Rockers Again
 

Well, since I bought my 996SPS I've known that it needed a shim and belt service, was quoted between 500 and 600 on average from Baines (my local independant).

But..... the dreaded phone call :( '..it needs three opening rockers' :o 'but the cams are fine!'.

So three openers, seven shims, a few seals, gaskets, oil, filters, belts, s/h belt covers (carbon ones were fitted with inserts, apparently they are not recommended as if a bolt drops out the inset falls into the belts :o - major damage)...

...£951 with labour.

So, my real question is, what is Ducati's view point on rockers, they obviously know that there is a problem, but once out of warranty do they just shrug there shoulders :puzzled:

...but, it's going really well now :D so I'm enjoying it!!

Ian.

Straight from the horse's mouth:

Thanks Shazaam, looks like I'm stuffed since Baines aint 'official', may still drop a letter into their head office since I work in the next building along!!

I think you might find that Ducati UK's stance will differ somewhat. My understanding is that they tend to pay for the parts only on out of warranty bikes but only if the bike has been fully dealer serviced from new.

I think Ducati UK's service support is a joke, I've sent them many emails regarding these issues and they just seem to copy the same content back, its probably automated.

If the product is defective they should honour it simple as that.

There are two issues with rockers though. One is chrome flaking and the other is the rocker simply wearing away which Ducati argue is down to poor servicing!

I agree that there is a fundamental design problem with the four valve pre 'stretta motors and someone with some clout (and money) needs to take Duacti to court and get it sorted once and for all.

I wish i'd seen that 3 months ago

I wish I'd seen it before I got the Duke, could have been a totally different story. I may yet switch to Japs again come next year, hopefully before anything expensive happens.

Quite like the look of the new 2006 R6.

My 996SPS needed three opening rockers replaced at the first service. I sent them to http://www.mbpducati.ca/ in Canada who charged USD 45 per piece to replate them. They use someone who repairs military jet engine parts to do the work if I remember right.

I imagine the rest of my rockers will need to go there soon.

Mike

this was the only bad thing in my 3 years of 748 ownership the realisation that my bike may need rockers replacing , the hope that it may be ok and then the phone call from the dealer with the bad news.
and the thought that every time i started my bike or gave it the berries to the redline i was actually causing damage to the rockers.
this is the only thing stopping me getting another 4 valve ducati as there is no garauntee from ducati that the problem is sorted or that they will take responsibility and pay up for any replacements no matter if the bike has been serviced by a specialist or a main dealer

having said that i understand the the 2 valve motors don't suffer this problem so when i get my next duke (which i will) it will be a 2 valver

Along the same lines i think the customer /PR and design, bascically the whole of the non racing side of ducati is suffering from the amount of money they are ploughing into moto gp and its development and also the seemingly desperate measures they are using to keep the twins competitive in WSB including trying to get the rules changed for next year

[Edited on 6-9-2005 by Nigel C]

Welcome to the joys of ducati ownership.. done 27000 miles on my 748 and its eaten 18 rockers, got the first 9 under warranty after a dealer admitted it was not serviced correctly at 6000 miles, never even looked at them.. consequently i lost the remainder of my warranty due to the fact i
used an independant workshop..

not looked at my track bike yet, but buy all accounts it should not be as bad
its an older 916 the tolerances are tighter which stops the cams bashing the rockers to bits.. I HOPE....

Well thanks for the advice guys, seems it's something we've got to live with, but I've sent a letter to Ducati UK anyway though I expect the usual brush off as once out of warranty it's been serviced by KJ Performance then Baines, worth a punt anyway :rolleye:

Judging by your experiences there seems to be roughly 1500miles to a rocker :barfy:

So how often should they be inspected, since I will only do about 2-3000 miles a year, I was under the impression that this sort of inspection is only required every 2 years, is this correct??

it can be done at any service interval if you ask just bumps up your labour costs as its not a quick job !!!

Weve been over this a number of time and its one of my big moan points about Ducatis!!

All the four valves bikes have the problem. Its not only the 748. My ST4 (916) has had three rockers.

Checking the rockers isn't part of the official Ducati service schedule so a "full dealer service history" could mean that they havent been checked since the bike left the factory. Some main dealers still won't admit that there is a problem.

Spot on valve clearances, good oil, warming the engine before thrashing it etc appear to help.

If my bike needs any this time then its getting put back together as it is and part exchanged at the nearest dealer!

Just wondering but what's the net effect of not changing a worn Rocker?

1 - you'll accumulate fine particles of chrome in your engine that swirl around with all the moving parts in the oil. Once it starts more and more chrome will flake off.

2 - I guess it could also have a knock on effect to the rotating shaft and ultimately affect the overall timing as it get worse and worse.

???

[Edited on 7-9-2005 by ziggi]

Quite quickly it will damage the cam shaft which will need replacing. So sixteen rockers and four camshafts and your looking at the thick end of £2K for parts alone!!

Not strictly true Paul. The testastretta engines aren't supposed to suffer from rocker issues.

Thats right Tony, i couldnt think of the name for the non 'stretta engines so i left it out!

Yes, as far as i am aware non of the 'stretta engines have rocker problems, its very rare on the two valve engines and i doubt if they have sold enough of the three valve motor yet.

Desmoquattro?

Sounds good to me!

A WORD FROM THE UNWISE
 

I'm certainly not a mechanical expert, engineer, Shazaam, or whatever, could be best descibed as an 'armchair expert' having read a lot on the net.

What i can talk about is the four, 4 valve engined bikes that i've covered quite a few miles on and related rocker experiences.

ST4 only did 6500 miles, so too early for any problems. Rockers not checked at 6000 service though.

ST4s just under 20,000 miles from new, no rocker problems (and yes they were checked). Maybe i was lucky or the rocker problem improved by 2001.

Year 2000 SPS bought secondhand with 7000 miles on the clock. Soon after getting this bike it needed 2 rockers and Nelly at Cornerspeed also reckoned that 2 others had already been replaced already. This bike was sold to my good mate earlier this year and i still ride it at times now. It has now done over 17,000 miles, just had full service by Nelly and clean bill of health on the rockers. I have heard that the cams on the SPS give the rockers a harder time as well.

Year 2001 996R with the first 'stretta engine, again bought early this year secondhand with 7000 miles from the brother of a lad at work so i knew its history. This is now just passed 14,500 miles and (touch wood, fingers crossed etc) no rocker problems, though i have read that the 'stretta engines do not suffer from rocker problems.

My armchair expert research (the Sigma Performance site has a particularly good article www.sigmaperformance.com )
concludes that 3 factors other than luck affect rocker wear.

Firstly the older long stroke 4 valve engines can take upto 90 seconds to start getting oil to the rockers on start up, therefore carefull start up/warm up before riding away is important along with not thrashing a cold engine before it is warm (although this last point would apply to any engine, being in the courier trade i have experienced a few high mileage bikes and vans) thereby allowing 90 seconds to get oil to the rockers. Annoys the neighbours but cheaper than new rockers.

2.
Although Ducati rec 10/40 oil, various peolple suggest 15/50 is better as being thicker the oil film clings to the rockers for longer, therfore protecting them for the next start up. I'm also from the school of thought that engines used frequently are better than those started once in a blue moon.

3.
Ducati themselves say that it is absolutely crucial that valve clearances are set correctly and this affects rocker wear. If you use a mechanic who may not do the job to perfection, and it is not an easy job you may suffer the consequences.

My experience would suggest that the 'stretta engines have cured the problem, and that in the case of the SPS with its evil cams (4 rockers in its early life) then 10,000 miles of carefull warm up, using 15/50 oil, regular use and first class servicing by Nelly at Cornerspeed has resulted in no rocker problems.

I must add in Nelly's defence i'm sure he doesn't guarrantee no rocker problems, and i'm sure other experts do the job properly (but some may not), i can only speak as i find. Finally i have also heard that Ducati have produced numerous updated rockers to try and cure the problem, and it may be that the newer rockers have done so, but there are still a lot of the original rockers, as well as the original cams in the SPS.

To sum up, warm up carefully for 90 seconds, use a quality 15/50 oil (changed every 3000 miles rather than 6000 miles), and correct valve clearances, minimises the risk of rocker problems in my opinion.

Wot Shaun said.

I had all mine replaced recently with Ducati UK footing part of the bill,but it still cost me over £900 for a service aswell. And guess what, it went back into the dealers this morning because it's started to play up again,hopefully this time it's nothing major,but it seems to have the same symptums.:flame:

Phew.....I was getting worried reading this post

:devil:

Shaun, not like you to forget the 749/999 in that scathing statement :frog:

Don't you mean the first generation teste engine? Wouldn't happen to the new generation ;)

Getting confused now! I thought that the testastretta engines, even the early ones had extra oil feed pipes going up to the head.

Don't listen to Shaun, he's just having a pop at my 998R (second generation testastretta engine) because he's jealous that his 996R (first generation testastretta engine) isn't as good ;)

None of the teste engines are afflicted with 'rocker syndrome' as far as I'm aware.

Sorry Paul, injoke between me and 'im

Ah, okay!

I've said this before, but I'll say it again: my relative lack of rocker problems (only one replaced when checked at 40,000 miles) I put down largely to using the bike regularly (nearly every day). And, to a lesser extent, maybe, the use of 15/50 oil. Ducati also claim post 2001 rockers are better. How much is in that, who's to say?

It goes without saying, of course, that I don't condone the totally unsatisfactory rocker situation in general, which has left many here, and elsewhere, with hefty bills.

sounds like a plan

This is interesting reading. It sounds much more likely that the engine oil feed leads to rocker wear rather than the claimed poor chrome plating of rockers by Ducati. Ok, it could be a combination of both but if you are Ducati official, what would you rather blame, the part or the design?

Personally I think Ducati have kept the rocker issues well under wraps and subsequently sorted the issues.

My bike needed one opening and one closing rocker this year. 4 years old 996S with 8000 miles. I do warm her up but she doesn't get used that often. First 2 years Tecmoto serviced and then last 2 years at ProTwins.

Ziggi, if you look at the mode of failure you can see that there are two quite separate issues. I don't have pictures handy but on two of my rockers the chrome had simply worn away where the cam lobe touches it. The third rocker had a tiny crack in the chrome at the edge with a small piece missing, well away from the surface that touches the cam.

not sure I agree.............. while the bikes being serviced, it takes next to no time to pull the cams and have a look. 1/2 hour tops and 4 new o-rings.
I check them on every service I do, regardless and still hold the costs at a reasonable level.

Running the engine with worn rockers will result in the performance tailing off a little as the clearances open up, the motor will get a little noisier but the worst part is that the cam lobes will wear.

The 'stretta motors run a different feed to the heads. It's directly off the pump, through shorter pipes which are also bigger bore. The head design also seems to hold more oil around the cams so they are "wet" when the bike is started.
'stretta ones are not infailable. There were stories of early failures but these were very few and far between.

BDG lists all the main points in maintaining them very well.
The later rockers do seem to last longer. The bulk of failures I see now are bikes that haven't been serviced for a while or ones that haven't been here and checked.

It's usually the openers that fail. If left, the increase in clearances seems to accelerate the wear of the closers. Too tight a clearance on the closers also does them. That also seems to be the main cause of 2V failures. They run tighter gaps than 4V.
There's more DIY done on the 2V's, and it's this that usually results in the gapping being done incorrectly.

Compensation
 

Has anyone received compensation who doesnt get their bike serviced at an authorized dealer?

I was thinking of the overall additional cost who's to say if it takes 1/2 hour you get charged that !! but point taken :)

heres my two little b*****s