VFR vs ST3 vs ST4S
 

Hello all,

I'm toying with the idea of unloading my vfr800, and am tempted by an ST4S.

I'm after a few opinions from you people though, who might have also transferred from a vfr, or ridden both.

I should add that this is to be used mainly for touring 2 up, as I have a 996 for fun already :roll:

So, onto the questions:
1) performance, compared to the vfr, other tourers, or the 996.

2) ground clearance - will I be able to crank it over a decent way without grounding out ?

3) I have read the ST2 headlight was cr@p. How good/bad is the ST4S light ?

4) Luggage. What are they like with the hard luggage fitted (e.g. light front end at speed) ?

5) how many miles can you get to a tank of fuel when riding enthusiastically ?

6) how comfortable is the seat for long trips ? (we do a lot of 10+ day europe trips, so this is important)

7) reliability.... Are there known issues to keep an eye on ?

8) Abs or not abs ?

9) Anyone tried the ST3 and know how that compares ?

Sorry for so many questions. I'm just trying to get primed with all the right questions before I head for the dealers.

Thanks all,
John.
pss, it'll probably be a red one :D

I can answer some of your questions..

3) I have read the ST2 headlight was cr@p. How good/bad is the ST4S light ?

ST2, ST4 and ST4s all have the same headlights

4) Luggage. What are they like with the hard luggage fitted (e.g. light front end at speed) ?

Full panniers and passenger plus tankbag on my ST4 caused no problems. Front felt fine. The only time i could feel the weight was at lowish speeds but i could still do feet up U turns on full lock.


5) how many miles can you get to a tank of fuel when riding enthusiastically ?

Hmmm, about 170 when ridden in normal mode!!

6) how comfortable is the seat for long trips ? (we do a lot of 10+ day europe trips, so this is important)


Had no problems with the seat but i think its a personal thing really.


7) reliability.... Are there known issues to keep an eye on ?

Rockers on the 4 valvers, cam belts on all of them, voltage regulators, clutches, warped front disks.


My experinces are with a 1998 ST2 and my current 1999 ST4. All the ST series share many parts though.

I've only ridden a VFR once on a test ride but from memory...

1) performance, compared to the vfr, other tourers, or the 996.

An ST2 is a pretty fair match for a VFR, making up for the loss of a few horses with low down grunt. The ST3 road tests reckon the engine is a peach, keeping all the low end of a two valver with better top end. I've ridden two ST4S's now and they will wipe the floor with a VFR, it's not described as a comfortable 996 for nothing

2) ground clearance - will I be able to crank it over a decent way without grounding out ?

Yes! Again, any ST will outperform a VFR by miles on the twisties. The magazines reckon the centrestand will ground out but I've only ever done that two up with full panniers when caught out on a really bumpy 90 degree bend. Otherwise I did 4 track days last year (inters) and never had a problem

3) I have read the ST2 headlight was cr@p. How good/bad is the ST4S light ?

It's not too bad, although the new ST3/ST4S is twice as big and a lot better apparently.

4) Luggage. What are they like with the hard luggage fitted (e.g. light front end at speed) ?

100Mph + No problem

5) how many miles can you get to a tank of fuel when riding enthusiastically ?

My ST does about 160-180, the 4S should be about the same

6) how comfortable is the seat for long trips ? (we do a lot of 10+ day europe trips, so this is important)

Standard seat is fine. Sat on the new ST3/4S at the NEC and it was really comfortable. What with that, a higher screen to reduce windblast and adjustable handlebar risers for angle and height and it should be all day comfort

7) reliability.... Are there known issues to keep an eye on ?

Only as other 4 Valve dukes the ST3 is a bit new to know

8) Abs or not abs ?

Not IMHO, just a personal choise though

9) Anyone tried the ST3 and know how that compares ?

Trying to get a test ride, but the road tests are good, peachy engine keeps ahead of the 4S until 100 MPH + speeds, but that's mainly down to the 4S being very overgeared, a 14T front sprocket or a few teeth on the rear would see the 4S ahead

Ride magazine have got a road test this month which reckons the ST3 keeps with a Kwack 1200 in top gear roll on

I've only ridden a VFR once on a test ride but from memory...

1) performance, compared to the vfr, other tourers, or the 996.

An ST2 is a pretty fair match for a VFR, making up for the loss of a few horses with low down grunt. The ST3 road tests reckon the engine is a peach, keeping all the low end of a two valver with better top end. I've ridden two ST4S's now and they will wipe the floor with a VFR, it's not described as a comfortable 996 for nothing

2) ground clearance - will I be able to crank it over a decent way without grounding out ?

Yes! Again, any ST will outperform a VFR by miles on the twisties. The magazines reckon the centrestand will ground out but I've only ever done that two up with full panniers when caught out on a really bumpy 90 degree bend. Otherwise I did 4 track days last year (inters) and never had a problem

3) I have read the ST2 headlight was cr@p. How good/bad is the ST4S light ?

It's not too bad, although the new ST3/ST4S is twice as big and a lot better apparently.

4) Luggage. What are they like with the hard luggage fitted (e.g. light front end at speed) ?

100Mph + No problem

5) how many miles can you get to a tank of fuel when riding enthusiastically ?

My ST does about 160-180, the 4S should be about the same

6) how comfortable is the seat for long trips ? (we do a lot of 10+ day europe trips, so this is important)

Standard seat is fine. Sat on the new ST3/4S at the NEC and it was really comfortable. What with that, a higher screen to reduce windblast and adjustable handlebar risers for angle and height and it should be all day comfort

7) reliability.... Are there known issues to keep an eye on ?

Only as other 4 Valve dukes the ST3 is a bit new to know

8) Abs or not abs ?

Not IMHO, just a personal choise though

9) Anyone tried the ST3 and know how that compares ?

Trying to get a test ride, but the road tests are good, peachy engine keeps ahead of the 4S until 100 MPH + speeds, but that's mainly down to the 4S being very overgeared, a 14T front sprocket or a few teeth on the rear would see the 4S ahead

Ride magazine have got a road test this month which reckons the ST3 keeps with a Kwack 1200 in top gear roll on

Thanks guys.

Looks like I won't be disappointed performance wise. I just didn't want to get out of the vfr only to find the ST4S was not an equal or better match.

I guess I should have also realised the rocker problems would affect the ST4S too, since they share the same engine.

Is there a fix for the clutch and brake problems ?
Riding two-up with luggage through the alps tends to be pretty hard on both of these...

Does the non-abs 4S have linked brakes ??
I'm not really worried about abs or linked brakes, but thought I'd ask.

How does the luggage attach, as I can't see any mounting points. Does it need carriers or something to be bolted on ?
Is it made by Ducati or someone like Givi ?

Many thanks,
John.

The panniers are made by Nonfango and are custom made for the ST series. If you have a look at my site you will see some pic of my bike. There is a frame arrangement which i dont think looks too bad.

Are they still doing the non ABS ST4S? I dont think any of the range have linked brakes.

The clutch is the same as your 996! They don't last much more than 10,000 miles and as you know they are not quiet although the 4S ha alloy plates ( a mod i did to mine) which makes it much quieter.

The brake problem appears to only bother certain bikes. Mine has done 17000 miles and its fine but i know of a 51 plate ST4S that warped its disks.

I think of my bike as a comfy 916, the 4S is a comfy 996 and shares all its faults and quirks.

John,

To add my 1p's worth, the ST4s now has the aluminium clutch plates so are considerably quieter than of old.

Never ground the ST2 out at Rockingham or in Italy on the passes.

ST2 seat was a bit painful (for a skinny git) after an hour but the 4s seat is slightly higher and seems more comfortable.

4s actually produces more power and torque than a 996 and haven't heard of any rocker problems with them.

With the TiN plated forks, adjustable Ohlins rear, a bit more ride-height and front compression it would take a real expert to find them wanting in the handling department, consumption? don't know, just fill it and ride it.

Brakes are excellent but can be improved further still with the 4 pad calipers.

Only downside? for me the p.xy little battery which I find needs to be kept on the optimate, then it starts first time.

There is a really good 4s forum with lots of info you will find helpful, not a link I'm afraid, but try www.st4s.com

We often make it over to Newlands or if you come to Popham you're welcome to try mine.

Thanks again for the extra info.

Rockhopper, I'll check out your pics in a minute.

I've seen both abs and non abs bikes advertised, hence the question about that. Seems that the abs equipped bikes are pretty rare, or maybe as you say they are all abs now so don't bother to state it.

I guess I'll find out soon enough how well the disks last.
What are the 4pad calipers off of ?
Sounds like a decent mod.

My reliability concerns stem from us normally doing in the order of 3k to 4k miles each trip. I don't want to become the one in the group with the bike that never makes it home.
Last trip on the 996 it had something happen every day :o
Made for an entertaining trip, but I took a lot of stick for it.

The petrol issue is to do with group riding too. We normally stop every 120 miles or so, so as long as it'll do that comfortably, that'll be fine.

Pete,
thanks for the kind offer, especially given that you've never met me ! :saint:
My 996 is still broken since my last trip (too skint to fix it until now), but I'll keep an eye out for the next newlands meet as its nice & local.
We'll have to book a test ride anyway as the deciding factor will be whether the wife likes it or not, so here's hoping its as comfy as the VFR ;)

thanks for the heads-up on that forum, I'll check it out.

Cheers,
John.
p.s. Passes in Italy eh, susten, furka, oberall, Col de St Bernard, etc... yum yum :devil:

Paul,

just checked out your site. Nice house !

I see what you mean about the pannier frmae. Not too obtrusive at all.

Interesting point about the pwer difference between the st4 & st2 (107 vs 75).
I hadn't said anything before but I have ridden an st2 before and was quite underwhelmed by it. It seemed to have plenty of torque but got a bit breathless, and I couldn't keep up with the others in my group. Maybe I hadn't modified my riding style sufficiently, who knows.

Anyway, barring a thumbs down from the wife I feel another Ducati coming on :D

vfr vs st\'s
 

The others have answered most of your specific questions but having owned vfr 750 and 800 and covered 40,000+ miles on them before buying st4 then st4s with combined mileage of 23,000 miles here's a few comments.

RIDING & HANDLING Despite spending money on ohlins shocks and revalved forks on vfr's they still don't handle as well. or same fun factor of Duc. VFR is a bit clinical and souless.With ride height and suspension properly set up duc is way superior in terms of handling and ground clearance, including track day use.

COMFORT. i found standard duc seat narrow and hard, not as good as vfr. However bought a Sargant seat which is far better OK for 600 mile days now. Standard duc screen too low for me at 6ft 3. Honda seem to have this magic 1 size fits all.

RELIABILTY. Only probs with duc has been new clutch required at about 10,000 miles and warped discs, otherwise fine.
Honda, might be a bit bland but absolutely bulletproof, even if neglected. I know of 2 vfr's that have done 100,000 miles and 1 that saw far side of 200,000. miles. (Despatch riders)

MISC. Hondas detailing (mirrors,headlight) definately superior. Honda is also better in town traffic.

LUGGAGE. Dunno, i just lob a small bag on the seat. Travel light,credit card, toothbrush, and spare pair of shreddies will suffice for a trip round Europe.

CONCLUSION. for all i've said in favour of vfr's the duc is definately the winner if you prefer your sports tourer to have some real sporting emphasis.
:devil:

PS fuel range is better than vfr in either sedate or thrash mode. All my mates laffed when i bought mine but never broken down on numerous foreign thrashes and uses less oil than mates R1/EXUP. Far better brakes than vfr's horrible linked dog pooh or earlier 2 piston front calipers.

You might just have to buy another seat to keep the missus happy, but its well worth it

The other good thing about the ducati panniers is that they are close to the bike which makes filtering easier. I think the mirrors are the widest part of my bike with the boxes on.

The ST2 is known for being breathless, due to the two valve heads. The 4 valve ones are so much better. I wanted a ST4S but the ST4 came along at the right price and i'm more than happy with it.

All the four valve engines suffer from the rocker problem though, ask around on here and you'll get tales about that! Mine needed three last time and a mates 4S needed a couple after only 6000 miles or so.

Downsides? Lumpy at low speed, expensive to maintain - erm thats about it as far as i can see!

Thanks Paul and, err, bdg :lol:

I know what you mean about the vfr being clinical. Trouble is it does its job very well (if a bit boring) and after riding on the back of it the wife is choosy about what seat she sits on.

Not heard of a sargant seat. Any links to info about prices, who sells them etc ?

Handy to know the panniers are well tucked in. I use soft throwover jobs at present, but the pressure is on to have hard luggage as they are easier to deal with.

Pete, that st4s web site is superb. Wife called me to bed at 12:45 am this morning as I forgot to go to bed (too much to read on that site).

Thanks guys, decision made for me.
Just need to get a trst ride and see what the wife says now.

Cheers,
John.

Seat
 

Sargant seats supplied by Calamander
01874 636666
www.calamander.co.uk

price around £290 but very well made and much more comfortable.:frog:

John, I can confirm what BDG says, 20,000 miles on my '4S, no comfort problems even on 5-600 mile days. I have the 4 pad calipers on mine(standard on 999 range, and first used on 996R) fabulous brakes. Don't bother with ABS it just adds weight and no the standard brakes are not linked. My '4S was doing 200 miles + to a tank last summer, 3000 miles round europe 2 up with panniers and tank bag, that was at 110 cruising so economy is good. The things I would recommend are 14 tooth front sprocket-makes a HUGE difference and the above fuel consumption was after the mod, and some wonderweb on the seat to stop your wife crashing into you when you hit the brakes-they are that good! Set the suspension up for your style and ENJOY those passes-we did, and the 'Ring 2up!:devil:

John

For what its worth my opinion is that the 4s makes mince-meat out of a vfr , which is a bland
mondeo man thing , if ever there was one.
I have had a ST4s for 18 months, done 24,000 miles in 14 months, then buggered my leg running afetr a pigs bladder.
The 4s has never let me down, ie by the side of the road, has been used a commuter all that time,
occasionaly wheeeld into the shed at weekends,
and has had
- three new lcd dispalys under warranty
- ecu , under warranty
- slid down the road on black ice, repaired absolutely fine.
- One smashed headlamp, stone thrown up, gobbled a fair few B'stone 010's,
been round France, and the benelux countries,
mostly at 110 mph , with approx 170-180 tank range, stopped using any oild at approx 8,000 miles, is wired for widder jacket and heated grips , and yes, has a ******* gell battery. When its really cold I connect a spare car battery via some
35 A leads with bullet connectors, wired in situ.
Bloody brilliant., tool. 14 tooth sprocket and decent pads are essential , as Monty says.

Downside ? Servicing costs. But once you have tried one the handling will make most other bikes
seem gahstly. Yes, 996 and 999 pilots luurve their bikes ( at the w/end , or track ) but for everyday use the 4S is hard to beat.

Over & out.

Hey Monty, are you a closet Ulysses member ?

You can compare the features all day John ..
 

.. however there's really only one question you want answering - do you want a love affair or a marriage??

Love affair or marriage???

I guess if it's as good to ride as it is and it keeps making you want to come back for more, you'd be a fool not to marry it.

If, however, you only want to ride it now and again, then it must be a love affair as you sure as hell wouldn't want to live with it.

John W - are you gonna look for new or 2nd hand?

P.S.

The above post does not apply to my first wife............she was a **** ride!!!:lol::lol:

Ah, now that's a tricky one to answer :)
I started out looking at a s/h 2002 bike,
Which is fine by the wife.

Having seen the prices of some new pre-reg'd 02 & 03 bikes they are looking most likely now though (seen a couple listed at 6k5).
However, I've been tempted by the look of the new 04 bike. :roll:
The stumbling block here is the extra dosh, as this is more than the wife wants me to spend on the bike. We have decided though to test one of each and then decide if the 04 bike is worth the extra dosh to us. Also depends on what deals I can get on an 04 bike.

I should also add I might put it through the company to get the vat back. Doing this on a s/h bike is harder to do.

Henners, fair point you are making.
I have the 996 for solo fun. The vfr is currently used pretty much exclusively for two-up touring, and the occasional WVAM observing. That's what the ST4S will be used for too.

Been ringing around trying to get a test ride on both, and it seems most places don't get their 04 demo bikes until 1st March...

Oh, did you guys know the 04 bike uses different panniers ?
Apparently they fit like the Yam ones do - clip into the bodywork. Is this correct ?
One of the places told me they can't get the accessories yet, which would be a real bugger for us.

Cheers,
John.

Accessories
 

Johnw

Unfortunately u will be just about to trade it in against the '07 model when the accesssories finally become available knowing our beloved manufacturer.

Me, cynical, naw.:devil:

bdg, nice river crossing :D

Judging by the results of this mornings calls I'm not likely to get a test ride or even a look at an 04 bike for around another 4 weeks :(

I checked the luggage on the ducati main site and the panniers still clip onto brackets, but are different (shaped differently on the rear to suit the new rear end).

I got a bit of a shock though.
I'm sure I was told on Wednesday they were 270 for the pair.
Today P&H told me they are actually 470 the pair !! :o
Might have to ride over to Italy and buy the bl00dy things there.

Hmm, now there's an idea !!
:D

Thanks chaps.

I'll report back when I've had a test ride and made a decision.

Cheers,
John.

I think the panniers and frame have always been around the £400 mark. Not bad value compared to BMW for example but bloody expensive for two plastic boxes!

John, are you sure the back end of the 04 bike is different? I had a good look over it at the NEC and in the Ducati.com photos and I'm blowed if I can see any difference to the earlier bikes, and the panniers are identical from what I can see.

The good news is that this'll mean you might find a secondhand pair, they crop up on eBay every month or so.

I'm glad I've already got some 'cos rockhopper is right. £470 for two brackets that are no more complicated than a garden chair leg (albeit a sturdy one) and a couple of plastic boxes is damned expensive

ST4s
 

JOHN - sorry about coming into the discussion a bit late, but just taken delivery of new daughter and she's consuming a lot of my time - brilliant though!

Back to your dilemma: I live in Switzerland and have a Yr 2002 ST4s. My riding style is quick and long distance - 400 to 600 miles per day. High altitude (alps) or high temperatures (Portugal/Spain) have not knocked the bike out of its stride. It has never dumped me at the roadside.

Handles wonderfully well fully tanked and panniered. Braking is confidence building. Comfort is not an issue for me, even after 600mls. Headlamp is rubbish (model yr 2004 is a vast improvement).

Access is rubbish - the bodypanels are a pain to take on and off, with the oil filler cap in an awkward position as is the battery. I've had no battery problems though, but it is on an Optimate throughout the winter snow layup.

Tank range is 180 then we go on reserve - at 220miles I need a garage urgently. I've read of the "faults" that some owners have experienced but can only report that I once had a strange affair starting which appeared to be the result of water on the relay contacts. Dried off and away we go - only happened once and I've ridden through many a monsoon!

Cost of ownership - that's a personal issue as we all have different levels of finanacial pain, but I am happy with the ST4s. Tyre wear - front 7k rear 3.5k on the standard MPSports. Cam belts done after 12k each time and no disc warps.

Would I have another - YES

John W,

Would a s/h Sept '01 bike with 6,800 miles in Grey at about £5k tempt you?
No panniers though, but with Ducati Performance tankbag, Ducati tall screen, 14T sprocket, Scottoiler.

Jools,

no i'm not sure, and to be honest after my trip to CMW today I think they could be the same.
I had a look in the 2003 and 2004 accessories catalogues and the panniers are the same parts numbers, and the brackets look identical to me.

The salesman thought the 2004 panniers were slightly larger capacity, but that's not what it said in the book.
I'l keep an eye on ebay then ;)

Here's a question for those of you with panniers.
Having a look at some panniers on a 2003 bike it seems to me that the handle recess could fill up with water in heavy rain. Does it drain out somehow ??
The salesman hadn't been asked this before. When we go back for a test ride I'll be taking a jug and testing it :lol:

Stan,
no worries about joining us late, and congrats on the baby. Any first hand experiences are handy to me.

Dave,
its a possible, but I can't say until I've had a ride on the 2004 bike.
Is yours the matt or shiny grey ?
I brought the 04 catalogue home and the missus had a goo read over a cuppa.
She likes the look of it, so that's a start :D

Cheers people, have a great weekend.

Cheers,
John.

Water
 

John - the panniers do NOT differ in size (salesman!) but the handle recess will hold a very small amount if you are caught out in a monsoon - however with the constant movement of the bike being cranked over from left to right etc it will all disappear. I have never had water in my panniers.

Do not know where you are based in UK but I buy my ducs from Phil Worth at Italia Classics in Lincoln. I am sure he'll let you play with a demo '04 model and he usually has 2nd hand models for sale.

One thing I forgot to mention on my last post was the suspension. Being fully adjustable it does take some setting-up to get just right. You can do it yourself of course, but it is a black art in my humble opinion, but when it's spot on the bikes a dream :)

Well good luck in the search, but the ST4s is a great touring bike in sporting style

John W,

It's Matt Grey mate.