Define a non scoring Guest rider
 

Desmo Due Rules and Guest Riders

Just thought I would have a bit of a winge

With more racers intending to join in the series for the last round at Cadwell will they be classed as Guest Riders and not collect points or more importantly take points off riders that have been competeing since the start of the season if they do not meet the following Desmo Due rule

2.1.4 Qualifications for entry to the series

2005

Entrants applying after 12 February 2005 for the 2005 series will have to have been fully paid up members of the Ducati Sporting Club as at 1 January 2005, novice licence holders or not have raced for at least 5 years.

Its already been happening and along with riders getting away with jump starts it has an effect on the overall points total, I know it has on mine.

Kev

Who else is planning to join?
And who's getting jump starts?

Well I know Hawk and T5mission (Adam) are expecting to be out at Cadwell and there may well be others.

As for the jump starts they know who they are, from my view on the 5th row of the grid the long hold of the red lights in race 1 looked as if it caught one or two out, one of which looked good on the video I was shown

[Edited on 13-9-2005 by skidlids]

Ah - video evidence - great !! Maybe that'll explain why I start so badly!!! ;)

My starts were perfect... it's just that the lights went out after I started :lol:

Thats what someone else said, it appears they were watching you and not the lights Dom

How can they confirm a jump start? Are there some judges looking at us? THey're using video? Or maybe they can detect a moving transponder???

I jumped the start on race 1 but I was waaaaaaaay back on slot 34. I'm glad it wasn't just me who thought that it was a long hold on race 1.

Hmm, tricky one. On one hand in the original spirit of the series races should be open to any Club Members fulfilling the criteria, whether they registered at the start of the season.
On the other hand with only small numbers of points separating several groups of riders (yes, that includes me) it could be a bummer losing points, or worse having a "racing incident" over position with someone who is perhaps only using the round as practise for next year and may not meet the 2005 criteria.

Maybe points for the last round should only be awarded to people who have competed in one round this year, regardless of their meeting the requirements?

Tin hat on ;-)

And yes, it seemed a longer hold to me too!

Well I know Hawk and T5mission (Adam) are expecting to be out at Cadwell and there may well be others.


Kev Im sure Adam will not be a points stealer, Cadwell for him is a test for next year, toe in the water so to speak. After his last episode there I would imagine him being very Ginger AHH 2 of em now sorry NB.
Dont know enough about Hawk to comment tho.
your Still top of the 583s And by the way you rode at Brands I can see you having no problems holding that position.
Speak soon
Glyn

Have you been a naughty boy again Dom:puzzled:

Andy #99

.

Yes Glyn I know I am top 583 and as you say that is hopefully not going to change although my championship position probably will, even without Dom there its likely that a couple of the 620s are going to out score me on the faster track unless it rains (PLEASE), especially as my lead over one of them would be slightly higher if 10 second jump start penalties had been awarded in race 1. Still nothing I can do about that now as New Era issued the results of the race. So I will just have to try harder at Cadwell.

But there are a lot of riders that have been battling all season and are only seperated by 1 or 2 points which could easily be affected by a new entrant, more so if they are a fast rider.
eg if Andy Roberts was to beat Tim Howard in race 1 at Cadwell with Andy finishing 6th and Tim 7th, then the 2 points difference would put Andy equal with Tim going into the last race, however if another rider only entered at Cadwell finishes a head of them pushing them down to 7th and 8th then Andy would remain behind Tim in the championship. It also works the other way as rather than Tim loosing the lead over Andy he could be increasing it by 2 pointsif positions were reversed or by only 1 point if they were both pushed back a position.
Riders at the opposite end of the table could also suffer.
Say Psychlist finished 24th, new entrant 25th and Senna3 26th in race 1 then Senna 3 would be over taken in the championship by Psyclist where as if the new entrant didn't score they would again enter the last race on equal points.
The whole point of the Scoring system running from 1st to 25th and from 35 points down to 1 was to award consistancy, so that riders at the tail end got something for their effots and would have a final championship standing at the end of the season, hence that championship position and who they finish ahead of being important to them.

Kev

not being funny but are lots of people that bothered about a place or two in the overall standings?

if its any help to know chaps:

Andy is on hols for Cadwell, so the bikes are going as follows:

The tango queen WILL be ridden by an exisiting racer in the series, under their OWN number

Doug will be riding the Snotmobile again, tho he didnt get any points at Brands - and his start wasnt too hot either, as he is the first to admit:(

HTIOH?

C:)

With some people having initial goals of finishing inside the top 10 etc then Yes they probably are bothered by there overall standing, others by who they finish ahead of and as for me I just want to be ahead of as many 620/674s as possible, which on a 583 isn't that easy.

You were not far wrong, Kev.;)

[Edited on 13-9-2005 by Felix]

yeah i see what you mean. just had a look at the table. fairy nuff i recon. i'm looking to move up 5 places at cadwell. bring it on.

Absolutely I am - and I'm sure most others are too!!!

Skids - you make a fair point about the guest riders (or not).

I'd propose (or similar) a solution that said "points could only be scored at Cadwell by entrants who have already competed in 2 races, otherwise they assume guest status"

Tim

i'll second that proposal

Here Here..that gets my support Tim............



[Edited on 13-9-2005 by fil2]

Why do I feel that the race committee is being ganged up on today?

Well it's been nice for me to say I've got points regardless of the fact that i'm last almost every time and the points run down to 25th. In fact I was a little disappointed I got none this time at all :sniff:

I'll back your proposal as it is better written than my earlier one :P

Kev, I'm not aware that any of the more recent entrants do not comply with the written criteria, with the possible exception of Hawk, about whom I don't know enough.

Seems unfair to me to suggest at this late stage that we should change the rules when we've had all year to consider this and any new entrants may have based their decisions on those rules.

if they are entering the last round at cadwell in preperation for next year or as a late entrant..then would they be bothered if they did not score points..??...im sure they would possibly feel akward scoring points and causing a DD entrant that has raced all year to drop a place.........I know i would ...........

Phil

Anybody doing Cadwell that meets club criteria will have paid 12 months subs to DSC and new era,they will also paid a full 12 months for an acu licence.
Why should they be deneyed points?
To my mind you cannot move the goalposts at this late stage to suit existing members.
I thought "Guest riders" were riders that did not meet the rules for the series not members of the club that are already commited to the series for 2006.
Butch

From memory, so I may be wrong, guest riders are those who have not formally entered the series. This was primarily introduced for the riders of the Ducati UK bike, who would only do 1 round and should not influence the points standings. The only other guest rider to my mind that we have had this year was Marc Potter on Dave Riley's bike, who again did not score any points.

I am not aware of anyone who is racing at Cadwell who isn't already committed to the 2006 series, what would make them 2nd class citizen's then.

We could have the case of someone who broke an arm after the 1st round and is only fit for the last round and now the suggestion is that they should not score points.

If you want to make a Championship position, you have to beat people on the track

[Edited on 13-9-2005 by ChrisBushell]

I'm thinking that if someone qualifies to enter the series and pays their money to race, then they should be entitled to the same glories as the rest of the field.

Did Lanzi forfit his points last weekend as a stand in rider?

after reading the above posts.......i have changed my view and agree....if you enter the race then the position you finish in should be awarded the points accordingly ( unless you are a guest rider ).


Phil

I Fully agree, WSB wild card Riders used to score points and There is a lot more at stake in their small series(Small compared to DD)
Japanese Wild card riders at sugo spring to mind. So why shouldnt anyone else ??:sing:
glyn

I'd agree Phil, but its what defines a guest rider that I'm suggesting the change is made to.

I believe that guest rider status should be given to any rider who enters the series without an ambition to take part in the whole series, or someone who joins the series late (say after three quarters of the rounds have passed) just to gain experience. (if they joined that late they cannot reasonably be expected to score enough points to factor)

Therefore we allow riders to gain experience or testing, and by not gaining points, not hinder any riders who are battlling for champs positions.

Just beacuse other race series don't have these restrictions doesn't mean we shouldn't either.

We should do what's in the best interests of the riders who have supported the race series all year.

Tim

Tim you put it very well and that is my point, especially as some will recall many off us put down a £200 deposit to commit to this series.
The rules as I stated above say

Entrants applying after 12 February 2005 for the 2005 series will have to have been fully paid up members of the Ducati Sporting Club as at 1 January 2005, novice licence holders or not have raced for at least 5 years.

If they don't comply with this then they are not 2005 series entrants and should therefore not score points which I think should apply to those having a one off ride at Cadwell in preperation for 2006 which is a differnt series.

yeash thinkng about it, you cant go changing rules to suit. if they are eligible under this years rules then they can score points. simple. doesnt matter if they do one race or 7. if someone does i race then decides to not do anymore their points are still counted. at the end of the day the grid changes a bit from race to race so i guess its swings and roundabouts. there are at least 5 people absent that were in the first meeting. some people will shuffle up the pack on the back of that i recon.

Sometimes I feel that this series is getting a little ahead of itself.

This is the first year of a new race series and as such is a resounding success.

Whilst being considerate of the great efforts of the organisers, I think we should remember that without the support of the riders who signed up last year and/or took the grid at Cadwell on race one, the series would not be where it is today. I think this should be remembered.

At the risk of being overly controversial, I believe that the series needs a reality check and we should understand that this first year should be considered as just that, a first year of a new race series. A year long series where championship points count for this year alone and not a series that serves only to meet the "bigger picture" commercial and personal aspirations of entities not directly competing in it. If external entities can gain from the series that is all well and good, but not if that detracts from the series as a whole (in particular the riders partaking) and the series should not be beholden to these.

In addition, I understand that individuals may want to compete in the final stages of this year so that they can see how they compare, test their bikes against similar machines, or be more prepared for next year, but we were not afforded such luxury. Take part by all means, compete if you like, but do why detract any points from entrants who are taking the final round more seriously than perhaps just a shake-down test.

We do have the opportunity to make the rules for the series, we can be influenced by what rules other series (at whatever level) adhere to, but please lets allow the rules to work in the best interest of the riders.

I am delighted to be a competitor in this years DD series, but feel that the "bigger picture" is taking over. This year is not just a feeder year to next year's DD, it is a series in its own right and should be recognised as such.

Tim

kind of agree, but i dont think you can change rules retrospectively. people that have shared rides havnt been excluded because they had no chance of winning it. at the end of the day you have to go out there and beat the others who are on that particular grid on that particular day. at least 3 people around your level wont be at this meeting who were at the first. you are generally going to be racing against the same riders but there will always be a slighltly different make up.

I just can't understand how people can disagree with that... :puzzled:

A racer who races only at the last meeting is still a racer, so I can't see why he wouldn't get all his points. And if he does better in one race meeting than others do in 6 (and I think about me when I say this) and change the standing, I don't see why this couldn't be desserved. Just accept the fact some people are faster than you, and everything will go right.

Of course I meant any racer entring the series next year...

or they may just be on a faster bike (620) than myself, Psyclist and Lin and a few 674 riders, hence the talk of next year and 2 classes and if it was one grid with more entrants than starters would it be the 583cc class riders that always loose out.
I and a few others will be riding the wheels off our 51 to 52bhp bikes to try and get some points we don't need people coming along at this late stage on 620s or in my case 674s testing for next season and taking points off us on a track where we already know certain bikes have an advantage out of Barn down the start/finish straight which will only be amplified down Park straight. Yes I will be trying to beat them on the track but if its the last lap at the entry to the old hairpin it may well make a difference to what I do if I know they are scoring points or not and this could also apply to others.

Just one more thiught,(and i use Kev as example) .
Assuming the 2 new riders beat Kev he would still be 2 places further up the grid than he would be if ALL the riders that started the season were riding(the fact being that at least 4 (usually top 15 finishers) will not be starting at Cadwell .
In my book that would be a result if I were in Kevs position.
As to supporting the riders that have done all 5 rounds,why should we penilise those that are the future of the series.
butch

not sure if you were at the meeting but this was sorted.