Trackday concerns
 

Hi guys, just some thoughts to get a few things off my chest and then your opinions.

I am an experienced track day bod, having now been on over 50 track days, 40 of which in the fast group.
I also have 3 yrs racing experience.
Now i'm defo not saying that im the fastest boy out there by any means but i can hold my own.

On the weekend i was, yet again, completely pollaxed from behind mid way through sears by someone trying to keep up with his 'boyfriend', leaving me with half a dozen cracked ribs and wrecked leathers.

My observation is that more and more race boys are using a track day as pre race prep and more incidents like this are occurring.(This is my 3rd time at being wiped out by another rider)

S**t happens and i know that, but the point is, is that there are a mix of people going as fast as they WANT with people going as fast as they CAN which is a sometimes dangerous combination.

If i race, then i mentally prepare myself to do so. Track days are a different kettle of fish, i DO NOT expect to trade paint, defend my line or have hard moves put on me or for me to put on anyone else!

Snetterton was like nothing i had seen before, it was more a mini race meet than a track day.
EVERYONE had box trailers,warmers,stands,tool boxes, spare wheel trees etc...

Something else i have noticed is that the organisers always say if they notice this sort of thing blah,blah,blah they will send the guy home. On sat it was the only time i have seen, literally 25 people from all groups, rushing up to them complaining and they did bugger all, apart from another speech at lunch.!

I am not about to stop attending track days but am i the only person who has noticed a significant change recently?

Rant over:D

hope youire not too badly hurt...either physically or in the wallet!!

dont do enough to know - done 5, 3 rained off so 2 really, over the last two years..makes me think about not doing any more tho!

Well i did a couple this weekend and although there were a lot of 'racers' out there, the overtakes were fairly straight forward and nice and leisurely.

Even at Oulton there were plently of guys running warmers and race bikes, although that doesn't necessarily mean they are 'racers' just guys who have a bit of extra money to pay for a race bike.

from speaking to a mate who was in fast yesterday, there was nothing like this in the fast group yesterday.

the shift is changing for sure. when i started trackdays you would find a few people with race/track bikes and trailers vans etc. now i would say it is the norm. if a trackday falls conveniently before a meeting at said circuit then a large percentage of people there; in ALL groups will be racers.

im not sure what can be done but something has to be. 3 groups is simply not enought separate out all the abilities.

im not a quick racer or is a 620 monster a quick bike but i have been out in all 3 groups on it.

i beleive i am courteous but probably pass closer or at areas where strictly i shouldnt.

there will be many more incidents until the track companies really do reprimand people for bad riding, and not just a chat at lunch but chucking them off track.

may be trackdays should be run as roadbikes only or track and race bikes allowed. i think it would save alot of problems

That was my only complaint of the day, apart from the fact that the guy didnt have the balls to come up to me and apologise.

The fact that if you preach the rules, back them up when they are broken. There is no point if you rant on in the morning brief about courtesy, and this is a track day etc... if you let them go out and do whatever they like.

I was overtaken on red,yellow and the chequer flag, even on the 3 sighting laps and in session!

Maybe it was a one off because i have never seen anything like it.

I was also overtaken on the 'sighting' laps yesterday... but it was on the power and i was taking it easy warming my tyres.

Racers don't have much choice but to use trackdays as ACU test days are becoming rarer :(

Racers and trackdays don't mix well.

i think you have a good point - trackdays are not cheap and are a day off work and possibly £££ on the damage. trackday companies go on about not making money, cost of insurance etc etc but the problem was too many trying to cash in. i am no TD expert but get really pi££ed when you are told 3 sighting laps no passing on the cool down or red/yellow flag and what happens?? trouble is as paying public we are a bit stumped - if you want to go on a trackday - and i like them as a way of riding my bike faster/safer than on the road then what can you do??????? and yes, more people are getting very serious about it and splashing the cash - that must mean that having invested more money they have to prove a point - scary thought.

Racer, experienced trackdayer, Novice or somewhere in between as long as you ride with respect and a mind for the safety for those in front of you there shouldn't be a problem.

Unfortunately the I'm alright jack mindset sometimes gets on to the track on a track day. Not good.

Sure I've noticed more and more race bikes or wannabee racers at days now but as long as the riders have the "right attitude" that shouldn't be a problem.

Ray.

I think its the fact that, as you say, they are running a business.

And if its close to a race day and the fast group is full, they filter them down into the inters and even novice!

As i am a bit experienced, if someone shoves it up the inside of me, i wont (9 times out of 10) grab any front brake or panic.
For the less experienced fast boys and novice, it must be very intimidating!

Still love doing them though:D

Two responses from me. Four trackdays under my belt so far this month.

1. If a particular organiser is weak we should name and shame them. We can all avoid their days and our Chairman can write to them informing them of our boycott and asking for assurances about safety improvemnts.

2. We should organise more of our own trackdays and we should support them rather than being obliged to go to commercial operators for our trackday fun.

Dave

Dseered,

U2U sent,

Ray.

Ian,

You'll have to excuse my sense of humour bypass on this one 'cos I don't get it?

:puzzled:
:puzzled::puzzled:
:puzzled:

Ray.

Do what we have done on swb book your own track time and sell spaces to your mates ! :cool:

In my experience of trackdays I've seen this kind of thing with a certain organiser, but not with others. Maybe coincidence?

BUT... the first time I went with FE, there was a racer boy allowed out in the final novice session (he'd been in the fast group all day). He made a close pass on a real novice and spooked him into grabbing the brake - result was the novice guy crashed.
The second time I went to a FE day showed, in my opinion, a similar disregard for the group distribution. I was put down to the novice group on sign-in because of overbooking, and when I showed my acu licence and asked if it was a concern to them I was told "don't worry, it won't make your penis any smaller." Make of that what you will!

Nothing even came close to that sort of behavior on days with either no limits nor hottrax.

Maybe there should be an obligation enforced by the insurance that all ACU holders are only permitted in the fast group on a commercial track day? I know that won't SOLVE anything, but surely it's the right direction?

n

p.s. G.W.S ryan

Hmmmmmmm....FE? rings a bell? Not just me then?:D

DCR... I think you should scan and publish your 100 lines when you've done them!

Good Points but....

1) Can we please NOT openly name and shame any organiser as there might well be legal implications for the club, even if you are expressing an opinion - I think complaints of this type need to be taken up directly with the organisers concerned.

I've been on the receiving end of this myself at a TD last year after being cut up a treat by the same person more than once. I was told at the time that the organisers rely to quite some extent on the marshalls looking after the track reporting back as well on the travelling instructors.

I must say though - if someone ever brought me off on a TD (unless there was a DAMN good reason, I'd have serious thoughts about using the same organiser).

2) DSC TD's - More than ever (hopefully !!!) this year, but as I recall there is a financial constraint that they MUST NOT run at a loss - so if enough places are not filled before hand then an event could be cancelled....

Use 'em or lose 'em.

Cheers - Frank

i do worry when it is suggested that people cannot express their own opinions about services / products for fear of being sued

it is a misunderstanding of the power of the law - which is there to promote fairness

for example

if did chains keep snapping on people i have a right to know - similarly if a trackday company didnt act on safety

for the record i did 4 days in cartegena with fe and they were brilliant on all fronts including safety

if i had a problem i would raise it on the day - as soe people did with them and i got the impression they were listened to

one of the points of a community is to share experiences - good or bad surely?

btw should not be just so and so are crap but a factual account of what happened no more no less

People in this club really confuse and irritate me in some ways regarding trackdays...

Lots complain about this organiser and that one... but then people still use them. Personally the day at Oulton with FE was superb once again and i've never yet had a problem with them.

But back on topic.... 2 of the DSC days were cancelled this year... I was the only person on Phil Bevans trackday from DSC (another DSC supporter) and No Limits are not seeming the choice de riguer for all DSC members.

You have to ask, WHY ? If you the 'rider' is so worried about certain companies, why are YOU not supporting the ones that are backed and back in return DSC ?

Agree with you weeksy, but from my perspective...


I don't use one tdo any more.


My first point of call is no limits who offer a lot of support to the dsc.

Good stuff... but you're more of the exception than the rule...

Being honest, i'm one of the worst for it and have only used No Limits once for the DSC morning at Snett...

I go straight to FE's site when we're looking for TD's or if Bevan did more would be straight to him and Alan....

Why ? it's convenient... it's well organised... and it's stood me in good stead for 3 years through several Admin staff.

Sorry Frank but I'd have to disagree. If a customer of any product or service likely to be used by other club members is justifiably dissatisfied then this is exactly the place to bring it up.

Track days are especially important as there is potential injury/loss of life involved and many of the club members use them regularly. If a member has been battered on track, and the organiser has chosen to do nothing despite a complaint, then they should be bought to the attention of the members.

I agree completely that the best way to enjoy track time is with the DSC, but the reality is that the dates/price/location don't always suit all members at that time, so folk are always going to use other organisers, and the club has an obligation to warn them of those other members have suffered with.

The trend from road bikes to track/race bikes is worrying but to be expected as we get taxed/hunted off the road. More and more people are chosing to only ride on TDs, so it's ever more important that people do use this forum to give an opinion or relate an experience.

As loverobot says, the law is there to promote fairness, not to provide a big stick for TD organisers to hit disgruntled punters with. If you've been knocked off your bike on a TD and the organiser has done bugger all about it then shout it from the roof tops before another member gets similar treatment. If, however, you were the victim of close pass or some paint swapping and didn't say anything to the organiser then there's not much they could've done about it so don't come on here and say they're rubbish!

Unfortunately it sounds like Ryan was hit before he could of said anything to the organiser, but some sympathy from the organiser and the banning of the offending rider (as commercially as insane as that might seem) would have gone a long way. In a few years time these companies will only have their reputation to trade on, mostly because they all offer a near-identical service, and those with a reputation for recklessness will suffer in much the same was as you'd think twice about booking a flight with aeroflot!

Cheers,

Ali

I should say that this post was meant as an opinion on the future trend of track days, not an open bashing of any particular track day company.

This said however, as Ali mentioned, we are there for fun only but it is still a potentially lethal hobby.

My incident was completely avoidable and very dangerous (even the marshall complained).
I am not one to complain, i would normally take my complaint directly to the individual.

However, on this occasion i decided that it was far too serious a matter and felt that if something was not done, someone else could get seriously hurt.

There were no experienced instructors on the day as they were all abroad on a foreign track week.

As mentioned before, it has been the only time in my experience where they were awash with complaining customers and all that happened was a general ticking off in the form of another speech at lunchtime.

I like this organiser a lot, the guys are very friendly and helpful and i have never had reason to be concerned before.
But on this occasion they fell dangerously short of the mark!

The only point i would like to make is a general observation that track days need to be more strictly regulated or the morons will ruin it for everyone!

Phil Bevans day had 9 dedicated instructors... (+ a couple of spares..)

each session there were 5-6 out on track at all times... (amazingly apart from in fast, they were not racing at all... just helping out).

Cadwell Park, 21st, 22nd August, 21st Ducati only, 22nd club members with any bike-use them or lose them guys-they are filling up.

John

I've done days in England and days abroad. The days in England seem to be characterised by "the bloke with the scarey eyes" who emerges from his van with a manic laugh and then proceeds to endanger everyone out there. At the end of the session his disappears back into his van...

OTOH on the continent the attitude seems to be "after you, Claude". I know which I prefer! I've always put it down to the "social" side of days abroad - you all stay in the same hotel and drink together and the anti-social riders just don't seem to attend.

Perhaps you've got tales of terrible riding abroad that you can tell to disprove my theory...

Ryan,

Hope you are not too bashed about and you and bike will recover soon.

My opinion regarding the above quote and Weeksy's and others' opinions - although I have my reservations regarding certain organisers and would use 100PC where possible, FE seem to have a monopoly at Brands. This is a major disadvantage to me as BH is my "local" and I have little choice - either FE or nobody!

If a TDO grows and expands rapidly in a short time, it would make sense to also grow the amount of staff/instructors to ensure standards and safety levels are maintained.

RX

not for me.

not with all those DD lunatics screaming around the place.:D

You're not going to do the DSC days at Cadwell?

:o !

That'll be fairly hard as they went bump last year after owing MSV quite a considerable sum of money.... allegedly

Sorry. must disagree, just got back from doing a track day at Oscherslaben in Germany, probably the worst organised track day I have ever seen:mad: there was total nutters in all four groups, club racers & National riders, Dark Dog Kwak 600 team to name but one. Even when one member of our group who was in group 1 complained that they had been clipped in a corner, the organiser was not bothered, just gave them there money back & said off you go:mad:
It was the first time I have felt intimidated even in group 3, & as an ex club racer I would not call my self slow, but even I bailed out of the last session (as it was a free for all ) when some local racer on a Duke as well, brushed my left leg with his as I peeled into a right hander, & I was close to the edge of the track.
Apart from that it was a fantasic day, many thanks to my brother Paul ( Bionicle) for organising it & letting me use his new track day bike (ex 996 race bike).:D


Chris.:burn:

I was shocked at Iconic 944s response to my post. This is a an internet form primarily for the purpose of sharing information about our biking experiences/knowledge. As such if one of us has a bad experience and that experience becomes a trend (i.e a number of us are having a particular problem with any given dealer/trackday organizer) we should absolutely name and shame the organisation involved. Our Clubs primary responsibility is to protect its members not the reputaion of commercial trackday suppliers.

If there is any doubt about our ability to express this information I would be grateful if you (or the relevant member of MT) could post the legal advice we have been given about hosts responsibilities for internet forum content on the members section of the site.

If such advice is not available can I ask that you say so, such that we may continue to share our biking experiences freely and without the concern that we might be bringing our club into disrepute.

Put more plainly I think your legal advice is non existent or wrong. I am quite happy to be proved wrong and will apologise in advance if I am. But if I'm not I think we should not be subject to tacit censorship on this Board.

Dave

I was shocked at Iconic 944s response to my post. This is a an internet form primarily for the purpose of sharing information about our biking experiences/knowledge. As such if one of us has a bad experience and that experience becomes a trend (i.e a number of us are having a particular problem with any given dealer/trackday organizer) we should absolutely name and shame the organisation involved. Our Clubs primary responsibility is to protect its members not the reputaion of commercial trackday suppliers.

If there is any doubt about our ability to express this information I would be grateful if you (or the relevant member of MT) could post the legal advice we have been given about hosts responsibilities for internet forum content on the members section of the site.

If such advice is not available can I ask that you say so, such that we may continue to share our biking experiences freely and without the concern that we might be bringing our club into disrepute.

Put more plainly I think your legal advice is non existent or wrong. I am quite happy to be proved wrong and will apologise in advance if I am. But if I'm not I think we should not be subject to tacit censorship on this Board.

Dave

Oooops...I meant "No Limits"........not 100PC!!
RX

I was clipped in the nivice at cadwell last year..nearly collected at the bottom of the mountain too....on a DSC day....didnt do another trackday...so its no news to me that there are peolpe willing to take a risk and spoil other riders fun!!!:mad:

Now this is where it gets confusing....

did you ask them afterwards ? there's a HUGE difference between dangerous and 'mistake'

ask AK, he was behind me when I was tagged on the leg....good job I couldnt find them really coz incandescent and rage come to mind, completely lost it when I got back in pits and had a look round paddock, couldnt spot which ducati leathers on a day full of ducati leathers...!!

oh, and Kelly cut thru the inside at the bottom of the mountain and it was no problem, nice & clean altho close, so it wasnt the act of being overtaken which I threw toys out over