tyre rules need changing or stay the same?
 

so after a reasonably wet couple of races to test them, are we happy with diablo's for future racing or do we feel the need for wets?

i personally think we should cancel all races if there is even the slightest chance of high humidity but failing that i am happy to stick with the diablo's for next year.

Limited choices there mate. I don't think we definitely need wets but I'd like the option next year - if I race.

I'd like to run SC Pro's in the dry and have wets for the .. errr, wet!

If the majority decided to stay as we are this year then I wouldn't have any issues with it.

Keep the status quo - the Diablos, Andy was suprised how good they were after he had done a bit of mileage on them.

Only on our 2nd set - which going on current form, will last till the end of the season. First set did 3 meetings (5 races), and 4 trackdays.

C:)

Quite happy with the performance of the tyres at Donny, I just need a bit more weight to push them through the standing water!

Leave it as Diablo only, the advantage of wets doesn't justify the cost.

I was quite happy (after it were all over)- twas slippy but the track is anyway.

Definitely stay with Diablos. If Mark Baldock can win a wet race on slicks then we can definitely get by with our 'almost-wets' Diablos! I wasn't holding back much on the last few laps and didn't feel anything other than a few slight spins from the back.

For an idea of living with wets you only needed to look around the paddock on Saturday morning. Every other bike was sitting on two paddock stands with the wheels off until the last minute. I'm sure none of us want the hassle when there's more to be learnt using what we've got.

ali

Someone was talking to me about tyres at the weekend, and reckoned Bridgestone 002's?? were cracking in the wet and much sticker in the dry too.

I've never used them, and you may be surprised to hear this, but I hate the wet, so wets are fine by me :D

Sticky tyres for the dry and wets for the wet... it's a safety issue.

You may as well say that we don't need helmets, coz they only serve a purpose if you fall off.

yeah but there weren't significantly more fallers in the wet that in a dry race were there?

also you should put a post up about not liking the wet.:lol:

Keep the Diablos they're a superb tyre for our needs. I am now on my 2nd set after having them supplied and fitted by A&R racing on Friday and had to scrub them in timed practice.

This years Tyre bill £280 including fitting and balancing, cheap racing indeed

my tyre bill this year = zip, nada zero.

bike came with them on and just putting on my second set which were free. :D now that IS cheap.

Well, if you're saying that everyone was comfortable in the wet and riding flat out becuase the tyres gave lots of confidence, then I'll eat my bike!!!

I rode at a pace which felt to me like I was on the limit and if I went faster then I would crash - I've never had that feeling on wets.

I appreciate that not everyone could afford spare wheels and wets, but you all seem to be making a decision without actually trying the alternatives.

Someone suggests using a tyre designed specifically for the wet conditions, and 99% of you put your fingers in your ears and go "blahblhablhaalalalalalala"

The cost of big bores etc. hasn't put people off, nor the fact that racing is expensive, no matter how cheap the series is supposed to be.

Most riders have been happy to spend money on suspension and engines to increase performance, but seem upset to have to spend money on a set of wets for safety reasons.

You're all mental!!





....and can you slow down a bit :P :D

Ermmmm.... not exactly shed loads of fallers on Saturday, and those that there were wouldn't generally have been saved by wets. I haven't heard any of the other experienced racers recommending them above our existing choice, and 99% can't bloody afford them!

Now gather up your toys and return them to the the pram they came from....

So you'd be happier to go out on Diablos than wets?

Hrmmm .. I stand by what I've said above about not having issues with staying on Diablo's but I think Dom has a point.

Ali, I've spoken to a few of the experienced racers, both in our series and outside it, and most of them lean towards running sticky's and wets. And all of those that think that way quote safety issues as their reason. I'd prefer to run SC Pro's and wets but ....

.... let the riders decide and we'll all be in the same boat.

Maybe it's easier to have an opinion on tyres if you've used them.

Believe me, wets are incredible.

Pole for CB500 (in the dry session) was a 1:29

The fastest lap was a 1:36 on wets.

Pole for DD was 1:25

Fastest wet lap for DD 1:41

...now tell me that wets are crap!

It's not a cost issue, coz I can't afford them either. I can't afford to race full stop, but I find the money - we all do, so you can't use that arguement.

Also, the majority of 'riders' in this series don't know the benefits of wets, so are purely going on cost.

Do we all go out and buy £30 crash helmets coz they're cheaper?

Oh, and the winning CB500 rider (who I know and isn't blindingly fast) was 20 seconds faster than Geoff over 6 laps.

I gotta say lads, that your focus on certain issues is way off the mark.

Don't forget that next season, you don't have to go out and spend £3000 on a race bike, or racing gear or an awning or whatever.

So if you could find £4000-£8000 to go racing this year, are you honestly sure that NEXT YEAR (when you don't have to buy all that stuff again!) you can't find £300 to get wets and wheels?

:rolleye:

[Edited on 15-8-2005 by domski]

...and lastly... you're buying an asset.

You can sell wheels on afterwards, so you'll get almost all of it back anyway.

You're right Dom, I've never used wet tyres. But from my point of view, I can't think it's a good idea. This year I can't even afford to buy a second set of Diablos, so of course I don't know where I could find the money for some wet ones. Then I would need an extra set of wheels, fortunately I've got one, but if it wasn't the case I couldn't afford to buy one as well. This is for the financial aspect, which you say doesn't matter as we think it does. Another major aspect is that to use wet tyres, you need somebody to fit them... and quickly is better. And even if Johan (the other french guy) was here to assist me at Snet and Doni, it doesn't mean he will always be here for me. I think I'm not the only one to be "a team" on my own, and be sure adding this point to the rules won't help us at all. Anyway, I think if the rules would have to change, I would like to them allow less modifications on our bikes (even by sorting the bikes by engine size...) than the opposite.

[Edité le 15-8-2005 par Tonio600]

Is that what we have to wait for? A shed load of fallers.

5 or 6 people to destroy their bikes?

Like the usual way things are done in society, wait for something bad to happen and respond to that, rather than preventing something in the first place?

Look, I'm just playing devils advocate because I don't think many people are looking at this issue correctly.

It's not a cost issue.

Nobody enjoys wobbling around almost crashing everywhere on road tyres - just to save £300.

It costs £300 to get there in the first place - why ruin it by running street rubber?

I may or may not do DD next season, so this may or may not affect me - however, I think it needs to be looked at very seriously, rather than "I can't afford wets, so I don't want them" type of attitude.

Its not an affordability issue Dom. We would have been jumping about if it was - I even asked Andy if he wanted to bother in taking the bike out for the 2nd race, as he has strong 'safety issues' about tyres etc. Only once did the rear let go with him - and he said that could have easily happened in the dry on the bend, and the way he was riding Snotty at the time.

Been having an interesting chat with Mark (Hill, one of the 'Axe' murderes in the Supersport 600's at Bemsee) tonight about these tyres.

His initial thoughts back at the beginning of the season was 'you lot are loopy to consider road tyres'.
Having then later used the bike with these Diablo tyres - he was very impressed. As I said before - Andy (who has also raced a bit before) also was very impressed with them on Sat too.

Skids has also got 'previous' - and he likes them.

That only leaves Ian (the Old Man), Geoff, Clint & Glynn as 'previous form racers' to make their statements about these tyres - apart from yourself Dom, I think?:puzzled:

Having seen a few slicks in SOT taking their riders round - 2 finishing in the final 6 - its not soley down to the tyres - but also rider confidence & ability.

Overall, the tyres have been successsful so far - in our 2 mates who have ridden our bike opinions that is.


edited to say: this is a rare post by Alan:o:)

[Edited on 15-8-2005 by CK and AK]

i think it unlikely we'll get many worse conditions than saturday to ride in.

sure wets will give you more grip and clearly everyone will go quicker on them but i recon its up to the rider to ride to the conditions. i trundled round like a pussy in the wet because i dont have the skill others do in those conditions but i dont see a reason to change.

i dont see it as a safety issue per se as i think more people come off when its dry purely because they think they have all the grip in the world. thats how it is on trackdays anyhow. i know its not racing but you get my drift.

Hmm, tricky one.

Having now raced on wets, road tyres and "sticky tyres" I think that the Diablos are fine in the dry, we don't need to go for race rubber/tyre warmers/gennies etc.

I forgot that I wasn't on wets in the first race (hah, didn't think of that excuse did you WJB?!) but to be honest, up to that point I was reasonably happy with the amount of grip that the Diablos offered in proper wet conditions.

Race 2 would have been interesting on wets as a dry line was emerging by the end. A SoT bike with 130+ bhp probably would have cooked wets in those conditions, but I wonder how wets would have stood up to 6 laps from 50-60bhp?

As I said way back at the AGM, I would prefer to have wets as an option for when they are needed for safety reasons, but also remember last year pondering whether the imminent downpour meant cut slicks, inters or wets on each end of the bike, while this year it was just a case of "ho hum I'm going to get wet".

However, to mis-quote Dom, nobody wants to spend all that money on a bike, pay to race and then risk wasting it all for the sake of an extra relatively small investment.

One of the aims of this series was for people to experience racing, and the choice of using wets or not is part of that, despite being an extra hassle.

So before I get told to p*ss or get off the pot, as an in- form crasher I say go with wets for next year.

:burn:

Another in form crasher here, vote no for wets!

Simple series, simple rules.

Not convinced we had more crashes at Donny than any other round? Let me know if we did?

I crashed because I'm not smooth enough on the controls in the wet, simple as that!

Must practice,and learn not to fall down. I would rather invest £300 in 3 track days at the start of next season than go with wets I may or may not use?!

Bonsoir....

As pointed out above I have experience of racing in the wet, I have been at a couple of meetings which have been abandoned due to the wet conditions. One of which was Thruxton a couple of years ago, I thought it a strange decision as it was abandoned after the Streetstocks race which I was out in I was on Avon Azaros and haveing a fun time of it on my 130bhp Fireblade, waiting back in the holding area was my TL1000S on full wets ready for the next race which was the Sound of Thunder race which I was really looking forward to as in the streetstocks I was passing several riders per lap and relished the idea of going faster on the wets. But due to the amount of fallers in the Streetstocks race the meeting was abandoned, as I said I thought this a odd decision, especially as many of the fallers had been on Super Corsas and alike, poor tyre choice for the conditions.
in 2002 I was in a Sot race with North Glos and it started spitting as we were called to the collecting area as there had been short showers throughout the afternoon I had already opted for Dragon Evo's as a inter tyre while others including Whele went out on Super Corsas or Rennsports, at the start of the race they gained an advantage over me but as more and more rain fell I wheeled them in and passed Whele on his more powerful 996SPS then as I gained quickly on 6th place I found the rider had virtually come to a stop at the hairpin not wanting to make the turn on his SCs, I was rapidly approaching and had to try and avoid him while on the brakes, as it was a airfield circuit the dreaded overbanding made my front wheel breakaway and down I went heavily, my shoulder gave me grief for the next 6 months, my bike was damaged and why.
As I see it others made a bad tyre choice that caught them out and finally their error caught up with me.
For those that came to support me at Thruxton last year they saw that I had the 916 on paddock stands most of the time with the wheels out trying to work out what the weather was doing and make the right tyre choice.
And that is one of the problems - changable conditions - nothing more dangerous than a grid made up of bikes where some are on wets and others aren't as one will be the wrong tyre choice. We certainly can't be put in that position at the moment.

Yes this is all part of racing, but so are control tyres they are not new, its how the CB500 series started, didn't hurt Toseland any.

I do have spare wheels, I haver wets that will fit them I also have tyrewarmers but I am still happy with having a class that runs just on Diablos.

As I mentioned before if there were enough of us racing then maybe we could have two classes/grids, Budget class 583s on Diablos and a more costly class for 620/675 (properly tuned) with wets, warmers and Corsa type tyres.

Kev
I would enter the 583 class on the Diablos

This will undoubtably be one of the issues that comes up at Brands so I'm glad we've had the chance to discuss it. I hope the majority realise that the limitations are in your head, not on your wheels (it certainly looks that way from the poll). In an ideal world this series would've been for unmodified 583s and given many folk a genuinely cheap way to go racing. If I want to do £2k of engine work, spend £x00 on wets/warmers/genny/etc I'll jump ship to SoT or similar, but even if someone else was sponsoring my ride I'd still have the common sense to see that introducing more expense can only be a bad thing for everyone else.

As for not trying them, tyres are only one part of a long equation. I'm sure wets are miles better than Diablos but that could be said about many parts on the bike. What's next, ohlins all round and billet brembos? Radial master cylinders for anyone that locks a front wheel? I've crashed twice through my own fault, and if I'd crashed on Saturday it would've almost certainly been my fault too, not the tyres, regardless of conditions.

Just my £0.04+vat.....

Ali

I'm **** in the wet, always have been and probably always will be, so maybe I'm biassed BUT Dom said it all for me.

The cost of a 2nd set of wheels is not much when you've already invested in all the other bits and pieces, CSS, foreighn track days etc. Like Dom I don't understand some peoples priorities.

my vote is for wets and sticky dry tyres - like propper racers use!

Dave Jefferies 2000 Proddie TT, very wet, road legal tyres obviously not a proper racer like all the others that race in that class.

Whats the tyre rules in the national Superstocks championship and R6 cup.

Mark Baldock winner of both SoT races on Saturday winning the first one on Slicks after being held on the start line for ages, has one hell of a feel for what his bike was doing under him and has fantastic throttle control, something else real racers need to learn

Superstocks can use wets.

The R6 Cup is the only other class (as far as I am aware) that don't use wets.

Horse for courses at the end of the day - but you're wrong :P

dom,just read this again,thereseems to be some confusion in your reasons ,is it that you want to be able to go faster in the wetor a safety issue?
Butch

Namby pamby, airy fairy! Call yourselves racers?
 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Instead of moaning about having to use road tyres, do what us previously non-racers have done, get out on a road bike in winter and get used to the conditions so you know how road tyres will react in slippery conditions :o

:rodent: Yeah like THAT's gonna happen :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

do wets mean there are less crashes, or do they just mean that you crash at higher speeds ?

out of the two races I thought the conditions in the second race were worse. In that race we had 3 DNFs one because the bike was misfiring and the other two crashed out, where it was Chris that crashed and took out Glyn who was just about to complete 5 of the 6 laps without making any serious errors of his own.
In race 2 at Castle Combe we had 3 DNFs, race one at Cadwell we had 5 DNFs of which several were crashes including me and in race 2 we had 4 DNFs.

OK, my 2p's worth-sorry Dom but the above statement says it all. Yes I know you have more grip with wets, yes I know the laptimes will be faster-so what? If everyone is on Diablo's then the playing field is level, same thing if everyone is on wets-all wets allow you to do is go faster in bad conditions so you crash quicker-not sure that is such a good thing-and YES before you ask I have ridden on wets.
The other thing is cost, there are loads of spare front wheels out there since they are standard, but a pound to a penny says there are very few s/h rear wheels for 600's since they are a 4.5" rim and are the only Ducati to use that size. With 30-35 riders in the series for everyone to have wets means we need that many rear rims-I am willing to bet there aren't that many laying in breakers in the country, and they are about £550 new! So potentially you need a front rim say £100, + a new rear at £550 + wets at £200 for a pair + a front stand-hmmm, your £300 is up to about £900 Dom-for something you may not need and which has little use to anyone else unless they a racing in DesmoDue.
The tyre choice thing as pointed out by Skids is another issue, I have wets, inters, and slicks for the TZ and when the weather is a bit iffy spend half my time changing bloody wheels-if everyone is using the same tyre there is no need or agravation-which is why we went the control tyre route to start with.

John

[quote] there are very few s/h rear wheels for 600's since they are a 4.5" rim and are the only Ducati to use that size. /quote]

All 600 & 750 Monsters and SS's use 4.5" rims, and I would imagine that front rims are harder to find as not many people reverse into things.........

Me

I don't race in DD, but I don't think wets is a good idea. I completely agree with Monty in that wheel availibility will be an issue, and that it will ramp the cost up. I also agree with Electricsheep when he says people will just crash at higher speeds on wets. The Diablos are a road tyre designed for all weather conditions - I reckon they're perfectly good and safe enough for 6 laps of DD racing, whatever the weather.

My rear wheel cost me £65 and came complete with everything - disk, carrier etc, ready to put a sprocket on and just chuck in.

I might have just lined up a front for £100.

Just thought I'd comment on the cost issue.

no wets for me...i found the diablos very good..they gave good feedback in the wet..i experienced no front end slides, just rear and those seemed to be gradual depending on when i got on the power......

If we are all on the same tyres then its how much power you dial in and how good you are in the wet.........

we were all out in the same conditions on the same tyres..........some chose to ride harder than others..no different in the dry really.......

Phil

But you're the only man in the country to want one at the moment... Imagine the carnage on eBay if 34 other people want SS/Monstro wheels...? There's gold in them thar' hills....

Darren
(Off to buy up all the s/h wheels he can just in case...)

In case I havent made it clear?
 

Standard Diablo's please
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

This is from another forum, and reference to road tyres on a race bike from LAST WEEKEND...


...who's gunna tell him that wets won't make any difference???