996 Rockers
 

My 996 is due to run out of warranty at the end of March, was planning to get it serviced before then by Ducati.

There is a local race bike/tuning company close to me, Performance Techniques.

They are really great people and have Simon Watson from BHP Motorcycles working for them on any Ducati/Bimotos..

Anyway, I put my bike in to get a check over and a Dyno.

They have just phoned and told me that 3 of my rockers need replacing. They are going to order in the parts tomorrow for me.

Where do I stand with Ducati? Can I claim back the cost of these (£300)..

Any advice would be appreciated.

Mark

If they are not authorised Ducati agents then I suspect Ducati UK will politely smile & say bye bye.
The view is usually that the warranty is voided if non authorised agents carry out work on it during the warranty period.

Yes that makes sense.

Hey ho, lesson learnt here I think.

Looks like I will be getting a bill for about £900, instead of £600.. :(

Serves me right I guess.

Warranty & Flaky Rockers (not Def Leppard)
 

The ultimate decision regarding voiding your warranty is Ducati's but if you read your warranty you'll see that Ducati's warranty is not predicated upon an authorized dealer performing all of your maintenance work nor does it require that the motorcycle remain in an unmodified condition or contain only factory parts during the warranty period.

However, if you have a claim during the warranty period it's reasonable for Ducati to suspect that inadequate maintenance and/or aftermarket parts had contributed to the failure. But legally they can't just void your entire warranty. They have to prove that the presence of non-factory parts or improper maintenance caused or contributed to the failure.

Conversely, there is an obligation and need that you keep records and receipts that can demonstrate that any maintenance work not performed by Ducati was done according to the service schedule and all replacement fluids met Ducati's specification.

To avoid any concerns, any performance parts that you install have to meet Ducati's specification as well. The only parts that meet this criteria are Ducati Performance parts and they have to be installed by an authorized dealer for the parts themselves to be covered under warranty and to avoid warranty issues on the motorcycle itself.

Consequently, if you decide to install any non-Ducati part or use a non-approved lubricant, fuel, or hydraulic fluid and you experience a related failure, expect a warranty challenge on a case-by-case basis. If you change your oil and filter yourself and later have an engine seizure determined by Ducati to be the result of inadequate lubrication you've got a problem.

So, even though a dealer cannot say that your entire warranty is void due to aftermarket pipes, you'll loose if you have an engine failure that can be traced to an excessively lean fuel condition caused by installing an incorrect Eprom for example.

Aftermarket parts usually carry their own warranty and often are of higher quality than OEM parts but still can cause problems if improperly installed, and it may be unwise to substitute a part (say a filter) simply because it's less expensive than the OEM unit.


Regarding the rocker replacement.

Ducati has known of this design deficiency since it first appeared in 1996. On bikes with 4-valve heads, the rocker arms have simply not been reliable. A good number of them flake-off their chrome plating before the time of their first service at 6,000 miles and that often can result in scratched camshaft lobes if not caught in time. The rocker arms in 851/888's and pre-1996 916's typically lasted 80K miles with no problems. 1996 was the year when Ducati began to outsource the rocker plating to subcontractors and problems began.

Ducati basically concedes that there has indeed been a rocker problem in the past, but has repeatedly assured us that things have been fixed. They also point out that the rocker problem will be covered under warranty, even if you're outside the warranty period, (if it's not a race bike or an SPS/R.) So, when you have this problem, just work with your local dealer who will replace the damaged parts. If you're out of warranty, you usually will have to pay for the labor cost only.

They're not just being good guys here. From a legal standpoint, if there is a known manufacturing defect, warranty period or not, the manufacturer is responsible to sell you goods that can perform up to the standard expected when purchased - no matter how long after purchase.

There probably have been 17 rocker design iterations over the years. For 2001, Ducati announced they were now using an improved rocker design that is also compatible with earlier year engines. The new 2001 opening rockers can be identified by a small dot punched on the side where they fit onto the shaft. Unfortunately these rockers fail in exactly the same way. So even if you have a 2001 or later model, make sure that when you have your bike serviced at 6K miles, that they remove the cams (25 minutes labor) and inspect the rockers since any damage cannot be seen otherwise. The flaking starts as small little patches and if you catch early you can avoid cam damage.

To play it safe, and to make sure that Ducati doesn't balk at replacing your rockers, it's a good idea to keep adequate records to show that you've adjusting the engine valve clearances to Ducati specs on schedule, and used a lubricant that conforms to Ducati's specification in the owners manual.*There have been instances reported where some Ducati dealers have tried to make the owner feel that they have somehow abused the bike and then charged them for repairs.

The rocker arms have a hard chrome coating to increase their wear resistance where they contact the cam lobe. The opening rockers are more likely to be affected but occasionally the closing rockers flake as well. The closers don't take anywhere near the abuse as the openers.

There has been a lot of debate about the reasons why the chrome comes off. The answer is likely a combination of inadequate chrome thickness and the unusually long time needed for the oil to reach these parts during a cold start. In normal circumstances, a good synthetic oil would leave a surface film that is adequate lubrication until oil flow is established.

There's some correlation between a lack of oil and rocker failures. For example, the horizontal cylinder exhaust rockers sit in a oil bath and rarely fail. Most often, failures are seen in the more distant vertical cylinder rockers, especially on the hotter exhaust side. For the 1999 model year, Ducati increased the size of the oil galleys to the heads to try to solve the problem.

I don't think Ducati knows the definitive answer. If they did, the problem would’ve been corrected years ago. If it's any consolation, this type of problem is not unique to Ducati. Other manufacturers have had rocker hard coating issues in the past. Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki, to name a few.

Replacing a failed rocker with another having the same potential for failure doesn't make a lot of sense, so some owners have installed Megacycle rockers, stock rocker arms that have been machined down in thickness to allow for a greater thickness of chrome to be applied. Others say that the Corsa rockers are the ultimate fix.

The Megacycle fix is to grind the rocker/cam contact area back .035 to .040 inches and then build back up with a hard nickle-chrome boron alloy brazed onto the rocker, then grind the repair back to factory specs.

http://www.megacyclecams.com/

See Neil Spalding's articles on the Signa Performance website for more information:

http://www.sigmaperformance.com/rockers.html

My word... :o:o:o

Many thanks for that. Although I didnt understand any of it to be honest. I only try to ride the bike, I am not mechanical at all.

So, I can guess from what you are saying that because I have Blue Flame cans on my bike and the guys at Performance Techniques have just carried out some work that I cannot claim for the price of the rockers.

Any replacement, would have to be done by an authorised Ducati dealer.

Apparently the guy that is doing my bike is very well know amongst Ducati, but is not an authorised dealer (as such)..

Is it worth phoning Ducati and explaining what has happened? If so, what number do I call? Or do I just phone my nearest dealer?

Mark

If you get any joy out of Ducati UK, can you post it, as I have had the same sort of experience, 8 rockers and a cam gone, non franchised dealer blah blah. Good luck. :):)

So I am guessing that you didnt get anywhere then..

Shazaam:

Stupid question. Can I expect the existing rockers and even the new ones to flake again? Is this all part of owning a Duc?

Cheers

Shazaam
I think there may be an important difference between US and UK law.

My UK warranty booklet states
" The general warranty terms will become null and void in the event that;
a) motorcycles are disassembled or repaired at unauthorised workshops,i.e. other than our authorised Dealer'sservice network
b)..........................."

This is acommon thread for all manner of vehicles & other goods in the UK and Europe.
In order to prevent this protectionism by the manufacturers, there is currently consumer legislation going through to remove this requirement from manufacturers warranties.

Until this is passed, this is what we are stuck with over here.

I hope that Lloydy can get somewhere but sadly I don't think he'll succeed.

Best of luck.

The item rushjob is on about has already gone through the European Court with them finding in favour of the cosumer sometime in 2002.

We do work on Honda Suzuki Kawasaki Yamaha and Ducati and basically as long as we do the work to their shedule and using OE parts this will not invalidate any warranty.

I went to the trouble of finding this out because several of our customers who`s bikes we have looked after for a while and have now built a trusting relationship with ourselfs wanted to buy new bikes, didn`t want the local franchise dealer near them but at the same time did not want to invalidate any warranty.

My suggestion is to certainly speak to Ducati they are very reasonable and you are more likely to get a result with them than any of the Jap four.

That's news to me, only wish I'd known it 3 months ago :mad: when our local trading standards gave me the info I quoted above.
Might give them a ring and a kicking.
It's also good news for Lloydy it seems.

This sounds a little more promising.

So, will Ducati pay for the new rockers then as they will be fitted by Performance Techniques? Or do I have to get them fitted by an authorised dealer?

Mark

Lloydy,

You have a u2u mate ...

Just been through this, religous service schedule, 4 rockers replaced last year, Nelly identified another 3 this time round, ALL previous work undertaken by official dealers and a fully stamped book to prove it .... now out of warrant and more or less told to sling my hook, even though my bikes rocker issues are well documented at Ducati UK.

Very short sighted and I've promised to send my rockers in so they can have them as a souvenir of their crap customer service, as I still have the 1st 4 from last year which they only paid for after an almight row even though their own dealer said they should sort it ....

Almost enough to stop me buying another when the time comes ...

Phoned Ducati UK today.

Urm, well, to put it bluntly.. No f*&%ing hope!!

The only way is for me to put it in for a service (which it has just had), and hope they find the dodgy rockers. Dont fancy paying for another service aswell...

Told him that new rockers have been ordered from Ducati and will be fitted by Performance Techniques, so could I take the old ones to the local dealer etc.. Nope..

SO, looks like I right it off and try to forget all about it:mad:

Update for you
 

Phoned Ducati again as I wasnt satisfied with their answer.

They know who Simon Watson is and agree that he is very well recognised. But in order to replace the rockers they have to be done by an authorised dealer.

So they suggested getting Simon finish the service and replace the old rockers. Then have me give my bike to Ducati, to have them pull it apart and replace the rockers with knew ones.

Thought about it for a while and then decided that this is probably not the best idea, as Simon will do a superb job on my bike, better than the dealer, so why pay for a great job to be done, to have it undone by a dealer.. who would probably notice my Blue Flame cans and the new Eprom chip and say that the warranty has been voided anyway!! there is logic in thier somewhere. :)

So, the good news it that Ducati would replace the parts no worries, even if it has been serviced by an un-authorised dealer. But they wont let anyone else carry out the work.

I just cant understand why they dont have on the shelf replacements parts in this instance. Would make things soooo much easier.

Many thanks for all of your replies on this matter.

Mark

Divide and Conquer
 

Interesting.

First, read this letter. Then save it, you'll probably need it.



Ducati has already faced-up to the problem and say they will replace failed rockers, even on bikes beyond the warranty period. (But not if the repair is made by a non-Ducati shop.)

The lesson to be learned here is that you should assume that either your rockers have flaked already, or will in the future. So to avoid this hassle, if you have a bike under warranty, you should have Ducati do the valve adjustments and instruct them to pull the camshafts at the first 6,000 mile service, and particularly, at the last service before the bike goes out of warranty. You'll have to pay for the extra labor cost yourself, but it's worth the investment.

The only real way to know if your rocker's chrome have flaked and damaged the camshafts is by removing the cams from the heads for inspection access.



However, you can't withdraw the cams without sliding the opening rockers back and down out of the way first. So, you have to pull out the opening rocker shafts about a half-inch to slide the rockers back and out of the way, and then rotate the cam as you withdraw it along with the bearing housing.

Removing the rocker shafts is not difficult once you once you have removed the drive belts and rocker shaft cover, etc. It is the only way to really get a good look at rockers. Just don't pull rocker shafts out more than a half-inch. If you pull rocker shafts out too far you'll unseat the closing springs making it difficult to reposition them. A half inch is all that is needed.

I'd like to point out also that there are alternatives to replacing your rockers with equally defective Ducati OEM replacements. Megacycle will re-face your rockers for around $70 per rocker. BCM has a similar offering, as does Guy Martin of MBP for $45 per rocker.

http://www.mbpducati.ca/

http://www.bcmducati.com/

http://www.megacyclecams.com/

had the same problem last year on my 2k 748r.3 rockers and vertical exhaust camshaft.Spoke to DUK,guy called Andy Joynson/Johnson(Warranties dept) i think,after he sent their top tech guy to look at cam and rockers,they replaced the cam for free and went halves on the rockers,mine was not covered under warranty but had full Ducati service history(6k miles).It was in Ducati Manchester at the time.Keep pestering DUK but don't get snotty as it will get u nowhere!!ps i had 2 wait 2months for another camshaft batch to be made!and to think i px a perfectly reliable Marlboro R6 for the privilege!but it dont sound like me duke!!!:devil:

push it as hard as you can, with the change in European law from October 2003, manufacturers are on dodgy ground. The onus of proof is now on THEM, previously on the consumer, and as such they have to PROVE you have done something to contribute/make the fault. If it is a known fault, they are less likely to be able to prove it!

Some vehicle manufacturers are more twitchy to the Eu change than others, but your local trading standards should be able to advise and help more.

In short, providing you can prove any servicing work was carried out at the scheduled time and with OE parts, you will not automatically invalidate your warranty.
Paul