Body Position - What\'s best?
 

After Brands GP last week, I've started to think about my body positioning and what's best.

Up until this point I've always tried to keep my head along the centre line of the bike

However, after sitting in one of their training sessions on body position, and watching the GP last night, I'm starting to wonder whether I should make some changes.

What's the concensus of opinion, if any?

I recall this being covered on the CSS Level 1 course, but that was 6 years ago :o , so would appreciate being reminded by anyone who's attended recently. (can't do any dates this year :( aren't employers and families inconsiderate...)


TIA

Jason

I never think about where my head is, usually where my shoulders and bum cheeks are. I then let my head go wherever feels natural :lol:

But what would I know? I'm dog slow...

What I was told ...

You want to keep your spine in a line that is parallel with a line through the centre of the bike. So, if you're hanging off the bike and your spine is 6 inches from the centre of the bike, your head should be 6 inches off the bike. A tip I was given was to try and get my chin down to my hand on the handle bar. I do have high, wide bars on the monster but you get the idea.

It's only a guide though, there's a plethora of styles in MotoGP and they seem nippy enough :D

Definitely dont think about where your head is - it should always be safely sitting between your ears, and if it isnt, you wont be worryinh about it any more :D
If you want to get more 'body lean' you need to think about where your 'inside' elbow is ... cos your body will follow it of course !
That is the first simple thing to feel for when you are riding anywhere - cos the most common prob is to keep the elbows almost locked into position ... I've even seen it with someones arse hanging off the bike :P
If you get your inside elbow lower everything else will follow much more naturally.

in an ideal world your back should be parallel to the line of the bike so if your arse is 1 foot off the seat so should your head be.

Hi,

I agree with both points above. It's very important to keep the head/back/arse inline (*Waits for Dibble input on that comment!) this stops you twisting and putting too much weigh on the inside handlebar which will effect the bike's stablity in the corner.

Also, to bend your inside arm will as phil_h states allow your body to move to the inside of the bike and the corner. This the idea as it reduces the effect of the cornering forces on you and the bike, it's also a shorter distance to fall. :)

All the best

Andy

Tony, Dickie, that concurs with what I've been thinking is awry with my body positioning.

So, time to start practising before Cadwell, so I can get it feeling natural. Even though it looks a bit daft on the road :frog:

Cheers guys,

Anyone else got some suggestions?

BTW, this pic is what I currently look like from the rear, and has made me think in earnest about changing.

http://www.picman.co.uk/cgi-bin/v2.p...1&_DSC8829.jpg

:lol::lol::lol:

spoken like a true pro!

Cheers Andy.

BTW, are those dates in Dubai really £0.00

If so, can I hire a bike :)

CSS level 1 does mention about the idel body position, but this is more for when riding in a neatral position, not really hanging off. I remember Andy Ibott saying how the ideal position when upright is to just sit back in the seat and then dropp your elbows down and slouch over the tank (almost like you have no spine).

And then for corners as mentioned above (inside elbow/shoulder low, head/spine/bike parallel) etc.

Body position I believe is covered more in CSS 3. I'm due that level next and get the feeling its going to be the most helpful of all the levels for me as my body position I know holds me back and is really pants!

Added: Well what do you know...speak of the devil:devil:

[Edited on 11-7-2005 by Harv748]

doesnt actually look too bad, but could definitely be more in line.

if you want to see a really crap style, have a look at bayliss on a bike. he seems to go ok though!

thats harsh, so is arse manipulation on the Level 2 list for 9th August ????

git .....

That's right Harv. I did the CSS two day camp in Almeria earlier this year and that was level 3 and 4. Combining the body position drills with going over the visual drills from level two brought about the biggest improvements in my riding.

I's one of 2 things that I decided needed working on after Brands, because I was running out of lean on exit of Druids and Surtees too, which shouldn't be happening at the sort of laptime I was putting in.

Quick turns was the other, as I've gotten lazy over the years, and it's time to revisit them. Too much traffic down here to work on quick turns on the road safely, so I'll work on body position, then save quick turns for TA4.

Why not work Quick Turns on the road?

It's not how far you lean but how quickly you get there. So could you quick turn 15 degrees? Of course!

As for the piccys, it does show that you like to keep your head behind the screen which twists the spine and puts weight on the inside bar.

And the lean angle you have is frightening me!

Andy

LOL
still hurts as much though - cos you're going faster :sing:

actually, if you look at the 'next' pic ... I would say your only prob IS your arms are almost locked into the 'normal' position.
Go out and ride a stretch of bends tonight (on absolutely ANY bike) and think about where your inside arm is - then go back and do the same stretch thinking about bending your inside arm more than your outside arm.
I guarantee your body position will improve.

AND ... you DEFINITELY dont want to practise any more than one thing at a time - you'll end up thinking more than you're riding :D

I'll work quick turns in on the road in a week or so once I'm comfortable with the new body position, then build on body position and QT's from there. I don't want to try to do too much in one go, as I'll probably end up cutting corners and not getting the benefit.

They do lean don't they :o

[Edited on 11-7-2005 by Mr_S]

Always one thing at a time, totally agree on that point. If for no other reason how do you know waht made it better or worse if you do 3 things at once?

Dibble - I have the anal torch at the ready!

Mr_S. If only Dubai was £0 but cannot put the price in at Dirams!

I'm now scared :o

:o

You're not the only scared Dibble!

Oh dear!

Jas - could be worse you could be me trying to hang off and keep everything in line!!

Think I get lots of lean angle (felt like it anyway on some of those roundabouts yesterday and no chicken strips on the rear), just feel so alien and I seem to lean less when I hang off...or is this the point of doing it??

BINGO !

Paul, that's exactly the point, the less you're leaning for a given speed, the faster you can go around a bend.

...but then others take the **** coz you've got chicken strips....:puzzled:

I get how it works, just dont think I could do it effectively - unteachable!!

I've not read everyones replies, but here's my 2p worth...

Do what feels comfortable!

Personally I look at photo's of me racing and I think I look ever so awkward and un-stylish on the bike, but it feels great when I'm on it and that's good enough for me.

:)

yep, thats about right! ;)

Shurrup :P

It's un-sylish enough to finish 43 seconds in front of you at Snett :D

Miaow!!

;)

p.s. That donut was yummy :D

Body position
 

I make this man right, but the bottom part is as important. We find most rider sit to far forward on the bike and restrict their movement (or complicate it) it makes a big difference when you sit back.
Location points are the key to this.
:eureka:

body
 

My 2p

Look at this shot of the best in the country.

The first Two bikes show how thin a duke is compared to an inline four and that Leon has a slightly extended head style. They all lead with their heads and inside shoulder no big hanging off just half an ass and in with the head and shoulder. The line they follow is a visual line that the bike just follows not a line they try to steer the bike on, if you know what I mean. The shoulders are square to the bike and the inside shoulder and head follow the sight line. Both bikes are at full lean and the riders are looking
wear their going to be at all times, never were they are.

Knees are used as reference to lean angle. Look at the Rizza and his position, same amount of ass off with the knee fully extended out and is already using it to judge his lean angel and looking at his line through the corner and wear he is going to be.

I know I always go on about Windsurfing but this leading with the head looking at were you will be
is a lot harder to get right than we give it credit for. It is so easy to get distracted and succumb to out side influences. On a windsurf board the gibing manoeuvre i.e. 180o turn down wind is just like turning a bike. All of the above apply exactly. If any of the above are left out, the result is a fall, not get round slow or a bit messy but failure every time. To get this manoeuvre cracked on a consistent basis you must.
Learn to look through the turn, commit totally to the inside and stay committed till the end.
Outside influences that can upset this manoeuvre mite be, a choppy section of sea ahead, a gust on the surface coming in. Right there see you balls up already you notice the things that could upset the manoeuvre but now defiantly will because you are looking at them. You have to bend your knees commit to the inside and just look for the exit. Round you go, riding the chop sheeting out the sail to allow for the gust that arrives. Hay presto you did it. Well after a few years you do.

Things that can upset you on a bike.


Armco
Gravel
Other Riders
Terror
Bowel movement
Money
Just all the consequences of a balls up catching your eye and grab your attention.

O and you only get as good as them when you have mastered all of these and paid the price
of being distracted.

Luckily I have no aspirations to ride to this level.

Bowel movement!!!

LMAO

That's my biggest issue!

Looking through the turns not a problem, I'm always aiming to do that, but what I've been doing in the past is consciously keeping my head to the centreline of the bike, this is now showing up as ground clearance issues when getting it on..

This shows a scary lean angle, that was consistent when exiting Druids last week...

http://www.picman.co.uk/cgi-bin/v2.p...1&_DSC9675.jpg


There's been a huge amount of constructive advice, and unusually for the board, it's been consistent with everyone saying pretty much the same thing.

Looking back at the photo's from picman and the ones Bradders took, I can see I need to move the upper body across, with the sternum out on the inside edge of the tank being a probably initial reference. This should also draw me lower, and help improve arm position. (still doing the chicken wing thing though, just to keep them loose)

Working from home tomorrow, so out with the paddock stands at lunchtime to start to get a feel for position whilst static, then out on the road to put it into practice.

I'll be working on changing my style over the next week or so, ready for TA4, and hopefully will see an improvement in lap times. Especially when I add in the effort I'll also be putting in to quick turns from this sunday.

Bradders, you should know better, nothings unteachable, it's just how the information's delivered ;)

Did you see the super sport race at snetterton at the weekend?

The 749 would not follow the visual line of the rider, at the pace being set.

This eventually led to a very spectacular dismount, when the bike decided that it couldn’t follow anymore. He had been struggling for most of the race with the bike not turning with him.
The overhead shots picked this up all the time. It was a real display of a rider struggling with a badly set up bike. He was lucky to get as far round the corner as he did and scrub off a lot of the speed he had going in. Bowel movement I’ll say I had movement just watching it on the Tele.

:cool:

here is a pic of me some peeps say it looks wrong but it works for me.

P.s pic taken on a private road well nearly private

:lol::lol:

I reckon the best body position is horizontal - pref with eyes closed ..
and if i had a choice



....with a female on top!!!!


zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz !
:devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil::devil:: rolleye:

Jase,

I'm trying to think of it a bit differently to you, but essentially the same goal in mind. If you think about the physics of it, if you carry the same lean angle, but hang off it more - you should be able to get around the same corner faster carrying the same lean.

What I am searching for, on any bike on the track, is the most lean I can carry whilst getting off the bike as much as I can. This is the way to the fastest mid-corner speed. Much more important on the monster than it is on the 998 but if you can turn it quickly, carry max corner speed and then get off it and stand it up to get on the power quicker you're going to be faster right?

This is the nirvana I'm seeking.

much better with eyes open the light on and the girl on top and the wrong way round if you ask me :lol::lol:

I read an article in Bike mag this week with rocket Ron riding with various handicaps one of which was with a 17 stone journalist on the back, his notes read that he Shat himself at the amount of throttle Ron used when at big angles of lean. This is wear the fast boys get their lap times from. Not so much the lean angle but the drive and amount of power they are prepared to deliver to the back wheel exiting corners before and during getting the bike upright. Obviously they also brake much harder and later, and get the bike from upright to full lean faster. It was good to see that Ron can still go faster than most of us with one arm behind his back, and that a patch over one eye just meant he had to square the corners off to keep his lap time within one and a half seconds of his best Two eyed attempt. He didn’t like the winter gloves and moto x boots much though.

Another comment over the weekend during the coverage of the moto GP (you will never lose the front wheel of a motorbike with the power on, only with the power off)

So you move to the inside of the bike under braking therefor not upsetting the bike at the turn in point and using wind resistance to help slow you down.
You learn to get the bike to full lean ASAP so you can use the time saved tuning the bike for braking later.
And the one that no one likes opening the throttle hard as you come past the apex. This is were I see the difference in the fast riders. If it wasn’t for this bit we could all be fast.
:D:D:eureka:

I read the same article, and it's astounding how much throttle is used and how soon it's used as well.

Since reading ToTW and doing CSS level 1, the rolling on of the throttle once in a turn is probably the single most improtant thing I've applied to riding and you can feel the difference between doing it and not. But opening it hard, early, is very intimidating. I feel that improved body position will help improve my confidence by making me feel more comfortable, and it's also a psychological thing and let me focus on turning faster and getting on the gas harder, sooner.

Funny isn't it, that when we start riding on the track, and getting a bit quick on the road, lean angle and knee down is a thing to aim for, because it looks good and gives a perception of speed. Then we want to go quicker, and so less lean angle for less time at a given speed is what we want.

Roll on TA4 :) Out with an instructor early for me, and if by the end of the day I get 1:55's, I'll be happy as a pig in muck.

I'm always open to constructive criticism as well, so if you're out in the Inters and see me riding like a tw@t feel free to comment, but be gentle. I'm definitely the limiting factor not the bike, so time to tighten the nut behind the bars.

Morning!

Nice thread this one. I agree with Quickshifter that moving back from the tank does help. People ride up against the tnak to get a better grip on the bars, never a good idea.
The only person I have seen make "nuts-against-the-tank" work is Colin Edwards. I was watching him at Mugello between coaching Thomas and figured out that he does this to brace against braking forces, it's not the ideal but he has got it to work for him. It's also the reason you see his outside leg pointing to the sky in the turn as he cannot move back to lock in without upsetting the bike.

All the points on vision I agree with. Look where you want to go!