continued 999 speculation in MCN
 

Am I the only one getting irate at the continued use of a cut and paste mock up replacement of the 999 in MCN?

Ducati bosses have said they are committed to the current design and specifically said the MCN story was rubbish. Yes they might be working on a bigger capacity motor but a backwards step to 916 headlights and swingarm as reported in MCN has been discounted.

The 999 is ahead of the market in terms of design (as was the 916) but i'm getting pi$$ed off with my bike being potentially devalued by tabloid speculation.

Yes, the 916 was iconic but as with all things, innovation moves forward.

Why are Ducati UK advertising there and why don't they confront MCN and get them to print facts not bollox?

I don't think the 999 replacement will look anything like the 999 or the 916 shape.

I just hope they come up with a new Iconic design !

Age

According to the Ducati media section of their website their most annoyed at the MCN 'mock-up' and assure that they haven't even began finalising any proposed designs.

Interestingly in a bike trader magazine I read at my mates shop yesterday, (I think it's Motorcycle Trader) - they have an interview with the main director at Ducati. They're currently in the process of beginning a major restructuring programme which should lead them into the black by 2008, making a loss in 2007. Included in the major shake-up is the removal of most of the current models including the 999-(all models including the Xerox 'R'), 749-(all models) and many more. He continues to say they've been damaged by selling the lower specification 749 and 999 models. This will result in them regaining their status by selling only 'high end' machinery such as the Moto GP replica model.

:puzzled:

[Edited on 25-5-2006 by desmobob]

S'not only tabloid speculation. I was offered an 04 999R Fila rep with 500 genuine on it for £8k a couple of weeks ago. Try to get a 998R for that money and you'll be struggling. I'm afraid the punters have voted with their wallets on this one.

:burn:

Thereby restricting the sales of their models to only the wealthiest of people. They just don't get it, do they? Regaining status? Status as expensive trinkets for only the wealthiest of people. Honda got rich selling lots of C50's and C90's. Not RC30's.

But nobody ever wanted to by a Honda because of the amazing C90's history, but they do when they see a modern blade, RC30 etc. It's a fickle world we live in unfortuantely:rolleye:

[Edited on 25-5-2006 by desmobob]

That wasn't the Fila Cat D by any chance was it ?
I recently can remember 2 incidents of very cheep 999R's going on either eBay and Biketrader and after investigation found one to be a CAT-D and the other (Hodgson signed apparently) - to be a .... fake Fila rep model.
I think fake 999R's and the like have done Ducati no favours either.
I know of equal quantities of people that prefer the 999 shape to the 916, but they prefer the 999 shape perhaps for it's mechanical additions that fix many 'yet to be fixed' issues that were waiting for the 'next big release' that the 999 did fix.
I own a 916 and a 999 and if they were both worth the same money - wise, I'd let the 916 shape go purely because it looks older.

It's the C50's and C90's that allow Honda to make RC30's. Restricting the appeal of your market and consigning yourself to an ever smaller niche is suicide. I'm a Ducati loyalist, I've spent the best part of £40k on buying the bikes themselves but, no longer will I buy a new Ducati because it is overpriced, it doesn't offer enough for the big price tag and they depreciate too quickly - disasterously so thanks to Ducati marketing tactics.

They say they are getting rid of all their entry models except the monster 695 or what ever it is now !

So they will be loosing most of their loyal Customers by putting the bulk of their bikes in a price range that most Ducati owners can't afford ME being one!

Hmmm Those Suzuki's do look bloody nice and I can afford a new one !!

Wake up Ducati and smell the coffee !!!

Age

The low end models the ducati blurb refferred to wasnt the normal superbike range it was the dark models (no 999 dark) and low end monster/(potentially multistrada) bikes. The strategy was to get the superbike range selling and add an upper layer motogp replica. The V-Twin superbike will continue to evolve as it always has since the 1st 851. If you could afford a superbike now then I suspect its not going to be much different and it will be perhaps more affordable over the next couple of years.
Incidently, not that I'm saying there cheap but I think the Biposto model of each full capacity superbike range (851-888,916-998,999 over the years) has never been cheaper and its not just relative its price on the shop floor. In fact I'm paying less now for a new un than I did for a 916! wayback when and that wasnt quite new!!!! Bargin!! :P
The grass is always greener and becareful what u wish for and all that

Guys, guys
As Mr Barry Sheen once said.
''MCN never let the facts get in the way of a story''.
I'm holding on to my 999 base model becouse it makes me smile, if Ducati cut it from there range i have a bike that no one else has around here (having said that i do live on the east coast.) Could have had any litre bike i fancied at the time but I know i would only want to sell it in 6 months time.

In some ways part of the appeal of owning a Ducati is because I know I've bought into a brand that make an incredibly expensive model that’s winning races. I wouldn't buy a Hysoung bike from China because although mechanically sound, (and have longer history than most Japanese manufacturers), don't have anything that makes their badge... that bit special. Ferrari make cars that are extremely expensive, but split the parts down to their cost equivalent and they certainly aren't as expensive as the cost of the car as a whole. They don't depreciate mainly because they're not so readily available, (some models you have to be offered to buy). If Ducati try to be the motorcycle equivalent of Ferrari they need to stop making so many limited edition models, otherwise they're simply not limited.
They need to find a careful balance between making quality affordable and reliable bikes, (something the Japanese are very good at) - as well as super fast, beautiful looking and amazing handling limited edition specials. :bouncy:


[Edited on 25-5-2006 by desmobob]

Im sure you could get a cat"D" 998R for that sort of money as well :) If you were into vintage stuff that is

i don't think this is MCN's fault, its Ducati's inability to accept that the way they market product and released info to the press has not adapted to reflect the changes the internet has brought and the need for printed magazines to beat the websites with stories. |The new bike must be past the concept stage , taking a critical path back from a November launch in Milan means that given a "normal"lead time of 60 -90 days for components, time to run a small preproduction batch, manufacturing moulds for fairings and other unique parts and testing it all works, the design has to be somewhere near final now. Compare the route Ducati take to a succesful European brand like Triumph which is increasing sales , they allow limited press publication of the prototyping and testing of new models in the likes of MCN, it doesn't harm sales as the dealers and customers then know what is coming not speculating on it. I don't understand why Ducati don't releave visuals on concepts onto their own website to stop the speculation other than thinking they'll lose the impact from its launch, not much use if you've lost 5 month sales and upset dealers and customers in the process.

I wish Ducati would read this little lot.:lol:

I think thats a bit harsh. True the japanese bikes have excellent reliability and strong engines but the rest of it leaves a lot to be desired. Compare any of the following components between a 749/999 and their Japanese equivalent and you can see why a Duke costs more. I also have a ZX6R so I do know what i am talking about here

Head stock - Ducatis is a work of art, milled form a billet
Marchinesi alloys, make the Japanese ones look really poor
Brembo brakes
Fuel Filler - Ducati is die cast, Japs one are pressed steel
Side Stand -need I say more?
Access to an immense OEM upgrade parts catalogue - needs to be paid for somehow.

True, some of the above are cosmetic, but its all part of the Ducati appeal and brand, and it all costs. If all you want is the biggest bang for you buck, then Jap bikes are great, Ducati offers quite a bit more, like style, character, innovation......

Besides, Britney rides one, ;););)

[Edited on 26-5-2006 by 749er]

[Edited on 26-5-2006 by 749er]

Looking at the front of the new GP road bike (providing MCN didn't photoshop that as well!) I think Ducati are commited to a similar design shape as the 999.

I would disagree that they are overpriced, you are getting exactly what you pay for. If Ducati moved production to Asia tomorrow then they would be better value (and better quality/more reliable) but I doubt any of us would want that do we?

In response to Desmobob - of course we read the more interesting posts from time to time!

Sometimes I agree with the postings, sometimes not, but it does go towards a level of being informed about what you guys and gals are thinking.

Tim

:) Them`s upstairs do listen or should I say read what us as the buying public have to say, nice one.
Mind you I still have not emailed Mr Maccabee about the 748/9** series of bikes re the openers & closers, still think something should be done about them.

Chris.:burn:

Wow ! A real Ducati *person* reading this here text :bouncy:
I agree with 'gossa' - Ducati wouldn't have devised the 999 shape without genuine reason. Many hours spent working on aerodynamics to allow the bike to flow thru the air as much as direct in cool air wouldn't have been designed solely by an artist.
Look at the likes of the GSXR K6 range, personally I think they look quite ugly, but they work very well. It must be real hard to allow the look of a bike not overwhelm it's functional design. The Harrier was always a weird looking H.O.T.O.L craft that the American Navy made look even more strange , but theirs had added functionality and was much-o faster.



[Edited on 26-5-2006 by desmobob]

So if you're reading Tim, and we appreciate that you are, why don't put pressure on MCN to stop running that mock up that is sending the wrong message to every sector of the market including the trade, existing and potential owners? I feel that you guys are not communicating the bologna message to the uk media sufficiently . the uk is obsssed with numbers,horsepower verses weight verses cost. You can't put a number on the feeling, an emotion and that is what riding a ducati is all about. If the mock ups do not give a fair representation of the direction you're gong, set the record straight.

sorry for the crap punctuation, i'm on my pda mobile with that rubbish little stylus!

So if you're reading Tim, and we appreciate that you are, why don't put pressure on MCN to stop running that mock up that is sending the wrong message to every sector of the market including the trade, existing and potential owners? I feel that you guys are not communicating the bologna message to the uk media sufficiently . the uk is obsssed with numbers,horsepower verses weight verses cost. You can't put a number on the feeling, an emotion and that is what riding a ducati is all about. If the mock ups do not give a fair representation of the direction you're gong, set the record straight.

there is no way that MCN mock up will be built by Ducati like that. Ducati has a reputation as being a true design house, despite what some feel about the 749/999. Design wise it is consistent, radical and innovative.

That mock up is at best a b*stardisation of organic and angular design philosophies. It has no consistancy, there is no new concept behind it, and worst of all it would be a capitulation. To call it a pastiche would be overgenerous. At least a pastiche pays homage to a previous design icon in a somewhat less comical way. I cant use the word I would like to use as it would probably offend.

If anyone at MCN thinks that will be built then they have got all their design knowledge from Changing Rooms. On the plus side they maybe handy with a paint brush and offer to pop over and finish my decorating

I can only guess that Ducati feel its beneath them to comment and that nothing would be gained by commenting. Who needs enemies in the press?

[Edited on 27-5-2006 by 749er]

here here!
From my view of the developement of the sports bike ranges ducati produce, there are always step changes , ie the SS range underwent a significant style change with the SSie even though the core components didnt change that much . The Next superbike whatever it looks like wont or at least shoudn't be a re-hash of pervious versions be 888,916 999 etc i hope it will be unique in its own right. That way the models past and present stand on thier own merits. and if you want the sexy looks of the 916 or blunt racer of the 888 or angular 999 you can pick one that suites your preference.

Personally if I had the means to colect ducatis I'd have one of the 888 models to go with my now owned 999.
I'd have to miss out the 916 range as having had a 916 I'd could only own one now as an objectd'art cos I just dont fit them and I need to ride what I own not just look at but these are just my prefernces. Plus Id have to have a yellow 900superlight too. i can but dream. cant i?

I'm with you on that one. The new 1198/S/R bike must be close to or nearing completion in terms of the design. November is not that far away and as you say, tooling up, even for preproduction is a time consuming process, so we have to conclude that the bike is, bar a few last minute changes due to test results and costs, almost complete. I was not entirely convinced by the spy shots in the Italian "MotoSprint" magazine of the bike circling Mugello, as even with the black gaffa tape all over the fairing panels, it was at best a test mule for the mechanical components and if you can "let your guard down" quite that publically, it smacks of nothing short of a red herring visually to keep the press guessing. I like the idea of Ducati issuing some pre production concept sketches though. They would do well to get the feedback before they launch the new bike (as with the HyperMotard) before they commit commercial suicide and unveil the unthinkable (a rehashed 999). Let's hope thats not the case and that Alan Jenkins or the like has a hand in it's design as the Demosedici he penned is just gorgeous and leagues ahead of Terblanches recent abominations. If you disagree with that, then the post 999 introduction era which heralded poor sales figures, ought to back up my last statement.

Another "Spy Shot" of 999 replacement
 

Not seen this one in the cluster released by "MotoSprint" magazine, so here it is from another angle and somewhat better quality.

Yeap......Like your thinking mate

Personally, I think anyone would give them a better design than any of Terblanche's efforts for them.
They do seem to oscillate between great visual designs and complete dogs tho ... think back to the 860-series-dogs sandwiched between the bevel-SS and the Darmah, the F1 series then the Paso-dogs followed by the carby-belt-SS designs.
Here's hoping !

But he designed the supermono, influenced the 916 and has created the best real world road bikes Ducati have made in the 999 and multistrada and ST3/4 plus did the sport classics. he changed the way we think about bikes making them smaller, thinner and more shaped. And all those projects retained the same basic engine/chassis configuration he was stuck with given the limits that must be imposed on real development. An amazing job in my book.

I've said this before but he is as influential as Jonathon Ives is at Apple and Ducati won't find a successor easily.

Something ducati need to do is actually move away from mass produced bikes thrown together like a meccano kit!
The 999 is actually a very good bike, not everyone likes change tho:rolleyes:
I didnt pay £20k for a bike with a motor that is 'built' in under an hour!:o
(eg. Cam timing 8deg out? wtf?:mad: )
I want a bike that has been built properly and would be happy to pay for that.
Unfortunately after also getting shafted with the depreciation on my 999r i am not confident in going forward with a Sedici! (its £10k too much IMHO) Even if it looks like its being built like an R should be!

its going to be single sided.
other than that I don't mind what they do.
I think the price depreciation chillo is talking about has happened because there is no difficulty in getting hold of the 999R model.
but as he said if its going to be expensive it has to be built well.
all I hope is that it looks good and goes better.
I think the back end may resemble the Guzzi prototype that was floating around a while back.
Still not long to wait now ?
but it will be single sided ;)

I would be interested to know if they put any of there concepts in front of the people who buy Ducati's.

Tim - if you're reading perhaps you could comment ?

IMO the latest 999r looks pretty good, the swingarm is better proportioned than the original design and the high spec components keep you attention away from some of the awkward areas of the design.

When I first saw the original 999 I couldn't believe it escaped from the factory with some of the design irregularities.

I am planning to buy a bike next year, if the new Duke is not my cup of tea I'll buy an RS250 Honda for a track bike and wait another 5 years .....

I am really looking forward to see what is delivered !

Thats a shame.....single sided is a compromise from an engineering and racing standpoint...just a sop to the people who thought the 999 was ugly.
Single sided swinging arms were great for RVF racers looking to win the TT or Suzuka 8 hours where seconds saved in the pits could mean the difference between winning and losing. Ducati's don't tend to do well in longer distance races so the advantage of a single sider is limited.
Ducati always say that Racing defines their design....in this case it will not (assuming that the arm is single sided of course).

hmmm
not sure its the major limiting factor in wining a championship that some make out.
rigidity is not always the solution. take the Roberts bike that has had bits taken out of its chassis to make it more flexible. its not doing bad.
and they have moved there shock mounting back to something from 500 days.
it only got beat by one factory Honda at the weekend.
but nether the less going single sided is to appease the masses who just think it looks the nuts. which it does :rolleyes:

What do you mean by this mate? Not questioning you,just not sure what you mean?

:)

Honda ditched the single sider in WSB on RC45 as it was of no benefit....they are heavier than normal swinging arm and distort in a way which does not help handling....flex is one thing.....having your rear wheel out of line is another

No problem, I just felt that certain items, like the fuel tank look slightly small in relation to other parts of the bike. Another example was the original swingarm, which although fit for purpose looked a little lightweight and out of place.
It may sound like I'm being over critical, but for a premium product and the most recognisable brand in motorcycling it does look like different people designed different parts of the 999.

Kind of "form coming from function".

I'm really looking forward to the next model, I can't help feeling it might be a compromise.

[quote=Foxy]No problem, I just felt that certain items, like the fuel tank look slightly small in relation to other parts of the bike. Another example was the original swingarm, which although fit for purpose looked a little lightweight and out of place.
It may sound like I'm being over critical, but for a premium product and the most recognisable brand in motorcycling it does look like different people designed different parts of the 999.
QUOTE]

It looks like it was "designed" by a council committee. The 748/916 looks like it was designed by someone who loves bikes.