to go a lot SLOWER on the road.

WeeJohnyB

So the assumption is that taking training and therefore increasing our competence as riders increases our speed?

Not so sure about this.....Maybe for some, but I feel that training teaches us how to focus our attention on the things that matter, ignore the things that don't and be able to handle that information accordingly.

Track training, trackdays and racing teach us how the bike will behave at it (or our) limits, and shows us that 9/10 times it's us and our actions that's the limiting factor (Weeksy's the exception, cos he rides a Gixxer ;) and is therefore severely limited by the bike :frog: Gonna get my ass kicked at Brands now....)

Road training teaches us all about hazard perception and how to deal with these things, and place ourselves in situations as far from these as possible whilst still making progress safely.

At the end of the day it comes down to mental state, and how we choose to approach riding in each of these environments. The road is no place for flat out riding 100% of the time, and the tracks no place for taking the scenic route (except at Oulton). If we choose to take the skills we learn on the track and ride to our limits on the road, we will get hurt, and may take others with us, but, if we back off, and use all the extra attention we now have to focus on hazards, we become safer, smoother, and a lot more relaxed.

Do track training, combined with road training and I believe we'll become more rounded riders, Chris Walker still rides on the road, as does Rossi, if it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me.


I think I'll lay off the caffeine for a day or two.....

Now this is a teaser.

Iv been on or around bikes for thirty-five years and I am still here today.
A fact that I still struggle to believe. Pure unadulterated luck.
I can’t trust myself on the road, still find myself riding like a 42-year-old idiot so try to keep it on the track.
From the first time you get on a bike you are learning right from day one, right up till today but you’re never to well trained to slip up and have the big one.

Experience saves lives, if you get help from a more experienced rider, which instructors are, then it’s got to help.

Two close friends have just passed their tests and I have been out with them a few times but it scares the life out of me to be honest. I spend the whole time looking for them, worrying if there OK even when they go off home after the ride out. I just hope they’re as lucky as Iv been.

If you ride bikes you have decided to ignore the risks and enjoy the feeling only riding can deliver.

Not very constructive but I have lost friends with hardly any experience and friends with extraordinary talent to bikes, no rime no reason just wrong place at the wrong time or some weird fate thing, I don’t know.

NO I Do know, I believe it was bad luck.

When I was a kid, eight or nine I remember telling me mum that you were safer on a bike because you could fly threw the air and not end up in the wreckage of a car. Told you F***ing idiot.

I have got to the stage now were I only feel like I have ridden the bike if I go out on track but I love the Pub car park to much not to get on the road some times.
To fast for the road, if I’m honest YES complete tool.





;)

pretty much all bikes are way too quick for the road, training or not. unless you stick to the limits of course, but in reality who does. i think you have to be very careful how your persepcion changes if you do lots of trackdays or racing as you get very used to high speeds on track that are just way to fast for the roads.

Thats the point I was making, plus the fact that your reflexes speed up etc and being on the road with nothing more then "motoring retards" is quite risky.

I'm still relatively new to track riding, having started in September last year. I've done the CSS too and feel pretty comfortable riding to my limits on the track now, and pushing them to find more and go quicker but I've slowed down on the road tremendously.

I even considered selling my 996 but I know it's not really worth it, and I love it too much. I've started planning on treating it to a few things over winter and ... well that's another story.

But, I don't think that track days or CSS make you too fast for the road. It's had the opposite effect on me because you realise just how many things can go wrong when you ride like a **** on the road. If you ride quick on the road you take most things out of your control. With better observation skills, bike control etc you give yourself a better chance on the road but the faster you go the more you reduce that.

I've just had a read back of this and I do agree that your perception of safe speed in area's increases after training, as it will with experience but not as quickly. Especially on a very capable bike that you are in tune with. As with all things if you leave sufficient margin for error or the unexpected (within reason) then you still give yourself more control over your riding and chances of making it home.

Ultimately you control the throttle so you decide how fast you go anywhere - not any training. If you are going too fast then it's your fault, not your training's fault.

Take it easy on the roads ladies and gentleman.

Yes, track riding can lead to being faster on the road due to just being more comfortable with the bike at speed and braking, but probably for all of us who go on the track it just ends up making us slower on the roads.

If the need for speed is satiated on the track, road riding becomes more about the social/freedom/club/tyre-kicking aspects of riding than the 'pin it to the max' side of biking. I do much less road riding that I used to, and all it much slower than I used to, because I get out on the track occasionally.

What I get from road riding is that spontaneous 'get up on a sunny morning, nip to Box Hill for a coffee, back before the kids drive the wife mad' feeling that track riding just can't give you. And why I just cant bring myself to sorn the bike... :D

I think the most difficult thing to accept here is where your perceived ability is in relation to your actual ability.

The thing about going around a track is that every 58 secs or 1;38, your going around the same bend again in the same position on the tarmac at the same speed.

Road riding is a completely different game. The majority of mistakes made on the road can be directly related to taking on board information, or more to the point, the lack of it.

Anyone can open a throttle to 100mph+ on a straight bit of carriageway, its the linking up, or consistancy of being in the right gear at the right speed in the right position that'll get you everytime.