Brake upgrades and whether they are worth it ?
 

Well today was the first ride out on the new Brembo P34's....

Didn't notice an ounce of difference.... (apart from being a lot prettier :) ).

Bite was the same, feel was the same...

Don't know if it would feeling improved on trackday/raceday or not at this stage... but for normal road riding, i couldn't notice a thing over the standard 2 pad calipers.

What master cylinder are you using? the original one?:frog:

Yep, but this isn't a MC debate... it's a caliper debate ?

unless we're thinking that the P34's with a Brembo MC would work better than P4's with a Brembo MC ?

I'm 100% convinced fitting a Brembo MC would improve things.... but surely equally on both ?

Oh how blind........its a size thing!:D if youve got your std m/cylinder that was designed to move enough fluid to actuate you std 2 pot callipers..........then asking it to work with 4 pot ones........and expect an improvement is pushing it to say the least.

Obviously your the educated one (picking me up on my spelling) :lol::lol: do the maths!

What and you have bedded the already used sintered pads from different discs into your original used discs already.

Dunno really mate to be honest.... they are still obviously fairly 'new' in there... did a 35 mile ride up to now on them... but not a huge amount of braking.... but 5-6 decent stops....

Could well be a bedding in type scenario yeah.

Ummm...isn't the std master cylinder on a 916 a Brembo and aren't the standard calipers 4-potters? If so, then the std master cylinder should be fine imo. FWIW I have never noticed a deficiency in the std Goldline calipers for road or track use. I would recommend better fluid, better levers (with less slack and wobble in them), pads (Performance Friction), discs (cast-iron floaters) and brake lines for track use though.

Calipers would be the last thing I changed.

i was under the impression the MC on the 748R etc (P34's as standard) was the same as mine now ?

Is the R MC better then ?

prettier though TW ;) much prettier :)

Rated by Simon Knowlson as one of the best upgrades he carried out to his 748RS over the winter and that was before he had taken a win and 2nd place in the NG F600 championships on a 6 year old bike.
I find the P34s on my 998 Hybrid have a lot more bite than the P4s on my 996 and they both use identical Brembo Radial M/Cyls

Yeah...prettier but of no use if the money doesn't deliver extra performance ;)

The brakes on my 800ss are absolutely stupendous - using std calipers with iron floaters, CRG levers (now these are TRICK) separate twin lines.

just checked on parts lists. the 2 pad m/cyl is 624.4.012.1A

and the 4 pad master cylinder is 624.4.016.1A......................

..and the acid test is... do you stop quicker...well for the track it is.

Road use is debatable - we can disappear up our own arses at times with bling.

not goingto get too involved as i know jack all about brakes etc but i do know you make up time on the throttle not on the brakes. FACT

i put some p4-34 callipers on to my vfr400............i used a monster m/cylinder............now i know they work better than the original 2 pad nissin things.................

but not as good as my radial 4 pads on the 999r, and no where near as good as it with the now 19x18 radial brembo master cylinder.

and sometimes too much on throttle..................cos your brakes wernt good enough at the end of the straight..........where was the battle won at Monza?

dunno i was racing at assen :D

yeah good point but anyone looking to go faster really needent worry about their brakes initially.

I had standard 4 pot goldlines on my ST with a set of bendix pads and they were excellent brakes, loads of feel and lots of stopping power.

Then I got seduced by the bling fairy and fell for a set of P34 stoppers that were on eBay dead cheap. I cleaned them up, put them straight on (the pads had plenty of meat on them) bled them through and went for a ride.

The brakes felt awful. Wooden, no feel and far less effective than my original brakes and they stayed that way for the first 100-150 miles.

Then the pads (standard brembo ones) bedded in and the brakes suddenly became awesome. I finally understood why everyone raved about them because they are unbelievably powerful but with huge amounts of feel as well, almost as if you can feel every last drop of braking power and you can tell exactly when the wheel is about to lock. You can do all this with two finger braking (my preference) and a nice firm lever using the standard master cylinder, so I would say ride it a bit more and I'd be surprised if pretty soon you don't find yourself saying "jeez, these brakes are awesome".

BTW: I disagree with Dickie, I find that if I've got total confidence on the brakes I can use a much, much deeper braking marker and keep the throttle pinned for longer

i've got a nice little ride home from here this afternoon, taking in a bit of a scenic route too... i'll keep you chaps posted.

you will make up time by braking later but in comparison to getting on the throttle early and carrying it through a fast section it is tiny by comparison. we are talking tenths of seconds compared to seconds.

Indeed.

Steve,

I fitted 4 Pad P34's to my bike last year - with single s/s brake lines. At first I had the same impression as you...why did I bother, these are the same (or even, worse) than the 2 pads I just removed.
That, however was with the pads that came with the s/h calipers.
I then bought some Carbone Lorraine SBK3's and the difference was AWSOME!

So I recommend junking the s/h pads and putting in some nice new SBK3's....

Richard

Exactly.

Braking very late and hard will help you pass people, but is likely to actually have a negative impact on your laptime as when you're braking really hard your field of vision narrows and you are less likely to turn your attention to the apex etc early enough and therefore lose some corner entry speed. Not to mention the fact that you're probably gripping the bars in a vice-like death grip and not allowing the front suspension to do its job properly.

This is of course unless you have plenty of experience doing this and can overcome your subconscious survival reactions.

This year I've raced with the 4 pad calipers and the 2 pad calipers - the 4 pads have more power for sure.

I've got P34 callipers on my 748 with the stock m/c, and the braking difference is immediately apparent, no doubt about it (road use only).

Of course I had new pads (and, indeed, discs) at the same time.

[Edited on 10-5-2006 by moto748]

Isnt it the one in front that wins........not the fastest?..............oh learned one!................or are we stuck in Dickies everyone loves everyone mode?:D:devil:

[Edited on 10-5-2006 by andyb]

Umm ... well, obviously! But clearly that wasn't the topic of conversation!

A discussion on racecraft would go a lot differently I'm sure. Dom's the one to ask, I've never been in 1st position in a race.

isnt when to brake and when to get on the throttle race craft then?

Isn't Weeksy using his bike on the road? ;)

WTF does he want gucci brakes for then? Is he turning into a bling monster then............:lol::lol::lol:

[Edited on 10-5-2006 by andyb]

I dunno. He's selling the Ohlins so your guess is as good as mine. Unless he's putting something better on. :borg:

As is big balls and staying on (not directed at TP by the way). :o

So after visiting the brembo fairy.......note- visit the big balls fairy too!!:lol::lol:

Nope - that's not racecraft - that's operating the motorcycle.

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: :lol::lol:

Ohlins was sold through lack of funds.... Showa is staying on till i can afford it.

Blimey...anyone would think you're a CSS instructor or something :D

Actually, what I have managed to do quite well on road and track is put the CSS techniques into practise when I'm on the brakes, and I try and brake smoothly but firmly, even very hard, all the way up to my 'brakes off' marker which is usually just a tad before my turn in point.

I always use two fingers to brake and I can blip the throttle on downchanges (without changing braking pressure) while braking as well, so slowing the bike and getting into the right cog for the drive through the bend is usually a very smooth process for me. I've worked hard at gripping the tank with my knees so I usually take all the braking 'G' using my thighs and lower back and I only need to hold the bars lightly.

As soon as I'm off the brakes I wait a split second to lett the suspension settle and wind the throttle on as soon as I tip it in (not sure how you can get on it any earlier) and wind it on as progressively as I can for any given track condition.

I don't trail brake - don't trust myself feathering the brake while cranked over - I get all my braking and gear shifting done in a straight line.

So what I try to do is brake hard and late (without rushing the corner) AND get on the gas early. I'm probably dog slow compared to racers but I think I've got the technique about right (never perfect, there's always room for improvement) it's just the size of me nads that slows me down.

So outbraking someone isnt race craft?..........best tell bayliss that about monza then...............first bend after long straight.

operating the motorcycle is pulling the lever!!.........trust me! ill show you my qualifications if you show me yours...........

Got P34 calipers on my 748-996sps hybrid with radial master cylinder and it transformed the front end braking.

True one finger braking.:cool:

DC:roll:

Simply having a braking marker isn't racecraft - choosing to push it back to complete an overtaking move is. Planning overtakes, race strategy etc - racecraft. Turning the bike or having a braking marker - just lapping a circuit.

See the difference yet? ;)

That's excellent - you're overcoming the survival reactions consciously and reaping the benefits. The school was worth it then?