Reg/Rec or dodge Bat? How do I confirm which is Knackered?
 

The SP battery has been failing to hold its charge since the winter break when installed and run on the bike.

I have had the battery on charge all winter on an optimate type charger, and when first installed on the bike all is well...it turns it over real quick as expected.

However, within a 30 minute ride (even with the lights off) the bat is flat, with not enough juice to turn the engine over to start it again.

So...how do I figure out if the problem is with the battery that may be just plain 'ol knackered, or the reg/rec that is shagged and not providing the charge needed...or A N Other reason?

I have a Digimultimeter and I'm ready to investigate...so what should I be measuring and where/when to identify the culprit?

Cheers

Hello Harv748.

I found this post very helpful.

http://www.ducatisportingclub.com/xm...d.php?tid=2042

regards

TopiToo

Cheers Steve...

I have already replaced the wires for heavier guage stuff, and I know the connecting block etc is all fine, they have been replaced with better bullet type connectors...so I know its not a wiring issue.

I'm interested in what voltage reading I should be getting from the baterry/connectors with the engine on/off/revving etc., and how this will help me identify what component is buggered, rather than splashing out on a new reg or bat if one or the other is OK.

14Volts @ 3K - I think

Anywhere between about 13.8 and 14.4v is generally ok. The easiest test is to turn your lights on at idle and rev the motor. they should get brighter.

If you can get your hands on a clamp-on ammeter you will be able to measure whether or not the battery is receiving a charge or discharging when running. Don't try connecting a normal meter inline and then starting the bike - you'll knacker the meter.

if the battery is receiving a charge from the optimate and can start the bike without too much trouble then the chances are that it is ok. it seems like that it's not receiving a charge from the regulator/rectifier when the bike is being ridden.

What's the reading across the battery terminals with the engine off? Should be well over 12V. Ideally 12.5-12.8. Engine running around 14V as Jools says. Even at idle it should be getting up over 13V.

But never more than 14.5V at any engine speed.

Harv, I finally changed my Reg/Rec after suffering from drained battery trouble. I would go out on a 40 miler and find battery flat. Convinced when I put a meter across the battery and found 13.25v at 3000rmp put the lights on and found it dropped to 12.20v ,that not enough to charge the battery. On fitting new reg it then showed 13.60v even when the lights were on. I have the newer three yellow wired reg/rec 2001 with the newer Altonator my bike is originally a 1998 model. Just under £80 from On Yer Bike Aylesbury. 4D

I bought one of these a little while back:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Regulator-Rect...temZ7985706995

£69.33

OK...fited new reg/rec today as I was convinced mine had packed up...not so apparently, still no charge when the engine is running.

So the story so far is:

Battery seems to be OK as it will quite happily charge on the optimate and once charged will crank the bike over no problem at all.

Reading accross the terminals when fully charged is about 12.5V.

Start the bike and the reading stays at about 12V, but does drop on turning on the lights etc, and will continue to drop if the bike is stopped and started a few times.

Clearly it is not being charged when the bike is running, the highest reading I get is the 12.5 when itys fully charged...certainly not getting anywhere near 13+V

Checked the fuse in the fuse box...OK...are there any others?

Checked the wiring back from the reg/rec to the other side of the bike...all appears OK.

Any other ideas...I'm starting to get a bit peeved with it now...I wanna go ride!!!

[Edited on 15-4-2006 by Harv748]

are you sure nothing is amiss under the crank case cover ?

Is it coz it's 2 feet under water???

:lol::lol::lol:

Right now I'm tempted to take it to the same place as the DR and drown it!!!:lol::mad:

I'm starting to think thats all it can be...

How can I test simply if I am getting any voltage from the windings etc...can I put a meter across the two wires from the stator whilst the engine is running? What kind of reading should I get if i did? Is this likely to kill me?

[Edited on 15-4-2006 by Harv748]

in short I don't know.
it should be kicking out something.
but like you I don't know if it will give you a jab or blow your tester ?
maybe ask Nelly.
that would be my next step though.
sounds like your not getting anything and if you have just replaced the rectifier then under that cover is the next port of call.
good luck

Harv ,If you do that you must switch the meter to AC. You can get up to 110v AC (thats for bikes after 1999 Before that its 130v . Tap into one of the Yellow wires with the meter (Pos) and earth the other Neg from meter onto the bike frame . Should get some reading if its working. Plug your tester on Onms plug into the yellow wires and it should be inbetween 02-04 ohms Electrics are the arse to fathom some times. Because you may need the battery off to get at the wires you may have to rig an extension from the battery to the main battery cables.



[Edited on 15-4-2006 by Fordie]

Bump...any other input on this one before I chuck the thing in the frigggin' skip?:flame:

Make sure the alternator fuse is OK. That's the big (30A?) one in a little holder on the front of the battery, near the starter solenoid.

sounds like the Alternator to me - I had the same on my 748 - you can put a meter across the leads from the Alternator to check it - ask Nelly or someone technical.

I did this and it was shagged!

Bought one off the internet - half price and brand new!

Khushy

How did you do that measurment Khush?

Was it as Fordie describes above?

I'm just a bit worried about either shagging the electrics by doing something stupid myself or electricuting myself!

The big 30 A fuse is OK...

[Edited on 18-4-2006 by Harv748]

Firstly check that the 30A fuse between the charging system and the battery hasn't blown. If that's OK disconnect the yellow alternator wires and check the ouput.
If you have a 2 wire (single phase) alternator connect your meter, set for AC volts across the 2 wires and start the bike. You should get approx 15V per 1000rpm. ie 45V at 3000rpm etc.
If it is a 3-wire (3-phase) alternator connect the meter across any 2 wires and start the bike. Again you should get an AC reading, I don't know the figures to expect but I would think maybe 10V per 1000rpm. Then disconnect ONE meter wire and move it to the other alternator wire. You should get a similar output as the first pair. Finally move the OTHER meter wire back to the first alternator wire. Once again you should see a similar output.
If all 3 phases produce the same or very nearly the same output then the alternator is OK. If any one phase produces significantly less than the others then it is duff.
Finally whether a single phase or a 3 phase NONE of the windings should make a connection to earth.
I don't know if any of the above makes sense to you but I'm happy to explain further if needed.

Mine has two wires so is single pahse I guess.

Ok Derek...with you on that until the last bit...How do I test for the Earthing out you mention?

it was a simple (I think) open circuit means its shagged and a resistance reading means its ok - or something like that - ask Nelly - he is the one who provides technical advice - but not here - which is strange!!!

Khushy

[Edited on 18-4-2006 by khushy]

Harv,
With the alternator wires disconnected, set your meter to read resistance (ohms) and connect one lead to a good earth point on the frame and the other to each of the yellow alternator leads in turn. Do NOT run the engine. None of them should show any ohms to earth.
If you got no volts out of the alternator at all when you tested it you could also connect the meter across the 2 yellow wires and measure the resistance. There should be a fairly low resistance of maybe 4 or 5 ohms. If there is zero ohms then the windings are short circuit, so no output. If you get infinite resistance the the stator is open circuit, also with no output.
Hope this helps.

Derek

and the above means . . . . . ????

Khushy

LOL

OK just tested across the two yellow wires and was getting approx 40V at 3000rpm and greater (upto 80+ when at 6000rpm) when revved...so I'm assuming this is OK now.

So I guess its a case of checking the connectors etc again.

As I do the majority of my maintenace myself, I may bypass the connectors this time and just solder all of the joins.

Other than that I guess the bat could be at fault, althoug it does take and hold a charge from my optimate type charger?

"Other than that I guess the bat could be at fault . . ."

if you have a bat - maybe it only works at night!

Khushy

:o

Harv, if you are getting all the power into the Reg/Rec,then it may be one of the wires leading out of it. Heading of to the various loom electrics. May be a cracked or pinched wire Especially if you have replaced the Reg/Rec. 4D

[Edited on 18-4-2006 by Fordie]

www.electrosport.com
Theres a step by step fault finding section that you can print off.

HarvI wonder if you have you got some load pulling the battery volts down when running, such as the fuel pump or ignition system or even a trapped wire giving a low resistance patch to earth, most of your checks seem to say things are OK all except the battery volts when running which you should be seeing around 13 volts, which it should be able to maintain even with the lights on when over a couple of thousand revs.

OK Harv, You've confirmed that alternator is OK and since you are sure of the wires we can be fairly certain that the AC volts are getting to the regulator. So lets start looking at the alternator output.
Once again set the meter to read ohms, this time connect one lead to the battery positive and connect the other to the red lead from the regulator. No need to run the engine. You should get a reading of 0 ohms on the meter (or as near as damn it) This indicates that there is a good connection between the battery and the regulator. If you don't get 0 ohms you should be looking for a break in the circuit somewhere. The only thing between the regulator and the battery is the 30A fuse. Is the fuse OK? Check it's blades and the fuseholder for corrosion. This can lead to high resistance and a poor connection. Similarly check the connections at the regulator and the battery. If these are all OK thne look for a break in the cable.
If the connection between the regulator checks out OK then that only leaves 2 possiblities. The new regulator is faulty or the battery is faulty. A faulty battery which doesn't show any increase in volts when the engine is revved would need to be short circuit internally and would get hot at any attempt to charge it. Given that it takes a charge on the optimate and starts the bike OK it can't be that bad. Swapping the battery for another would prove this either way.
I doubt if there is anything on the bike pulling the volts down. The alternator puts out 350 watts - thats nearly 30A at 12V. Anything pulling that amount of power would get red-hot pretty quick.

Cheers guys...I plan to get out there again tonight to check further...

Derek...I will try what you suggest and let you know the score...

I beginning to think it is a wiring/connection issue somewhere, as the wiring loom was removed during the winter when the bike was stripped. Perhaps I have unsettled a dodgey connection around the battery/reg wiring somewhere. Going to strip it all back tonight and start again.

Another thought. I almost forgot - check the earth to the regulator. There should be a short green wire with a solder tag connection to one of the regulator mounting bolts. Make sure it gets a good connection to bare metal. Any paint under it will prevent a connection. You should get continuity between the solder tag and the battery negative.

Wheeey...looks like I could be getting somewhere now.

Checked the reg red to bat pos and got very low (ie 1ohm) reading.

Striped all of the wires back checked all connections. One was dodge so replaced. Cleaned up the earth contact for the connector on the reg. Cleaned the contacts on the bat terminals. Replaced buller connectors on the yellow wires.

Started her up and he presto...13.5V across the bat:roll::sing:

Thanks for all of the advice guys...mucho appreciated.

Bring on the sun:smug:

After the horse has bolted but:
on the 906 paso there was a batch of dodgy earth connections with respect to the regulator. I believe the earth tab was on the wrong bolt or summat like that - anyhow, advice was to disconnect/reconnect the earth and make sure it has good solid connection with frame, and if necessary take separate earth from same connection to the battery.

on the 600 pantah, the sand cast casings gave a problem when the internal mould joints were not sufficiently ground off after casting. The extended joints encroached into the alternator housing just enough to cut through the winding after about 12 months.

[Edited on 19-4-2006 by guest1]

Harv,
I've been on holiday for most of the last week so haven't kept up with what's happening. Good to hear that you got it sorted and that there was nothing seriuos wrong.

...and many thanks for your help with the problem.

Just can't believe you went away like that and left me alone to sort it...next time please OK all leave with me first:sing:

Thanks again.

Well you did get it sorted and must have learnt a bit in the process ;)