Clutch Judder
 

I'm sorry if this has been covered before, but i can't find any old threads that help.

I have a slipper cluch fitted to my 996 and on pulling away the clutch judders badly, slipping and griping until the lever is fully released and the clutch is fully engaged.

I have tried changing two plane plates with two more old dished ones to try and help but this doesn't seem to make any differance.

I have been told that they 'all do this sir' but i belive there must be an answer.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Have you tried getting all the clutch dust out?

I have a vented cover and did clean it out 100 miles ago to no joy.

I have thought about adding an extra 1.5mm plate to increase the clutch spring pressure, however it will also make the clutch heavier to use.

What make of clutch is it? How many miles has it done?

Its red!

sorry, i bought it from pro twins last year for about £500. Since then I've only done about 1500 miles.

I did have one problem when it was new. if you gave it full throttle on the motorway the revs would jump. As the plates wore in it reduced and eventually disappeared. don't know if it is related though.

The key to proper clutch engagement behavior is having the proper clutch plate stack height, that in turn, establishes the point where you get full engagement - and the proper clutch spring preload.

The higher the stack height, the greater the preload on the springs, and consequently the greater the force pushing the plates together when you release the lever. Since you say that the clutch doesn’t sufficiently engage until the lever is fully released, this tells us that the plate stack is a little low, such that there’s insufficient force to prevent plate slippage (and sometimes judder) until you reach full lever extension.

Like Ducati does for the OEM clutches, the manufacturer of the slipper clutch gives specific instructions on the stacking order, plate type, spring plate positions, spring plate orientation (convex side out) and stack height (38mm.) In doing so, they establish the point where the the slipper clutch begins to slip under a reverse torque condition.

You can change this recommended slip point, however, if you raise or lower the stack height. The shorter the clutch pack, the earlier it slips. Race teams do this all the time to suit a rider’s preference.

However in doing so, you’ll also change the behavior of the clutch during it’s initial engagement. On the track, it’s more important to the rider to have the slipper-function engage at the right time, so the behavior at initial launch becomes a secondary consideration.

On the street however, (and in your case,) the recommended pack height is causing objectionable behavior at launch, so the cure is to use a 0.5mm or-so thicker plain plate to change the “friction zone” on the clutch lever. But, then the slipper will need a higher reverse-torque to actuate.

So when you hear “they all do that,” what they’re telling you is that the slipper has been properly set-up for the track according to the manufacturer’s instructions.

The bottom line here is that slipper clutches are primarily track equipment because of this trade-off between road and track behavior. Some manufacturer’s slippers are better behaved than others in this regard.

how good are you.

thanks, i will try a differant stake height. Am i right in thinking that this will make the lever heavier.

Yes, but not noticably.

Slipperclutches wear a bit more than normal non-slippers. A trick to reduce grabbing and "judder" (at least for sintered discs) is to give the frictionplates a good spray of 5-56 or WD40 and a quick wipedown with a rag.

Slippage under power is propably caused by your friction plates being worn, the pressureplate then sets on the clutch hub. There should be at least 1mm free room between the pressure plate and the hub.

[Edited on 21-2-2004 by Bj.O.rn]

Another possible slant on the problem. I fitted a slipper for a customer last year that he'd bought off E-Bay.
It was a lot worse than the problems you're having in that it repeatedly lost drive. Pick up was terrible and it took a few hours to suss out.
What was happening was the tangs on the friction plates, at the outer most side of the pack, were catching on the spring steel ring that goes around the circumference of the basket.
When cold, the fit was "snug" but they cleared it and the clutch worked. Once the smallest amount of heat was in the clutch, the plates started rubbing. The other symptom was the clutch lever went all spongy, through there be reduce spring presure from the clutch.
The pack thickness is important, as Shaazam suggests, but if the friction plates are rubbing just a little bit, but the spring pressure is still strong enough to engage the clutch, you won't really notice anything worse than the grinding you're experiencing.
Worth a close check of the basket and outer edges of the tangs for scuffing marks or even light polishing.
A new Surflex clutch pack solved the problem in this case but if your plates are in good condition, maybe a light dressing of the tang edges could solve it.

thanks for all your help, as soon as i get a break from selling Honda's i will pull the clutch pack apart and check all the points above. If i find anything I will let u all know.

Just an added tuppence worth - I had the symptoms you describe and tried various clutch plate height/orders to not much avail. Eventually got so p*ssed off that I re-fitted a stock clutch; discovered that the slipper's hub was the two part with bearings, which had largely disintegrated. Unless FBF do replacement components, that's a £800 clutch down the swannee.
Hope your problems are of the adjustment variety.

I finallly got the thing apart last night and I think the problem is with the plate arrangement( i.e having four sprung plates). Can anyone tell me the definitive plate order for the slipper clutch with dots in or out etc.

thanks

There are a few "ideas" on plate arrangement, but here's mine.
I only usually use one dished plate to.

2 Plain plates first, then a friction plate, then the dished one with the dot facing outwards, towards you.
Then fill the basket, alternating with a friction, then a plain etc.
Finish off with a plain plate then fit the pressure plate.
The clutch pack should sit about 4mm below the edge of the basket.
If it doesn't, you can adjust the pack thickness using 2mm or 1.5mm plain plates.
If you still get a bit of judder, replace the outermost plain plate with a dished one, dot facing inwards.
2 dished plates is the most I've used before, so having 4 in there may be the root of your problem.

I have a clutch pack thickness dimension of 35.5mm from somewhere, but this could be applicable to a particular manufacturer. Might serve as a reference measurement though.

I assume that you haven't read these threads:

http://ducatisportingclub.com/contro...d.php?tid=3146

http://ducatisportingclub.com/contro...d.php?tid=3513

And the ultimate solution:

http://ducatisportingclub.com/contro...d.php?tid=4134

i''ve read those threads and the only one with pack order is for the 998rs clutch. In the order it has no 2mm plates and nine friction plates, I might be wrong but I think i have 8 friction plates and the majority of the steel plates being 2mm not the 1.5mm in the rs clutch.

I'm beginning to think that there is no definitive answer and once the weather is better i will just have to work it out over trial and error. I do think that maybe using just one sprung plate is the answer then making the rest of the pack up the 4-5 mm basket gap.

Clutch Tuning Voodoo
 

Clutch engagement problems are quite common, but solving them often requires a fair amount of trial-and error work.

Usually, an uneven take-up or excessive slipping signals signals the need for a clutch pack replacement, often just caused by normal wear loss of the friction material on the plates. The mileage between replacements has a very wide range, anywhere between 3,000 and 30,000 miles, depending upon the amount of city riding and the rider’s launch style. If the clutch type is a slipper, it’s normal for the friction material to wear-out sooner since it’s function is to allow the plates to slip past each other under high engine-braking loads during downshifts. Some friction materials do better than others regarding wear and engagement smoothness, just like brake pads.

Sometimes engagement problems begin after you’ve just replaced your worn-out stock clutch components, upgraded to an aftermarket clutch or changed to a slipper clutch.

The key to smooth engagement is controlling the frictional force developed between the smooth plates (that are driven by the engine clutch hub) and the plates that contain friction material (that drive the rear wheel through the clutch basket.)

The amount of force developed between these plates is controlled by the stiffness of the clutch springs, specifically by the amount of preload on these springs. When the clutch is fully engaged, the friction force developed between the plates needs to be greater than the engine’s applied torque to prevent slip. About 430 lbs is needed on a stock superbike.

When you pull-in the clutch lever, the hydraulic pressure applied to the slave cylinder overcomes the spring’s preload and progressively reduces the force pushing the plates together until they begin to slip. During this time the dished plate(s) in the stack act to provide a progressive reduction in the inter-plate force as the plates separate a few millimeters and you get full disengagement.

When you engage the clutch the opposite occurs. The reduced hydraulic pressure on the slave cylinder allows the push-rod to move the spring-loaded pressure plate toward the plate stack (a millimeter or so) until the plates begin to touch. Keep in mind that when you move the lever you are changing the POSITION of the pressure plate. You have only indirect control over the forces between plates.

The forces between plates is controlled during this transition (between disengaged and fully engaged) by a dished plate that is included in the stack to smooth this transition. This plate acts as a spring (pushes back with a force) when it gets flattened between adjacent plates by the movement of the pressure plate.

So, the force pushing the plates together first come from the smaller force produced by flattening the dished spring plate, and later, a much greater force produced by the preloaded clutch springs.

The higher the height of the clutch pack, the greater the clutch spring preload. So, as the clutch pack friction material wears-out, the pack height gets shorter, until the force between plates is insufficient and the clutch slips, at first under high torque conditions such as at launch, and later even when the lever is not pulled at speed. Time for a new clutch.

This is also the cause of the annoying phenomena of clutch “judder” such that when you release the lever, and while the spring plate is being compressed, the clutch springs can’t develop a sufficient force to prevent slipping so the plates slip, grab for an instant (causing vibration-induced slip,) grab, slip and so on, until the slipping stops as the engine torque is reduced when the bike acceleration eventually drops-off.

Here’s the Physics behind it. The friction force developed between two surfaces depends on whether the surfaces are sliding past each other or not. For a given amount of force pushing any two surfaces together, less frictional force will develop between sliding surfaces, than between surfaces that don’t. Once surfaces are together it takes more force to get them to slide than to keep them sliding. One they begin to side, however, they’ll keep sliding unless you push them together harder.

It’s these alternating higher-lower friction forces that cause the vibration that you perceive as judder. Sometimes adding a second spring plate to the pack will help to damp-out certain vibrations, so Ducati specifies a different number of flat plates, dished plates, plate thickness and stacking sequence for different models. The common spec however is stack height. Ducati clutch packs are stacked to 38mm ± 2mm.*

Here’s some examples:


Haynes Manual: 748, 916, 996

7 friction plates - one curved plate with two friction surfaces

Minimum friction plate thickness = 2.8mm

2.0mm plain plate #1
2.0mm*plain plate #2
3.0mm friction plate #1
1.5mm dished plain plate (convex side facing toward you)
3.0mm friction plate #2
2.0mm*plain plate #3
3.0mm friction plate #3
2.0mm plain plate #4
3.0mm friction plate #4
2.0mm*plain plate #5
3.0mm friction plate #5
2.0mm plain plate #6
3.0mm friction plate #6
2.0mm plain plate #7
3.0mm friction plate #7
2.0mm plain plate #8
pressure plate (line up marks)

38.5mm plate stack height


Haynes Manual: 916SP, 916SPS, 996S, 996SPS

8 (thinner) friction plates - two curved plates with one friction surface each

Minimum friction plate thickness = 2.3mm

2.0mm plain plate #1
1.5mm dished plain plate #1 (convex side facing toward you)
2.5mm friction plate #1
1.5mm*plain plate #1
2.5mm friction plate #2
2.0mm plain plate #2
2.5mm friction plate #3
2.0mm*plain plate #3
2.5mm friction plate #4
2.0mm plain plate #4
2.5mm friction plate #5
2.0mm*plain plate #5
2.5mm friction plate #6
2.0mm plain plate #6
2.5mm friction plate #7
1.5mm plain plate #2
2.5mm friction plate #8
1.5mm dished plain plate #2 (convex side facing away from you)
pressure plate (line up marks)

38.0mm plate stack height


Ducati Service Manual: 998

6 friction plates - one curved plate with two friction surfaces

Minimum friction plate thickness = 2.8mm

2.0mm plain plate #1
1.5mm dished plain plate (convex side facing toward you)
2.5mm*plain plate #1
1.5mm plain plate #1
3.0mm friction plate #1
2.0mm*plain plate #2
3.0mm friction plate #2
2.0mm*plain plate #3
3.0mm friction plate #3
2.0mm plain plate #4
3.0mm friction plate #4
2.0mm*plain plate #5
3.0mm friction plate #5
2.0mm plain plate #6
3.0mm friction plate #6
1.5mm plain plate #2
2.5mm*plain plate #2
1.5mm dished plain plate (convex side facing toward you)
pressure plate (line up marks)

38.0mm plate stack height

Stack Height

A too-high overall thickness of the plate stack will cause drag between plates when the clutch is disengaged making it difficult to select neutral when the bike is stopped.

The last 2mm steel plate can be interchanged with a 1.5mm curved plate facing away from you if you want to adjust the stack to get the 38mm stack thickness, or if you want a more progressive, soft clutch engagement.*A commonly-used substitution that adds an additional spring plate to the stack.

Any of the steel 2mm plain plates can be exchanged with 1.5mm plain plates to reduce stack thickness or increase stack thickness as needed to achieve your desired overall height. You will see the need for this as friction plates wear, so keep your steel plates from pervious clutch replacements as spares to be used as height adjustments later. The 2mm and 1.5mm steel*plates only need replacing if they’re scored or warped.

Hope this helps.

wow

give me a couple of days to get my head round that lot and i'll let you know.

thanks for all your help.

Ferg Shazzam
 

Im still lernin wot the left handle bar lever is for
I'll stick to Nelly doin it for me, and me riding
This muppet today, had steer in faster than Rossi's.
When Neil measured my tyrpe pressure thingies, had 'bout 12 - 15 psi in front and plus 40 in rear.
Pumpin up to some manual "tyre pressure recommended results" saw me have a new bike
So then, bak to thread, when you found out the simpleton's guide to slippers ( for me) and it can be put in 5 bullet points. then I'll unnerstand, til then, over to you guys and gals
mort
a perplexed, bamboozled and utterly ignorant mort:o:o:o:o

I put it back together last night as plate order from shazaam, and i think something is bent or squew. the clutch centre when done up tight doesn't spin quite true. when the whole thing is back together i can feel the clutch slip and then grip just by spinning it by hand on the biting point. I can't imagine that the gearbox shaft could be bent so hopefuly that only leaves the clutch centre not being on true. i will have to pull it apart today again.

was thinking about slipper cltch for the sps...don't think I'll bother now!
good luck;)

Bryan, if the punch/mark on the pressure plate is not aligned with the mark on the clutch center hub, this could be the source of your problem. Sometimes overlooked, but very important.

Cleaned bike on tuesday and removed all dished plates replaceing them with normal steel plates of the same thickness.

Problem solved.

I have haven't gone for a long ride yet but it insantly feels better.

Here endith lesson.

thanks for everyones help.

Have been having the same problem with mine since the day I bought it (black STM). The bike either needs alot of revs which make a terrible noise and vibration, if this is not done the bike stalls. The thing is it’s never consistent how much and how quickly I release the clutch. I have now not the ridden the bike for about 4 months because it’s so bad. Have had 2 new sets of plates (free by Mike at Tecmoto). But the problem is still there. Am currently looking to buy an original slipper clutch from a 748r to put back in. As I would like to use the thing. No one seems to know what the problem is. I have heard of many people with the same clutch having the same problem just to varying degrees. My brother bought one at the same time same sort of problem just slightly better and more rideable, never fixed it so sold the bike and bought an R1
What order etc did you put the plates back and is it now ok?
Thanks Simon

What you all seem to have forgot and is not related to Brian's problem, is that with a slipper you always start with a friction plate first. If you start with a pressure plate, this can easily move behind the central hub when the hub moves forward under enging braking.
The result will be that you have no clutch at all now, as no pressure will be placed on the clutch pack.
A friction plate can not move behind the hub due to the fact that the tangs on the outside edge, holds it in place.

Pacegod is yours an STM evo or conventional slipper. I had a stm once which slipped a lot. I found that the new plates that came with the clutch where quite rough. This marked up the pressure plates quite bad. I replaced most of them with ones I had kicking around and ths solved the problem.

[Edited on 14-3-2004 by Jon]

In answer to Pacegod, i left the original plate order the same however removed the two 1.5mm dished plates (the ones with a dot punched into them)for 1.5mm plain plates from an old set. And yes there is a friction plate first to prevent the thing locking up.

this has (for mine anyway) completely removed the problem of judder when pulling away.

any problems phone me at chiswick honda on 02089968100.