TT, leave it alone or time for the nanny state to act?
 

Every year some don't make it to the end of the TT fortnight, be it racer, marshal or spectator.

In two years time its the centenary for the TT. Is this a dinasaur that should be extinct or one of the last great road racing challenges left?

Can it be made safer?

Have you ever set foot on the island and experienced what some say is one of the must do trips for bikers?

Ray.

[Edited on 13-6-2005 by Ray]

I have only been to the TT once, back in 95 but what an awsome experience. It is the only event I can think of that allows you to get within inches of the action. It is the danger and excitement that brings racers and spectators to the island. The risks are known and people should be allowed to make their choice.

A couple of years ago 1 rider was killed in the Japanes Moto GP at Suzuka, we now do not have a Moto GP round at Suzuka.
A few months back a few people crashed at Mallory park BSB round. Everyone was up in arms about how can we keep racing there, the superbikes have outgrown the place etc.
Recently in AMA the superbikes didn't race at Daytona since the risk of tyres disintegrating was too high.
This week 3 riders and a marshall die at the TT but it was their choice to be there so it's ok.
Go figure.
I'm with Michael on this one and have been for years, it is unacceptable to me that this race continues, and riders continue to die.
Im all for choice and agree that more climbers die but taken in context, there are many more climbers are there not?
I didn't speak out on this post before out of respect for Gus Scott, who I had a very great deal of time and respect for.


I have copied this reply from it's original place. I for one find the TT in it's present form to be totally unacceptable. I also find the comments on knowing the risk etc. to be banal at best.
Every time any of us go out on our machines, road or track, there is an element of risk. We all know this and accept it. But, and it's a big but, can any of you honestly say that you accept that you may die? I don't think so, and I don't think TT riders do either.

Allways a difficult one this. I've never been to the TT as it's not really my thing and the 89 TT pretty much finished it for me, but I have been to the Manx GP a few times when a mate raced and I allways felt relieved when his races were over.
But I don't want to be telling others what they can and can't do - and we have to remember there are some who would like bikes banned completely.

Following on, if we drop the TT, then do we also drop Jurby, Ballabeg and the rest?
How about all of the Irish road races too?
I would never race myself, I personally think the risks involved are too great, but that's my personal view.
I don't impose it on others and respect their decision to do as they choose.
Having just been to the Island, albeit 2 weeks prior to the TT, I can tell you that there are a lot of folk over there who don't want to lose the races and I think they are perhaps in a better position to comment than some of us over here.

I have lots of mates that race in the TT and the MGP and they do it because they want to, it does worry me that internationals turn up for the TT without going to the Manx GP first, saying that the Manx is not what it was it has got to fast for a majority of the riders. Just looking at some of the lap times there are people out there lapping on the latest superbikes slower than Adrian did on my 400 last year. Maybe they should be restricted on the type of bike they ride until the achieve a certain level. The Manx Senior being restricted to 1000cc twins and 750-4s max was a good isea originally but now the latest GSXR750 is so fast just look how Davy Morgan got on last week on the same bike he won last years Manx Senior on.
I love going to the Island and the local Manx people that I know have grown up with the TT and Open speed limits in areas and they Love there road racing as do all the irish that attend.
I don't want it to be stopped as long as riders are still willing to go, most of them paying through the nose for th privalage, but some sensible precautions would not go a miss.
Machine capacity to suit skill levels, amount of races a rider can take part in during the race week, proper instruction on the course layout.
There are some good racers that turn up at the TT for their first Road Race and as such are novices and maybe they should be treated/looked after as such.

I'm for and against the TT, I've been once when I first got into biking, and I did think the experience was truly amazing and nothing can compare to it.

Half of me likes the way the TT has stuck to it's old traditions whether that be the times etc in chalk on a blackboard, the way the bikes are refueled etc, the marshalling and the inherent risk the roads bring. But we're talking traditions going back to when bikes were a hell of a lot slower even before the likes of Hailwood and Agostini.

We are in a nanny state yes, but having a machine with 200HP capable of 200mph through the streets without the kind of run offs etc, that would be a standard criteria in any other form of motorsport.

Keep the TT, keep the old school pits/leaderboard but throw some money at the island and make the lap safer by whatever means, airfences, run off's etc

amount of racing must have an impact - didnt really think about it biut last night watched some highlights and 6 laps, flat out 222 miles??

Desmo Due class for island Novices sounds about right to me.
400s are a good size but all are old bikes and mechanical failures may cause problems, even proddy 600s are as you say to quick these days.
Prody spec Mini Twins would suit a novice. Just suspension sorting, aeroquip hoses etc.

Unlike the Manx GP the TT does not have a newcomers race, but I'm not actually sure what that means at the Manx GP anymore other than you are new to the island, I don't think it places any restrictions on the riders or does it exclude them from the senior race. It was only a couple of years ago when the Manx GP newcomers was won with a time of around 118mph if I recall correctly

I haven't been to the TT yet but truly hope I get the opportunity before they stop it.
I think it is a riders choice to enter the TT its not part of a race series that would cost points if they were to miss it, and I am someone who excepts the possible consequences of riding powerful sports bikes fast.
when Men or Women push the boundaries accidents are inevitable.
that's the attraction of the TT for me the closeness the noise the smell, just the outright danger

Sorry, I disagree. (I would cos they were my comments) Everyone who races at this event is aware of the risks and they still continue to race, even when a tragedy has occured in the preceding race.

We all accept a degree of risk in what we do everyday, admittedly the TT is an extreme example. I for one would not like my choices to be made for me by the government. There are many who feel motorcycling should be banned altogether to protect us from ourselves. I have heard the same argument used against my other passion, Rugby.

I pretty much stated my thoughts on Gus's thread which, it was rightfully pointed out, was pretty tasteless of me but I felt so strongly about this issue. Like Jen, I feel that the TT has had its day and I've just read on another website that in the year 2000, 200 people had met theirs ends there and several more have died since.

Oh its challenging alright and you could argue that some riders probably got killed in North Wales last weekend doing what they love doing but they were not taking part in a regulated and supposedly organised event which has a duty of care to its competitors.

The worst thing of all is that an inquest is held for each fatality and the verdict is always misadventure but nothing ever changes and people continue to die each year seemingly with little or no improvements to safety.

Rant over.

[Edited on 13-6-2005 by Michael J]

Mmmm, yes, people die all the time playing rugby????

Please note, my comments were just that, my thoughts on the issue. I am not trying to force these thoughts on anyone, just adding my part to the debate.
You may note I added that I don't agree with the TT in it's present form. I'm not saying ban it, just change it. Some better marshall training might be a good start.
I don't see how people can blather on about superbikes being too fast for Mallory park and yet see it as ok for them to be raced flat out on public roads. It is hypocrisy at it's best.
I am all for freedom of choice, or else why do I do speeding? But there are limits, and I feel that the TT has been pushing those limits for a long time now.

Actually Desmojen they do. Maybe not all the time but I have been on the pitch when it has happened and serious injury is a regular hazard. I have also had friends killed in car and bicycle accidents but it will not stop me cycling or driving.
The TT is an extreme case but imho that does not mean it should be banned. As long as it is allowed people will choose to test themselves on this course, despite the risk and there will be people like me to admire their skill and bravery.

Then again Irish road racing pushes the same limits every round, races like the Skerries and Killguest1 are on very narrow roads, as I said last week the TT is now like another round of that series with a few guest riders added.
I see no reason to restrict the superbike class just restrict those that are allowed to enter, a minimum qualification not just on practice times which although are probably to low do stop riders pushing to hard in practice week just trying to quallify.

Jockys have been killed riding in races, horses are forced to race they dont have a choice, when a horse breaks a leg in a fall its shot!! when a bike is trashed its salvaged and rebuilt. have they banned horse racing ??

no, but the government have banned hunting - the nursery/training ground of the NH race horses:mad:

can't see them prosecuting tho, 'storm in a tea cup' bill, and its not the horse riding etc they banned its the 'inhumane' way of killing the fox

I think the TT will be killed off by other pressures than legislation. The tourism benefits are outweighed by the negative publicity in the eyes of many people who live on the island. After the centenary it may be that pressure from the locals kills it.

problem for the locals is this IS the ecomoy for many. If they kill it off, what could replace it? Who would go there - especially as they would then blanket 60mph speed limits too (I reckon) - that dont do there now? If the TT dies, so does IOM economy, so I cant see that happening until they have something to replace it, cowes week type thing may help????

All sport carries risks, mountain climbing and big ocean yacht racing are very similar in risk to true road racing but no-one tries to ban them.

The IOM is unique now and would never get off the ground if you wrote the format onto a clean sheet of paper and took it to the authorties for approval, - so you want to have a few hundred motorcycles travelling at 170 MPH plus through towns and villages where people live and its going to run for 2 weeks??.

No matter how you try and improve safety, one look at any on board footage would convince you its impossible, you'd need miles of air fence and removal of miles of trees and dry stone walls.

I'd agree riders have a choice and don't have to go BUT most riders are sponsored and its their sponsors who may choose to push a rider to attend purely for commercial reasons. Companies do use IOM results in advertising, maybe this needs to be considered and reduced.

Its a dinosaur of an event and will gradually lose its appeal, remove the commercial side and it'll go a lot quicker. Personally I'll be glad when it does but not if it ends up being banned.

Its called freedom of choice, and we still have it (just). Why stop with the TT?, plenty of other things to ban/interfere with. Do you not think that the powers that be interfere in our lives enough??

IMHO no one goes to the IOM with the thought that they might not make it back at the forefront of their mind, if they did they wouldn't do it? They don't spend a lot of time thinking what if?? If they did they wouldn't be doing it?

Everyone has their own "risk calculator". the answer that comes out, "do it or don't do it" is just different for different people as far as risk taking goes. The only problem comes when an unexpected factor comes into play, that could be a rabbit crossing the road on the TT course, it could be Pi55ed up driver running a red light when you are on you way home.

You only have to look at the rise in "adrenalin" sports in recent years, bungee jumping, base jumping, and the like to see that while some would have us remove the opportunity for risk taking from our lives others are being just as creative at finding new ways to up the risk factor.

Tourist trip to peak of Everest anyone?

I know a few who have decided they have "beaten the odds" and gotten away with it for so long and made a decsion to pack an activity in and move on to something new. That's just the factors that produce a decision in their head changing so the do it answer changes to don't do it.

The TT is a challenge that some cannot resist, like a mountain "it's there" so it has to be climbed. if it goes, what's next??


Ray

[Edited on 13-6-2005 by Ray]

QUOTE No matter how you try and improve safety, one look at any on board footage would convince you its impossible, you'd need miles of air fence and removal of miles of trees and dry stone walls.


Add airfences, run off etc & the riders will try to go faster still.


Chris:burn:

a lot of words about freedom of choice and they know the score, -as long as that is the case, ok run it, but it was not long ago when riders were very obliged to go there, - read some of James Whitham’s report on the year of many deaths including Mez Mellor; those boys were forced to muscle ill handling powerful bikes around on poor tyres. That is not freedom of choice, and if that ever returns, scrap it.

If you look now at who runs well, I would say that whilst they are clearly great riders they are not able to earn the big money at racing "safe" tracks, - perhaps Rutter is the exception. - Oh and Irish road races have to be worse, they are races not time trials on road circuits, - scary stuff.

I also think that whilst some of the "white coats" and “chalk boards” are nice, they are out of place with 21st century racing, the setup is too casual, marshals should be posted on both sides of the road and told not to cross whilst racing is on. The year David Jefferies died the bikes still did not have oil catch tanks. Whilst I agree that air fencing would be out of place on all of the circuit there is a case for taking away some of the risk in places, - or at least helping. I fear that perhaps the event is run by people opposed to change.