The ST Range
 

Guys n Gals
I have just finished reading December's edition of "Touren Fahrer" (the best german bike mag for us touring bike fans). In it they list all the bikes that will be on sale in 2006, so I scanned the Ducati list and yes as per some previous comments on the DSC site - Ducati are onlky marketing the ST3 and ST3abs. Unbeliveable that they drop their best bike the ST4s. I've said it before and I'll repeat it again - they've lost touch with what the "Sports Touring" motorcyclist wants.

In total contrast that very clever Derbyshire chap "John Bloor" has just lanched his latest generation Sprint ST and all the german mags are stating quiet clearly that it is the best sports touring bike on the market.

Well if the folks at Ducati don't up their game in this segment of the market they can only look forward to Triumph stealing customers and market share from them.

It is no wonder that Senior Executives in Bologna stated recently that they have hada very tough and disappointing sales year!!!

[Edited on 26-11-2005 by Athelstan]

I know that the ST4s is an incredible bike, i've serviced loads of them, some with 24K+ miles on them and still going strong BUT has any one ridden the ST3 ? If not then try it ! You might not think that it would be as strong as the 4s but it feels very torquey. All of our customers who have bought one love them.
If your local dealer has a demo TRY IT, I think you will be suprised. Iknow the styling may not be to every ones taste but the '05 ST4s looks the same any way.

Hmmmm... Sort of agree. All of us ST owners know how underated they are, but I can see how they've dropped the 4S.

If you look at Ducati's engine range, the older engine designs like the 996 are getting harder to get through the tightening emissions regs.

If you think about it, Ducati now just make the latest generation two valve engines for the Monsters, Multistrada's and SS's, a three valve variant of that for the ST3 and the testastretta's for the 749/999, and now the S4RS.

So that just leaves the S4R using the 996 lump and my guess is that when next years bikes (for 2007) are announced, the S4RS will become the S4R and the 996 engine will be quietly dropped to rationalise production.

I also think that Ducati don't quite know what to do with the ST range. My ST2 and the first generation ST's were always more sport than touring, which is why, I think, they make such fantastic all-rounders. I don't think the later bikes with their bigger 'honda-esque' fairings quite appeal to the sports inclined rider so much, especially now that panniers come as standard, because Ducati have taken them more towards the Touring end of the spectrum. But, they don't appeal to the touring fraternity either 'cos they'll stick with their Pans and Beemers.

So I think the ST range is a bit lost at the moment, neither one thing or the other, and it's even got internal competition from the Multistrada. To be honest, even though I love my ST, I reckon the Multi is the better all rounder, and panniered up with a corbin seat on it, I reckon it would make a better tourer as well.

Who knows, maybe once the S4R gets a testastretta, Ducati might see fit to producing an ST with one as well.

You're right Steve - the ST3 is a great bike. IMHO the 996 engined ST4 is smoother and a more together sports tourer though. The VFR is however ... ;)

As I said "Ducati lack direction".
The ST3 may be a good bike Steve, but, the vast majority of the sports touring bike buyers are just not stumping up with the cash, and that's what counts if Ducati are going to stay in business. And, ST4's should be going strong long after you've done your 24k service on them - if you'd have said 124k then I'd be impressed.

Mine (2001 model ST4s) is a belter and I hope it stays that way as I won't be putting my money down on an ST3. (Phil has let me try both the ST3 and Multistrada and they don't do it for me when it comes to putting down 4 to 600 miles in a day very quickly to get from A to B or when in mid gear squirting the gas to overtake a towed caravan on steep alpine pass safely with loads to spare.

The sales figures across all European, US and Japanese markets clearly indicated that Ducati's whole range of bikes have lost their shine with the buying public as both volume and market share has declined. And in my humble opinion, I will be very surprised if the retro bikes (PS/S/GT 1000's) or the Monster's S2R 1000 and S4RS in 2006 will lift the global sales figures.

Jools you are right to touch upon the "styling" fairing change that Ducati did to the ST range - that exercise moved the bikes away from their european visual signature towards a bland asian canvas and did nothing to enhance the "creative" appeal of the ST bike to none Ducatista.

The "testastretta" engine is the way forward together with a new dynamic european fairing plus the re introduction of Ohlins instead of the Showa's/Sachs units; a move back to those wonderful little touches of crafted aluminium stalks for the brake and clutch fluid reservoirs which have been replaced by bits of plastic and a single sided swinging arm to facilitate speedier rear wheel removal plus a carbon fibre rear hugger instead of the latest plastic incarnation - then and only then - will I part with my old '01ST4s and hard cash for another new Ducati.

[Edited on 27-11-2005 by Athelstan]

Sorry guys ..
 

... I don't agree the testastretta engine is the way forward. The V4 is the way forward as V twins are losing their cachet in the eyes of the buying public. Even Terblanche has been quoted recently as getting bored with designing V twins ...

Henners
Ultimately I agree, but I did not mention it as it is a step too far re timing for the ST range - Ducati are almost certain to drop the V4 into the "Super Sports" range first.

I started this tread because I for one do not want to be "bored" with the Ducati product offering and be forced to switch to another manufacturer that is "on-the-ball" with their Sports Tourer models.

ST Range
 

Whilst it is easy to sympathise with those of us who prefer the St4S model, we do need to face up to the fact that Ducati is in dire straits financially. They are losing money hand over fist and the reality is that the company is battling to survive.
Rightly or wrongly, they decided that a Desmo 3 motor is the best way to go for a sports touring bike. I may be in the minority here but I agree with them. A sports tourer, by definition has to be something of a compromise and I believe that the 3 valver is just right. The bike is fast and you would sail past caravan towers or anything else on Alpine passes.
I cannot agree that the Multistrada competes with the ST3 as a tourer. Of course it may serve as reasonably useful for this purpose but is nowhere near as good. Good bike though it is I found it unsatisfactory for long distance riding and got rid of mine.
The ST3 is the most comfortable bike I have ever ridden, it handles well, the motor is perfect for its purpose, the screen protects and the mirrors work, the handlebars are easily adjusted to high or sporty low positions. The ST2 is a good bike but those I know who have changed up to the ST3 are very happy and are holding on to them.They are excellent value for money and the new ST3S has ABS for those of us who go for such things.

As an ex-ST3 owner myself I agree that it is a very good bike, however, I don't believe the 3 valve V twin is an ideal engine for the role of sports tourer. Sure it's got a very good spread of power and torque however it's very lumpy at low revs and not good to ride because of that in slow traffic. It also vibrates a fair bit more than the 4 valvers. It does offer great comfort and wind protection although the handling isn't inspiring and neither are the brakes.

Consequently when I was looking round for another sports tourer I decided that the pre-Vtec VFR800 was the one to go for and I believe that it offers the best package for this role in terms of power delivery, handling and build quality compared with anything on the market - including the Triumph ST.

V twins still offer great superbike thrills and if I didn't dislike the shape of the 999 so much I'd still have a Ducati. The Fireblade I've just bought is a simply stunning bike to ride - it makes going fast seem slow just like a 998, however 4000 mile services are only £90, the finish is superb and the ultimate performance just amazing with 150bhp at the rear wheel :o

Ducati is in a very difficult position. The next generation of engines have to be V4s and I don't think they have the time to wait and drip feed them in through the superbike line. I really really hope they make the right decisions so I can come back to Ducati ownership.

I agree with the fact that Ducati are in dire straits, that seems to be the fate of so many Italian motorcycle companies - boom, bust and financial rescue.

I also agree that unless they're switched on to change, the brave little Euro manufacturers will suffer the same way as the British motorcycle industry did. I remember riding the first Honda 750 Four to appear in our locality and I remember laughing with my mates afterwards about the horrible rubber frame, the horrible rubber on the japanese tyres and the way the chrome was showing signs of rust and flakiness on a 3 month old bike....Nah! I'll keep my 'bitza' A10 ta... then look what happened, the Japanese continued to improve on the design and engineering (they've never been great innovators) and the rest is history.

In reading roadtests of the time about my 888 the thing that comes across is that it destroys the Japanese competition of the day as an all round sportsbike, but times have changed. The Japanese have upped the ante, and despite the fact that nobody can really use all the power of a modern sportsbike on the road, there will always be those people who are impressed by 'willy waving' statistics and will want the latest, greatest whether they can use them properly or not. In fact, they seem to want them in droves. Simple equation for a Japanese superbike. More Power, More Speed, Handling that's on a par (if different) and two thirds the price of a 999 and you don't have to be a genius to work out what's going to appeal to the masses more.

So yes, to compete in that market, Ducati can no longer rest on their racing laurels and they're going to have to produce a bike that can compete on equal terms with the Japanese - if the stats of the new ZX10 are to be believed, the benchmark is getting up to a pretty stupid 180 bhp. They won't be able to compete on price with the Japanese, but there are enough people willing to buy into a bit of exclusivety that it shouldn't be a problem (after all, some people buy Aston's when the comparable Jag is cheaper). Under those circumstances the V4 is the only way to go to get that sort of power (after all why would you buy a Ducati if it was just another IL4) and if they could do that with their superbikes they'd be back in the game - wouldn't it be great for Ducati to make the worlds best superbike.

At the moment they just make the worlds best V-twin sportsbike and a twin is never going to make the outright power of a four.

But, here's the thing - I LOVE V-TWINS and there are a hell of a lot of people - including me, that have bought a Ducati because of their V-Twin engine, as well as their desmo valves, dry clutch and all the other characterful traits that give them soul. So sorry Henners, I don't think the V-Twin has had it's day - when I bought my 888, I might have had a fleeting split second notion to get a Honda SP2 instead, but I would never have even considered a Fireblade.

You state your case very well Jools, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. Ducati has appealed to those of us who get a buzz from riding Desmo. V twins.
Ducati are a small company who have done amazingly well in world markets but there is no way they can be expected to outshine the mighty big H.
No one can argue against the facts that Fireblades and VFR's are great bikes. Their popularity is astonishing and well deserved. The Gixer the R1 and ZX10R are all superb in their own way but none gives to me the buzz I get when I really open the throttle on a Ducati V twin.
Surely it's this very reason why the contributors to this message board ride Ducatis in the first place. Otherwise we should all be riding Jap fours, or BMW boxers.

Never said that V twins have had their day Jools. What I did say is that the next generation of Ducati engines have to be V4s - including the sports tourers - a point on which I think we agree.

A V4 gives you the ability to match the power per cc of an IL4 together with it's low rev smoothness but with the character of a V twin and the sound is evocative - think Joey flat out at the IoM on a RVF :D

It's clear that V twins are not attacting the buyers at the moment, the sales figures and the failures of high profile Ducati dealers tell us that. The V4 is the logical way to go for Ducati in view of the MotoGP factor and also because the only hope in WSB for Corse now is to get the capacity limit for twins up to 1200cc - that says it all. I know that the 999 won BSB however I believe that was far more to do with the profesionalism of GSE and the failure of HRC.

You say you have never even considered a Fireblade. Try mine for a test ride before ruling it out - it will very pleasently surprise you ;)

Remind me never to have an argument with you Henners,well put and as usual a compeling veiw.


PS,can i book a test ride?

This is a great discussion with many valid points being raised by all - tis a pity that we are not all together in the pub debating the ST and the wider "company viability" issues that have been touched upon. Keep your views on both subjects flowing.

Benelli has just been picked up for 5million Euro by Quianjiang-Corp. We certainly don't want Brilliance Auto or Nanjing or Willy Wonka and his Cocolate Factory Corp picking up Ducati do we chaps...........

Yes, this is a great discussion. It's so good to see other people's points of view on these matters.
One thing is patently obvious and that is the overriding passion we all feel for Ducati.
To echo your sentiments Athelstan, I would appeal to all to keep the contributions to these subjects rolling in.

Good points from Jools and Henners, however how many bike purchases are really logical decisions? What percentage of the buying decision is based on passion, emotion and even egotism/posing?

The desire not just to own something thats f.ing quick and exciting, but looks drop dead gorgeous. I think this is very important when it comes to buying a less mainstream product like a Ducati over a Honda.

Ok not all of Ducati's products are at the hypersports end of the market, but the image rubs off onto the more mundane products. (this isn't a dig at ST's, Multi's etc. I've owned and enjoyed them) but surely someone could have designed an ST with that little extra pizzaz.

Therein itself lies the problem as Ducati at present aren't tempting enough mainstream buyers away from Honda.

I don't have anything against Honda's, in fact had loads of them. My friend is a Honda dealer and really will do me an absolutely cracking deal on any Honda, yet i still go out and spend more on a 3 and a half year old bike than what i could get a new Blade for. Good bike but just doesn't do it for me, but then again neither does the 999 style bike either.

My dealer friend thinks i'm insane, but maybe i (we) are not representative of the mainstream buying public, which i suppose makes it even harder for Ducati.

Treblanche may have said he's a little bored of designing V twins, personally i'm bored of his current designs (Hypermotard excepted).

Stick a stretta engine in an Ohlins equipped ST and give it a grown up 916 style front end/916 rear end and i think it'd be far better than the Triumph. Just don't paint it yellow!
Oh god i'd better stop drinking at lunchtime...nurse!

Oh by the way, my original point to Henners before i digressed, is this Spanish lark just a smokescreen for you to sell the 996R and buy a Honda. :lol::lol:

Come out of the closet man, be brave and tell us the truth :devil:

[Edited on 28-11-2005 by BDG]

... I refer the honourable gentleman to my earlier post :(

Ah so, point taken. Thank you sir.

[quote]Originally posted by BDG
[Stick a stretta engine in an Ohlins equipped ST and give it a grown up 916 style front end/916 rear end and i think it'd be far better than the Triumph. Just don't paint it yellow!

BDG - now that's a good design direction - bravo. But please include YELLOW in the colour options for quirky folks like me.

And I also agree that is not logic that prompts the initial interest in a product - it is passion, wherever it is drived from, function follows thereafter. Get the adrenalin flowing and you've got yourself a buyer 90% of the time.

[Edited on 28-11-2005 by Athelstan]

I can see the rationale behind Ducati reducing the ST line up to just one ST and I agree with that, but it has to be class beater. I can't imagine an Sports Tourer of less than 900cc of any flavour doing it for me, I have an ST4 with a 916, I did test ride an ST3 with the larger engine but cannot remember it being less smooth, just more money.

If/when Ducati bring out a V4 then IMHO thats got to be in an ST and the Multistrada you can call it what you like but if the marque is to continue it needs to sell bikes, surely that comes first.

We can all be dewey eyed about Vtwins but for me the marque comes first.

Agreed, but for many Ducati = V-Twin

If/when Ducati do bring out a V4, I wouldn't hold your breath until it's dropped into a Sport Tourer. People have been saying that the top of the range ST should have a testastretta motor for years and we still ain't got one.

But I agree with BDG, a testastretta would make a lovely engine for an ST. With that and a few styling changes to make it look sexy it would compete with the Triumph - which I agree, seems to be the best of the current crop.

Now if they'd only bring out a 'big bang' V4 with all the power of a IL4, but the drive and traction of a V-twin out of corners, then you'd be talking

Big bang V4 in an ST....That's what I'm waiting for......How long untill I'm too old to ride:lol:

Just took my ST 4 in for 12 month service and got a Yamaha 250 Scooter as a loaner. Performs adequately in commuting chores, is smooth, pretty fast, quiet, great brakes, starts right up and rides right off everytime, has lots of storage, but is totally boring. The dealer said basically the same thing and he uses a Vespa 125 with panniers and rear luggage for commuting. He said there is no smile factor in the Yamadog, but he lights up everytime he rides the Vespers.... I like my ST4 mucho, but my first ride on an ST3 was a lot of fun and pretty surprising. Seemed to be smooth and responsive. A horsepower and torque boost would make it a pretty pleasant tourer I would imagine. Still, sad to see the 4 go. Dealer said there may be something new down the line, but he is not sure what. The 4 is pretty civilized, but it still lights me up everytime as there is that V-twin eroticism I guess. If Ducati chooses to lose that in exchange for more civilization, I think they will lose clientele at the same time. THere needs to be some roughness in the equation or you just end up riding a glorified scooter.
Finally, a poster made the remark that the Japanese are not innovators. I think we are well past that stage. There is so much innovation in Jap bikes that you are just not aware of. Innvovation is one of the last selling points of Japanese products as China continues to become the factory of the world. But declaring the Japanese to be non-innovators is a little like saying Brits don't know how to drink beer (Germans love that one).

MDB
If by "roughness" you refer to a "unique characteristic" then I agree entirely.

I've no desire to be pedantic, but as we are talking Ducati I refer to the language of Rome - latin - and the reference to "innovation" by Jools and yourself re the Japanese. The latin "innovare" is to intoduce a truely new idea, method, or product; now whilst I am not professor of industrial design I struggle to identify anything that the Japanese have done that earns them the accolade of "innovare". I'd rather applaud their exceptional genius of "modificare".

We do need to be very careful when handing out Nobel prizes for innovation - "plagiarius" - is rife. It was only on the 15th June 2002 did the "American Scientific Congress" finally agree with what the whole of Italy and the European scientific community had been saying for donkey's years, in that A.G. Bell did not invent the telephone. A destitute immigrant from Florence, one Antonio Meucci did.

Caesar is dead - long live Ducati

unique characteristic...agreed wholeheartedly
innovare....agree again
I work in a patent firm and I see innovation everyday, according to international standards at least. The Japanese do not hold a backseat to anyone in that field. Bikes coming out of the big three (four) factories are full of innovation that was not plagerized from somewhere. They have been on top of the technical game for so long in that area that there is really no need to plageriize anymore. Besides, old man Honda, bless his soul, was adamant in insisting his engineers innovate. He used to throw spanners at guys trying to copy the Itais in the early years.
Kind of a hard moniker to throw off, but it is not a deserved one any more (besides which, who would they copy in the bike field?????? BMW, Harley, KTM, Vespa?)

Long Live the Duc!

Talking of innovation ..
 

... desmodromic valve gear was invented in Germany and first fitted to a Mercedes I believe :saint: I really love Ducati and have had more fun on my Ducs than any bike I've owned. Can't wait for the V4 to arrive in an almost affordable package :D

Henners
If what you say about the desmo valve gears is true then it perfectly illustrates my point - that those who wish to dish out innovation accolades need to be very careful when they do.

Personally, I couldn't care if the next Ducati was a truely new innovation or a step forward via modification, so long as it was visually and characteristically european - and made in Italy.

The latest Triumph ST seems to be enjoying the praise of all the motorcycle press and I believe that people are ordering them in droves without even having a test ride.
It's great to see that our home bred manufacturer has produced a bike that is getting such accolades.
Does anybody know what the bike is really like to ride etc.?

Desmodromic valve gear
 

.. first used by Mercedes in their W196 racer at the 1954 Rheims Grand Prix. That was a good year :lol:

Dunno, but I've left a couple of 'em waaaaay behind through the twisties on my ST2 :devil:

Mate has a new Triumph St after having a VFR800...
His report after doing a lap of Spain & Portugal was that he wanted to turn around & go again.....

IMHO the Triumph has by far a better engine and should be far better than the VFR.

In the pre VFR VTEC days i attended a Honda development focus group. Albout 15 out of 20 people said that the VFR needed a bigger engine, less weight, and better handling. The other 5 wanted a sportier Pan Euro.

The Honda staff kept banging on about wouldn't you just love variable valve timing and ignored all the feedback.

Having just bought my first ST4 i suggested that Honda copy that (much to their disgust!)

I searched for the elusive perfect sports tourer for many years.

VFR 750 early and late model
VFR 800 (not the crappy vtec thing either)
Firestorm
Triumph ST

Now to me the heart of the bike is the engine, next requirement is good handling and looks and soul are important up at the top of the list as well.

The VFR's covered an accumulated 40,000 miles.
Firestorm did 4000 miles in 3 months and was sold
Triumph covered about 5000 miles in 4 months and was sold.

I bought my first Ducati, an ST4, i loved that so much i replaced it with an ST4s on which i did about 20,000 miles.

The Ducati came closest to giving me what i wanted from a SPORTS tourer, emphasis on sports.

The VFR's were efficient but bland and soul less, The firestorm just ran out of petrol in less than 100 miles all the time and had basic suspension.

The Triumph had the best engine out of that lot so far but still didn't inspire me despite in many eyes being better than the VFR.

Most of the press didn't rate the ST4, but i tried one and loved it. Comfy, great engine, best handling of the whole bunch and some emotion.

I got the Ducati bug so badly that i now use a 996R with helibars, higher screen, Technosel seat, and ventura luggage as my all time favourite SPORTS tourer.

Nothing compares to the buzz of a good long days ride down twisty foreign roads, "bend surfing" then plotting up in a nice hotel, sitting in the sunshine with a cold beer, some good food, admiring the best looking bike ever made, covered in dead flies; comparing the days riding.

Sports tourers are about having fun, not just droneing up and down motorways with everything but the kitchen sink on board, and gods knows with despatching i've done enough miles up and down motorways on BM's, Pan's, CX 500's, Katana 1100 and GPZ900r's.

I go back to my first ramble on in this post about what a new Ducati ST4+ or ST4SPS should offer.

Time to get of my soapbox.

Rushjob
Jump on your mate's new model Triumph ST and then let us all have a subjective report ST4s viz a vie the Trumpet :bouncy:

The report I read in the german mag was just over flowing with praise, and I have seen that the other german bike mags are doing the same. Now this tells me that it must "cut the mustard", as the Germans love to slate both UK cars and bikes, so when they issue "warning" notices to BMW that their crown is slipping in the touring department the Hinckley boys must have come up trumps.

BDG, that is exactly the point! Expressed my sentiments very well.
I found the VFR uncomfortable after about 150 miles and pretty soul less. Sure it runs forever and does everything reasonbley well, but does it have the smile factor?
Got back on my ST4 last night after fighting traffic on a 250 Yamadog scooter and just smiled all the way home. I love innovation and admire the Japanese for the level they have helped bring motorcycling to, but the Italians have the ability to pour soul into their red (and other colored) machines.

Totally agree MDB - I want an Italian V4 but it must have Ducati on the tank :roll:

:sing::burn::P

I agree with the emphasis on SPORTS.

My ST used to be my only bike until very recently and it had to do everything. Mostly A & B road twisties with the BHC lads, a few longer runs up to Yorkshire and back in a day, California Superbike School and a few trackdays. It was only panniered up with Mrs Jools on the back about 5% of the time (but I still need it to be able to do that when I want it too). As an all round bike it's excellent.

Don't underate the ST2 for that sort of stuff either guys - they keep up with almost everybody on a ride-out and me and my mate Glyn (who also has an ST2) have held our own in the fast group on trackdays.

Now I've got an 888 to go with the ST2, so that is going to be my true SPORTS bike for dry rideouts and trackdays, but I will say that the ST2 is still going to be my main bike for all year round riding, most of the ride-outs I do and even the occasional track outing. I think it really is that good. In my real word riding the ST doesn't have the top end of a four valver, but the wave of torque that surges you from corner to corner is addictive and doesn't lose out much to bikes that are more powerful - except on the longest straights.

"In my real world riding the ST doesn't have the top end of a four valver, but the wave of torque that surges you from corner to corner is addictive and doesn't lose out much to bikes that are more powerful - except on the longest straights.

You wanted an ST4S you did Jools-which is why I'm keeping mine-loads of torque to surf out of corners and a manic top end if you let it rev-perfect.:D

John:devil:

Actually, if my piggy bank can stand another raid next year I have a cunning plan involving an ST4S....