Ducati owners to blame for Ducati\'s financial woes ?
 

Having recently bought a 999 it has surprised me how many owners of the old shape bike will never buy the new one despite it being a better bike.
Ducati desperately need sales and have produced a better bike yet the owners of the old bikes won't buy new because in their eyes the old looks better, their sheer vanity may even seal the fate of Ducati, is this loyalty ?

Just an observation of mine from a few days ownership. Good news for Ducati is the bike is bloody brilliant and dare I say it full of character the likes none of my Japanese bikes have :)

I'm glad you're enjoying your new bike, but what experience are you basing that bald judgement on?

How many miles on both types of bike? How much maintenance on both?




I know you didn't mean it seriously... at least, I assume so...

It doesn't matter how good a bike is. I've got to like the look of it before I'll consider owning it. I personally don't like the xx9 at all.

Personally I like the harder less user-friendly edge of the older 4-valve bikes. The 749/999 are a bit too soft for me....and I'm not even gonna mention the looks! ;)

Something else that cropped up at the weekend when chatting to Gizmo and Scotty up at Hartside was that the later bikes are way overpriced when you compare them against residuals - it's financial suicide to buy a new one now unless you keep it umpteen years cos the depreciation is horrific. You can possibly take a 50% depreciation on a £6-7k bike over 3 years but, on something costing over £11k??? No thanks!

I believe it would be NON - Ducati owners that are to blame for Ducatis financial woes !

:puzzled:

Doesn't loyalty work both ways, no sooner do they bring out the 998 with the Testastretta engine then they remove it from sale.
When was the last time Ducati marketed a bike for only a year, was this in fact a ploy to force those looking to buy a new Ducati on to the 999.

And where has the low seat hight model gone, the early Monsters offered shorter riders a chance to own a Ducati, these were replaced with heavier higher machines.

maybe Ducati should look at their own market research department and ask a few questions.

Who said anything about loyalty?

I like a bike, I buy it.

Gotta agree with you there, and not just the ergonomics either - I've ridden 996 and 998 back-to-back and the testastretta engine is too refined for me.

love mine. :D

Define "better" ? What is better about a 999 over a 998? The public decides.

Tim

Thing is no firm can stay succesfull by standing still, they all have to release
new models, one thing is for sure ducati will not go back to the old shape
the new shape is here to stay.
May be ducati should have developed the 916 from day one changing a little bit each year like Honda did with VFR but better.I hope that is what they will do with the 749,999's
But then who knows , I don't , do you?

here we go:roll:

Perhaps they should buy their Designers Glasses first then they might build something that looks good !

The other problems that I see are

1 Price
2 Service costs
3 Reliability problems

My next bike will be a Rice rockett !

:(:(:(:(:(

I wish it was another duke but my bank balance won't take another Duke hit

Age

spot on mate

I heard that there's a very fast Suzuki for sale locally :lol::lol::lol:

:lol::lol:

Not that one tho Dom :(

When I wanted my first Ducati in 2002 I decided the safest thing to do was buy a new one. I've now owned 5 and I have realised that when you know what you're looking for a Ducati doesn't have to be new, you just have to know what you're buying and how to look after it.

I don't like the 999 shape, that's my perogative however I'm not alone and the 749/999 series has seriously hurt Ducati finacially - look at the figures, these bikes are the most profitable in the range and they don't sell. Ducati sold almost 700 of the 996 in 1999 in the UK and only 145 of the 999 in 2004.

If the 999 replacement gets the collective juices going again then I know many folk who will be ordering one come this autumn. If that happens the value of 999s will drop through the floor and a lot of people will buy one because they are such good value. Everyone wins if Ducati get it right.

Follow Porche's example with the 911 Mr Minoli and reinvent the 916, with a 1200 L twin engine producing 170bhp to really challenge the GSXRs and you will create a renaissance :eureka:

I have to admit I didn't like my 999R as much as I did until I saw one in race trim. For every ounce of ugliness it shows in road form, it totally differs when it's fashioned in track bodywork. I think I remember Neil McKenzie saying something very similar about the Airwaves 999's when they first turned up on the scene in BSB. Through all the efforts of trying to sell it, I guess I've not been helping the cause at all. So now I'm going to keep it and get some track bodywork for it, let the world see what a 999 shape should really look like. Either way I think the debate over Ducati fashion doesn't matter, as long as it's Italian and not mainstream. I popped over to Matlock Bath at the weekend and despite the rain there was plenty of bikes out. However there wasn't one Ducati there, all Harley Davidson and Japanese 4's. Not even a Japanese twin.

:sing:

[Edited on 15-5-2006 by desmobob]

In reality they could make the parts cheaper and the servicing better then you could spend more money on your bike and do more miles !

I'm now in the same boat mate. Wanted a Duc since I got into bikes 15 years ago and always said they were too expensive etc, servicing etc, etc.

I brought a new '04 749S for NZ$28,000 + Termi $3,500 and finance costs etc came to NZ$34,000 odd two years ago. Trade in value now would be about $17,000 or $20,000 private sale. I've taken a kick in the pocket of approx $7,000 - $8,000 per annum. This excludes servicing, consumables and insurance of around $2,500 per annum.

The secound hand value has not been helped by the number of muppets importing Duc's for Japan that are due for the 2 year services and flicking them off around 15-20% less than the market value.

Now here's the painful part. I would like a '05 999S which are selling for around $34,000 second hand so I need to fork out between $14,000 - $17,000 (Could buy a new '05 Suzuki GSXR1000 K5 for that and keep the Duc!).

If I traded the 749 in on a '06 R1 it would cost me $4,000 to change stables. If I then trade the R1 in for an '08 model in couple of years I'd get around $13,000 as a trade in. Approximate cost per annum $4,000 or half the cost of the Duc. Servicing and insurance would also be cheaper.

I need to keep the 749 for another 3 years or so just to make to make the Duc $$$$ work with the wife. The above costs work against Ducati' in terms of turnover and cashflow.

At the end of the day my Ducati's more expensive than I ever though it would be. While cost and value are obviously different I'm struggling to realise the value of the Duc in this light. Anyone else in the same boat?


[Edited on 16-5-2006 by sbwells]

Lets face it,Ducati's have always been expensive,...to buy and to keep running.Blimey an 851 Strada cost £10,500 in 1992!My 916 was six months old and cost me £11,750 in '94.Compare that to the latest Japanese Superbikes,..you can buy the latest CBR,ZX,GSXR,etc for around £9000.What Ducati Superbike can you buy new for around the same price?
The base model 749,.....go figure.
I think one of Ducati's problem is they are making too many bikes and the quality is suffering because of it.Imagine how a new Ducati owner feels when all the paint falls off his 1000DS motor or the owner of the 999 that wont start because the neutral light connection has fallen off.
I recently borrowed a Sport Classic and the joins around the engine casing were appaling.Silicone gasket goo had squeezed out of the joint and then wiped off badly with a finger.The goo was also smeared around the crankcase.That to me is just not good enough.You can buy a brand new Chinese 125 off Ebay for under a grand with a better finish than that.
To justify the prices,I think Ducati ought to make fewer bikes of a better quality.Make them more special and exclusive if you like.
AK is also spot on about the seat height.My wife could easily reach the floor while sat on the 888 framed Monster or the carbed SS.She has got no chance on the latest bikes.I think that Ducati need to keep the SS range alive.At the moment,only the 1000DS is available in the UK.A lower and lighter bike with the 1000DS motor along the lines of the NCR bike would be good.620(695?) and 800cc versions could also be made.
I kinda hope the new 1200cc (rumoured to be nearer 1100) bike is styled like that MCN mock up.Imagine all the 749/999 owners saying,'ooh its not as pretty as the old bike' or 'Please Mr.Ducati make a new version of the 999!':lol::lol::lol::frog:

[Edited on 16-5-2006 by KeefyB]

I have to say that I am struggling a bit. I love Ducatis without a doubt but I really don't like the shape of the 999... until it's in race trim when I think it looks stunning, i guess it must be the mirrors :puzzled:

But as said above the hit on buying new is too much to take, it's hard enough on a second hand bike, but i can't face it on a new one.

I had almost decided I was going to bite the bullet and buy a 999r until some daft bugger went and crashed it :o and now I am back to considering something that I don't have to pay much attention to and the servicing is cheap and easy :(

how many bikes can you buy that you could put bayliss or lanzi on and hardly tell the difference between it and the factory bikes look at pedros picture (great that mate) no one says bayliss bike looks ugly i think its the best looking bike on the grid and i love mine:D:D:D:D

Blade, Gixxer Thou, ZX10. Ther race bikes look the same :puzzled:

The value thing is simple. Once upon a time I didn't mind paying >£10k for something that was special and didn't depreciate hugely. Now they are less special, they depreciate hugely and I do mind paying >£10k for that.

If i want a 749/999 now then I'll go the route CC took - low miles, 2-3yrs old, letting someone else take the huge depreciation hit and taking it for servicing to a good small independent. The trouble is that it does not help Ducati at all. But, what would you expect me to do? I'm not a charity of a mug.

[Edited on 16-5-2006 by twpd]

[Edited on 16-5-2006 by twpd]

That's what I'm talking about boys and girls

Being Ducati enthusiasts does not make us responsible for the future financial success of the brand. Look at Yamaha who lost ground with the '03 R6 because for whatever reason, it could not compete with the other 600s which were either faster or looked better in most peoples eyes. Now they have the best selling 600 because as ever, the market decides that the bike is gorgeous and is fast enough. It's up to manufacturers to compete with each other and launch products which sell. Ducati must realise that the 999 is not a winner. It just doesn't have that "wow" factor. The 916 shape still looks beautiful to me but I love riding my 749s. It's a bike which does it all for me and every time I get off it, I have a smile on my face.

Hypermotard
 

There is one Ducati that I would consider buying new as a stablemate for my 996SPS - this one. However, I don't think it will have the mass appeal necessary to revive the company's fortunes.

and those headlights :o

[Edited on 16-5-2006 by david.hicks]

The company has lived off Monsters for a long time. I didn't realise that there had been some significant changes - if as has been said they made them taller and heavier, thereby reducing the appeal, then that isn't a very bright thing. Is it?

I do think the model ranges are confusing too....Darks, Bips, S, R ...blah...blah... blah. And if I had bought a 999R in 2003 or 2004 then I wouldn't have been very happy to find it become an S the next year - talkabout crapping on your customer base!

Back in the good old day it was Bip or SP :)

I really can't believe that 3 (or is it 4) years on from the introduction of the 999 the debate about the 916 shaped bikes being better is still droning on. God it's boring.

Ducati owners are not to blame for Ducati's financial woes, only the Ducati management team are responsible for that.

People report that the 999 shape isn't selling as well as the old bike but that overlooks the fact that most of Europe is in recession and in the UK (and the US) the financial community is now very worried that personal borrowing is at an all time high. When people are mortgaged up to the hilt and credit cards are bouncing off their limit there are no bikes today that are selling as well as they were a few years ago - you only have to look at the number of dealers that have gone under to see that, not just Ducati dealers but Jap dealers as well.

The other thing that the simplistic "Ducati are in trouble and it's all the 999's fault" arguement fails to recognise is that it's only in the sportsbike obsessed UK that that arguement may have any validity. Elsewhere it's always been recognised that the Monster has always been Ducati's biggest seller, even in the 916/996 glory years and lately the Multistrada has been the biggest seller in France and Germany. Not surprisingly, other manufacturers have seen the success of those bikes and climbed on the bandwagon. Whereas a few years ago if you wanted a bike like a Monster, you bought a Monster 'cos it was pretty much on it's own as a soulful Italian naked. Now you've got Benelli, MV, Moto Morini, Aprillia all wanting a slice of market share to name a few. And the Multistrada has got new competition from KTM, BMW's have even got a bit funky and the Japanese are falling over themselves to get into that 'do anything' niche.

Selling motorcycles is a tough market with intense competition as the customer pool dries up and Ducati are on the receiving end with less resources to fall back on than the Japanese manufacturers - whose motorcycle divisions are all at the tip of a industrial conglomerate iceberg.

I don't have the answer. If I did, I'd be in the marketing department of a major bike manufacturer earning big bucks for going on press days on exotic sunny racetracks instead of being behind this desk

I'd like one of them - but if they are the same height as the last 2 years Monster range, then I'll still have to keep my existing monster:( (which I do love, but equally love the looks of the proposed HM) and NO Ducati - I dont want the smaller engined version:devil:

Maybe Ducati should check as to how many DP lowered seats they are now having to sell for the Monster range (or check the forums as to how many have to get the existing cut down) - and then think about how many sales they might be losing to people purely cos of the height issue alone (with salesmen not mentioning the replacement seats - or shops not having them on for folks to try).
Snotty (2001 M600) is far lighter than Tango (2005 M620) and also shorter by 1 & half ins too.

BINGO !!!!!

For what its worth, here is my 2p

I ride a 97 ss and its my first bike, so i guess my opinion counts even less than all of you haha.

Anyway..

Ive been a fan of Ducatis since the late 90s, and never actually thought id own one.

When i was looking for a bike, the first bike shop i went to was the Ducati dealer, and yeah, i couldnt afford a new one, or even one of their second hand ones.
I figured id have to settle for a japanese 400 or something.

As it goes, i got a good deal on my ss, and the insurance is actually cheaper than a Jap 400 (go figure).

I think whoever said that it was the marketing people not doing their job properly really hit the nail on the head.

As a new biker, i see the monsters or smaller capacity SSs as ideal.
It's a shame the entry level monster is so much money for what it is, and new smaller cc SS's dont exist.

Personally i really like the 749/999. I feel the shape is a grower. i saw my first one up close in January and hated it, but now id love one.
But, even if i had the money for one, i doubt i would buy one.
The servicing costs/dealer hourly rate put me off.

Cy

one thing to note tho, is that the M695 is cheaper to buy than the 620 it is replacing - and that it has a much longer mileage service interval.
Someone must have listened somewhere............

Now, Ducati - just sort the rideheight out for us who dont have long legs, whittle the weight down a tad more - and I will go shopping - for that yummy HM:cool:

All Ducati need to do (and I'm sure its a lot easier to say than to actually achieve) is to improve reliability and reduce servicing costs.
£950 for a 12,000 mile service for a 749S is just stupid.

Yep the monster is Ducatis bread and butter, get that wrong and Ducati will be in trouble. S4RS yes please.

Not too keen on the idea of 1200cc, sounds like a motor out of some milwaukee iron.

With me smug face on I think I've got the best of both worlds with me 998, 999cc mota, 916/996/998 looks, glacial depreciation.

Ducati built their image on racing bikes that were also style icons. Sure they are still winning races but the style is no longer to everyones taste.

In some sense Ducati are in a similar position to their Cousins down the road at Ferrari, the current Ferraris are much better to drive than their predecessors but the looks with all the air inlets (a la 360/430) are not the design classics in the aethestic sense that their predecessors are.

Ray.

You only take a hit if you sell:eureka: so just keep it and start a collection.

Mike

Interesting comments and a good read :)
I think 999's are dropping so much value because the customers who always bought Ducati don't like the shape and aren't buying new or used versions of this particular bike especially in the UK.

Maybe I need to spread the word, most bikes in the UK cover low miles and are a weekend toy so servicing costs aren't a major problem I should be telling others who have never ridden a Ducati sportsbike to go and try one.
Trouble is the figures in a magazine are what people base their buying decisions on and that can't show just how good the bike is to ride :(

Anyway I've got a Vauxhall cavalier for sale if any of you 1990's style addicts are looking for a car :bouncy:

[Edited on 16-5-2006 by couchcommando]

how about a Vauxhall Viva to match my new bike ?