California Superbike School
 

i know some you have done this because iv seen pictures of your bikes. it seems a lot of money but is it real worth it? what did you get out of the day?

IMHO YES-but I will let some of the others explain.

John

I seem to remember John getting a new water pump for the Gilera:devil::devil::devil:

I've completed levels 1-3....

Unless you are already a very technical rider I think you will benefit no-end.

I took something new from each level, for example after one level 3 drill I felt very uncomfortable - just did'nt gel for me and the bike felt very unstable- discussed it with the instructor - he suggested a change in foot positioning - wahay - complete transformation to the feel in the corner and it clicked (locking in). That then resulted in me changing my footpeg and lever positions to take maximum advantage from the drill, its that type of attention to detail and interest in you as customer that you are paying for.

For me, worth every penny.

My last thought on the subject would be, if you already fancy yourself a bit you may well wonder whats the point of the level 1 drills and walk away afterwards thinking it was a waste of money- DON'T, they are the fundemental building blocks of something much bigger and better.

Thomas Luthi back on the top spot .......

For me, no, not really. Although i expect a lot of other to disagree.

Don't get me wrong, was a really well run day and the talks from Andy Ibbot are superb. But from a 'riding' perspective, i'm not convinced i learned anything at all.

Certainly nothing was in the course that i didn't 'know' from reading Twist of the Wrist 5 times before the course.

OK, when there you are 'implementing' it as opposed to just reading it. But in theory you could do that on any trackday.

The thing that really did it for me was after each session i'd come in and it would be "yeah that's great Steve, exactly what we were looking for".... ummmmm how does that help me exactly ?

If you want a 1 day thing, i'd say don't.... if you want a 4-10 day training course... then go for it.

Don't think it's for ultimate track gods like yourself Steve, aimed at us "mere mortals" I guess. Mind you some pretty successful racers have gone through the CSS system

I'm hoping to do level 1 soon, the season seems pretty well booked up so it must be popular and some go back for refresher courses from time to time.

Why do i bother ? seriously ???

is no-one allowed to have an opinion any more ???

I'm more than well aware of who's done what and how much sucess Andy and CSS have had with racers, one of my close mates Dan Hegarty who does Superstock is one of Andys students and swears by him....

but that wasn't the question.

the question was "what did YOU get out the day"

FFS

We do sometimes wonder...

There's no two ways about it, it's not cheap. Is it worthwhile? Well clearly there's a number of different opinions to choose from - it just depends on who's advice you choose to listen to.

I'm now a coach for the CSS Dom so if you want a chat about how things work during the day etc - I'm more than happy to have a chat about it. I'll u2u you my mobile number.

because the bloke asked a question and i'm not a sheep like a large percentage of people ?

I for one are glad you are not one of the flock.........bloke asks a question and you give your opinion..not a problem there I dont think;)

I actually agree with steve on this!

For someone that has had no training or imput and wants to go do trackdays, i think its pitched at the perfect point, and lets face it where else can you go for this training?

I think its strung out somewhat as a catch all learning curve, and i know i would get frustrated at this. I do consider it sometimes, but then look at the cost. For me level 1 and 2 is equivelent money to a 4 day track day at jerez/almeria/cartegena....................

It is a valid point to talk about some of the racers who have progressed through the courses, but it is equally as valid to look at those who have not..........and still succeeded!

I'm highly sceptical about the worth of such a course to established racers like me. I'm not blowing my trumpet but, I've got quite a lot racing experience I wonder how much I would get out of it....For sure I've got lots of bad habits, I'm no great shakes and well past my racing zenith but, it might be more useful for me to jump in at a higher level than have to go through all preceeding levels with the associated costs.

On the whole, I prefer to listen and talk with my peers and fellow racers about lines, techniques and setup rather than go on some prescribed course where I might actually be getting taught by people with much less experience. I've always learnt something from my peers in that respect and I think I'd get more out of paying for a fellow racer's tracktime and spending a day with him.

from the reports i have read and feedback..its great for road improvements if you can apply them but often on rideouts etc you cant....as for does it make you faster on track..i seriously doubt it........its not a race school is it.?

Phil

How long are the sessions ? Do you always make it to the end of them ;) ;) ;) :P

If anyone *genuinely* wants to know more about how it works and how it could be applied to your riding then I'm more than happy to have a chat about it. Just let me know and I'll u2u my number.

fil2 - if it doesn't make you faster on track, why does the reigning 125cc world champion STILL have Andy Ibbott in his corner? If you watched the coverage of the 125 GP on the weekend you could see Andy's smiling face with the rest of Luthi's team as he mounted the podium, Keith and Julian even mentioned him.

No it's not a race school, it's a cornering school. So it's only applicable to people who ride bikes and go around corners ....

:lol:

should that be go around corners .. fast without visiting the gravel?

:lol:

Was that a bit below the belt TP? I only say what everyone else is thinking!

Thats the sign of a good business ...having case studies and " celeberaties " on side.

Im not disputing that it cant make some people faster on track ! im just commenting on what people have told me that they dont feel the skills they were taught were applicable to racing.........

I can only base my assumptions on what others have said, as i have not been on the course.

be good to find out................

:cool:

smiling faces after luthi being no where for the first 3 rounds!

as far as cornering goes, i would challenge the fact that learning to corner on a track benifits road riding, as a racing/trackday line is a different line to riding on the road.

So TP, you must be able to get us a nice discount...*hinthint* ;)

It's something I'd like to do, it's just the cost of it that's stopped me so far.

I'm guessing that Tom Luthi was in GP's before CSS got hold of him???

So he was probably faster than any of us ever will be anyway!

I'm sure that all the theory is 100% spot on and is good for those capable of translating it to their riding or as a reminder (as in Luthi's case?) to stop bad habits.

I think like Nige/andyb on this one too. I'm curious about CSS, but I'm never gunna be in BSB or GPs, so for me it's money not worth spending. I also think that if you're gunna trundle around in a slow/inter group on a trackday etc - why the hell spend all that money to remain a trackdayer? Albeit maybe a slightly quicker one?

You've either got the skill/balls to be fast or you haven't.

Not knocking CSS, if I was loaded I'd probably do all the levels just out of curiosity - and maybe I'd be a better rider for it too.

:)

TBH I'm pretty much a believer of this, I would like to see what CSS can do for me but the cost for what I think wouldn't work on me is what puts me off.
I know most of the theories but my throttle hand still shuts off when I ask it not too LOL

Do we really think Luthi gets the same tuition as 'joe public' same classes, same sit down for 40 mins....

Well yes and no.... i'm sure he gets that... but i seriously doubt that's ALL he gets....

I'm sure Andy teaches him stuff we never ever get to know.

Thats pretty much how I feel about it, i'm not a natural racer I have to be taught and I am mostly self taught and do wonder what some professional coaching would do for my racing.
And as per Steve I'm not sure I would get great value for money from the lower levels and at my age its not something \i worry about to much. Evry time I take to the race grid I learn somthing and the main thing I have learnt is don't take it to serious its only my hobby and is there to be enjoyed.
Now if I was trying to make my living from racing a bike I would need all the help I could get along with a bigger pair of balls

...but I think Luthi would be a GP star without that anyway.

Bit like teaching Rooney how to kick a football!!!!

IMHO

[Edited on 24-5-2006 by domski]

Agreed Dom... he was hadly rubbish a few years back... ok, he wasn't winning... but that could be the bike as much as the rider and natural progression.

Dominic - there have been many discussions on this over the years - try a search on here or on Visordown.

It seems to me that those who are used to being taught in other aspects of their lives find it really good - it's something you need to approach with an open mind and be prepared to listen. Those that haven't benefitted from it are often those who think that starting at level one (as everyone does because it is the basic building block on which everything is built) is beneath them and go with preconceived ideas.

It's interesting to see from the comments above that some people don't think it's for them because they are racers and think it's aimed at road riders, whilst others think it's not for them because they are not GP stars. Can't win really, can they! As Tony says, it's aimed at anyone who wants to improve their cornering skills.

It is expensive - but maybe you need to compare the cost of improving your riding, something which is transferable to any bike, with spending the same money on improving your bike. Why not buy/borrow Twist of the Wrist and see what you think? (I believe most people find book 2 comes before book 1 but am happy to be corrected)

And no, I've not done it (I don't have a bike licence!) but I have listened to Andy and the others doing their stuff on 3 x 2 day courses now and also listened to what many of the students have had to say about their experiences of the school.

Incidentally Dom, yes Luthi was in 125s before he got involved with Andy in early 2005. In 2004 he finished 25th in the championship, in 2005 he won it - with the same team. Something must have changed...

Abstract thoughts on this, having completed level 1 and read the books.

Learning is - action, reflection, theory and application. This is how you improve performance.

If you can do this with your riding, road or track, then fine. Any 'school' encourages you to do this as a process of improvment.

Rather than just reinforcing good and bad habits on continous trackdays etc..the school could help introduce you to this cycle of learning an improvment.

I am puzzled by people who can't articulate what went right or wrong, what they learnt and what they are doing differently to improve. The what has to be specific, not just - follow others, brake later, go faster?

By breaking learning down into small measureable chunks it becomes easier to act, learn and apply, so that it becomes 'natural'.

If you can and do this already, don't go to school, if you want to learn how then go!

IMHO

I usually use the boards as a break from work.....;)

This is the major problem with it as I see it. You have to start at the bottom - there is no account taken of your experience. It's a prescribed course which, AIUI (correct me if I am wrong) seems to assume that there is one way only.

Admittedly, I don't know the content of the course so, I am making assumptions based on hearsay and what others have related here but, if I am going to pay £100's to listen to someone tell me how to adjust my pegs, levers, seating position etc then I am not going to be very happy. What I am looking for is that final 0.5s per laps to get me from 8th or so into the top 3. Will CSS help me find that? If it can't then I'm not interested.

I read Twist of the Wrist - found it boring and turgid. Hardly likely to enthuse the reader. I'd much rather get out on the track and ride with someone who beats me regularly. I will definitely learn something from that.

What I find hard to understand is that the basics are the same for everyone ? Surely different people ride differently ?
We used to hear the same about suspension set up yet when you read deeper riders have their bikes set at opposite ends of the scale and still lap similar, so isn't this the same with the riding too ? Surely some riders use a 250 style and others use a point and squirt style ? Is the technique for both these styles catered for at CSS, or does it not matter as both these styles use the same basics ? :)

What will you learn?

Luthi started racing in 1997 when he was 11. He finished top 3 in both of his first 2 seasons, then won titles in 1999 and 2000. In 2002 he was 3rd in the German 125 Championship and 2nd in the European 125 Championship.

He also did the second half of the GP season - in 2002. He got a top 10 in his 3rd ever GP. He did 7 GP's that year.

He then did a full season in 2003, getting 2nd place at the 6th GP of the season narrowly beaten by Dani Pedrosa, his 3rd top ten to that point. He also got a 7th at Assen and a 4th in Malaysia. He missed 4 GP's and still finished 15th in the championship.

In 2004 he had a string of crashes and injuries - that's why he only managed 25th overall.

At which point did CSS make him fast???

I'm always analysing my riding on the track.

I will watch and learn where he goes faster...where he gets more speed from..be it a different line, a later turn-in, later braking point, fewer gear changes etc. Even mid-race I've picked up pointers from others and found that little bit extra when I needed it.

The fact that he beats me, has faster times etc means that there is something to be learnt because the whole point of track-riding or racing is to be the fastest.

How will I get this from an instructor who may have never raced or may not be a particularly good racer with a good track record?

Good at a task, and the ability to make others good at a task, are separate and independant skills.

If you don't want to go to school, ask Andy what his daily rate for 121 coaching is?

I work with top performance coaches in a wide variety of fields, sports to business to life....I'm an advocate of assisted learning.


There's a story about boiling a frog....

Why does he have to be fast to understand the theory and possess the communications skills to get that across? I don't remember seeing Tiger Wood's coach winning any majors recently!

Christ, there are so many things to respond to in this thread but I don't have all afternoon! I have a meeting to go to ...

Dom, my understanding is that Andy started working with Thomas either at the end of his 2004 season (25th) or the start of 05 (1st) - I think those results speak for themselves.

Should I ring Andy and ask him to take a look at the thread? He might post, he does occasionally. His arrangement with Luthi's team is for one to one instruction - if you've got the cash you too can have Andy Ibbott coaching you one to one! Obviously on a school day you don't benefit from that sort of student:coach ratio but then you're not paying the same fee's. I would also point out that on a school day, anyone working for the school is available to you to ask questions - including Andy. In all the school days I've been to I've only ever seen the classroom sessions have been conducted by Andy. So he and all the coaches are accessible.

He's a big TV star now, and a Green Day bassist lookalike! So pick his brain while you can!

http://www.greenday.net/mikedirnt.html





:lol:

Yup, would be great to hear from Andy as this is an excellent thread.

Ahhh...so you'll subscribe to the school of thought that allows "textbook engineers" to come out of university with a degree, call themselves engineers and then have the real engineers pick up the pieces behind them?
;)

It's a bit like IT bods with MCSEs thinking they know it all.

So Tony - you're a coach. Teach me to go fast then. :P

To bring Tiger Woods into it is missing the point entirely. He already has an inate ability that cannot be taught - merely harnessed, re-directed etc. We're talking about ordinary mortals instead.

[Edited on 24-5-2006 by twpd]

I know this. I'm a qualified bike instructor and used to work as a technical trainer for a large american corporation in microelectronics.

i love you Nige :)