IAM and RoSPA? Anyone got any experience?
 

Help! Had a little off last year on the way to Popham, and am soon to get back on the 916, if I’m lucky, although a bit reshaped due to serious and long-term damage to body. Have decided that I need to get a bit of fine-tuning in the skills department, since this was a stupid mistake I made with no-one else around, and no-one to blame but me. I’ve been riding for ever, or so it seems (passed test in ’75), but that still wasn’t enough. Has anyone got any ideas as to how to refine the old technique etc, and lessen the risk of this ever happening again? Am looking at guidance from the local IAM or RoSPA groups, but don’t know if that’s really my sort of thing – is it all Barbour jackets, Sam Browne belts and BMWs, or are they cool? Also, here in Northants, Plod run a thing called BikeKraft, (called BikeSafe everywhere else, I think) where they take you for an assessed ride. Sounds good to me, but will they just be all about slowing down, or would I learn something new? Any ideas – of the constructive sort – would be useful.

Have met a few of the IAM guys and they seem OK to me, have a word with Anthony Ward, I think he's certified (or should that be certifiable).

As I posted on jewells thread, A good start is an observed ride under the bike safe scheme you can link from motorcycle.co.uk.
Not a good year last year I had 3 offs, although after 26 years without getting hurt perhaps fate was just rebalancing the books, I did california superbike schools at brands and in spain and could not believe how much confidence/speed had gone but in the last couple of months my road riding is getting back up to speed.

relax and enjoy

dave

I had a run out with the Bike Craft (Ride Safe) Police team last year and it was good fun. I have also passed the IAM and can't speak highly enough of them. It tottaly depends on your observers/local club attitudes though.

It's easy to put these guys into pigeon holes but when you consider they are all bike enthusiasts, doing all the training for free, petrol money aside, it's pretty hard to knock them.

The easy criticism is that they might be a bit keen to keep to speed limits, hmmm, I have followed a few IAM types on road and trackdays and what they might seem to loose on the banzai speed department, they recover from the relaxed way they cover the ground and clear obstacles (other slower road users)

Another point that was brought home to me was while we are arse up, head down andgoing for it, we tend to miss the hazards. Who can honestly say that they always make 100% safe overtakes, never find themselves half way around a car when they notice an upcoming right turn or driveway. These are the sorts of things that RoSPA and IAm try to reinforce.

I'll get my coat.

Regards,

Rob

Did a few observed runs with the local IAM and picked up quite a few tips & riding definately got better.
Wasnt interested in taking my test, but just wanted better riding skills.
Found it a bit cliquey to start with as a newbie (but isnt anywhere?) but persevered. Not many Dukes among the bikes (occasionally 1 or 2) and once I overcame my shyness ;) they took me at face value & helped me lots.
Def not all barbours etc, tho Sam brownes & the like, are used - after all you do need to see your observer!!!
Most of the bikes there were VFR's, Blackbirds & Triumphs... who cares what bike you are on - or the style of clothing (as long as it is safe) - you go cos you want to improve/learn/meet others.

Most local group to us is in Ripley, Surrey (not far from Box Hill & Newlands Corner)

C

[Edited on 21-2-2004 by CK]

Echo what Paul James has said, I ride with the Fenny Stratford Bikers which is IAM affiliated, that's the lot that Anthony Ward is an observer with. Good bunch of guys and very varied bikes. They meet the first Sunday of the month at Little Chef at Fenny Stratford at 10.00am.
www.fennystratfordbikers.co.uk

John

After chucking the 916 down the road
I did a year with the IAM, going on observed runs, & got certified!
Found it very worth while.
Also did a day with Rapid Training, which was excellent. www.rapidtraining.co.uk

Go for it..........
 

.......but dont think its the be all and end all of your learning! I've done IAM, BMF Blue riband and RoSPA Silver (havent time to study for gold!) and it still didnt stop me from losing concentration for a few seconds and coming to grief on a spot of gravel I should have seen mid-corner!
You never stop learning but your local IAM group is the cheapest way to start.
Good luck and ride safe whatever you choose. :saint:


:borg:

v.man are you off your head ??????
 

ok listen up!

ROAD riding

is not TRACK RIDING!!!!!!!!!

and if you realy think they are the same go book YOUR coffin :lol:

Fact 1

racing lines DO NOT work on the road !!

unless you wanna meet yourself head on.:D

Reasone .ENTRANCE APEX EXIT (track) step in weejb weeksy skids raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaatler:lol:

i dont do tracks because I'm **** on them !

cant get my head around entrance apex exit !

But fast roads YES YES YES why?

because its about reference

Vanishing points road positioning etc etc


EXample right hand bend just off left kerb vanising point comes to you to fast into the corner

vanishing point moves away from you CHASE IT GAS GAS GAS

slow in fast out !

i've seen so many head the ball's come out of donny after a track day only to bin it in the first series of bends

why ?

californian super bike school for raceers BRILL track day ADVICE !!!!

ROAD CRAFT as used by fire police ambulance iam rospa etc etc The LAST WORD IN SAFETY ON THE ROAD :cool:


i loved that rant ! :lol::lol::lol::lol:

Well said Mav.

Big Banana916 - just ignore the only the one person's sad advice here. He obviously needs to be avoided on the road - whatever he is riding/driving - having got such bigoted ideas.

Rant over

C

I have never done a IAM training although I always wanted to. It's in the book for when I get some time and I quite fancy the Bike Safe too.

From what I have read on them (planning to do them) and from the many trackdays & CSS that I did, this is not the same thing at all. Those are very complementary however.

Bike Safe and IAM are supposed to work your riding skills & instincts in an environment with other road users. They are designed for you to ride safely in an everyday situation.

CSS is essentially about handling your bike at speed and building you confidence. I don't believe that the other courses teach you that although they probably correct a few things if your riding position is really wrong for intance. I would not say that CSS is purely for the track either. Indeed something are difficult to apply strictly on the road like deep turning points or quick turns, but they do make sense. CSS has improved my riding & confidence by a long way.

So as a superbike rider, yes there is plenty to learn in CSS but I would not disreguard the other courses either like vman does. Riding a superbike on the road is not only about handling of the bike, but also a lot about reading and anticipating what is happening in the environment.

[Edited on 22-2-2004 by pguenet]

Funny thing is, Andy Ibbott who heads up California Superbike School in the UK also writes for MCN, and the advice he gives could have come straight from the 'Roadcraft' manual. If you talk to Andy (and I have) he will tell you that track and road are not the same, but that you can apply techniques from one to the other. Track based techniques just need to be modified to allow for road conditions.
A mantra pinched from flying school which is equally applicable to us-"There are old bikers, and there are bold bikers,-there are no old, bold, bikers!"
Have fun, but ride safe-I have no desire to be going to any more funerals.

John

Hey Monty, both of us are nearly bald and we ain't exactly young are we ;-).

Lot of sense being talked here with a smattering of what the horses leave behind on the road to test our real skill levels.

Haven't done any formal training myself but wouldn't be averse to it, one thing that always stands you in good stead though is a bit of common sense. If you make a mistake analyse it later.

Also worth trying to concentrate on riding good lines on the road IMHO, amazing how much more visibility it can give a rider and more time to react. You start off having to think about where you should be but after a while it becomes second nature and feels right when you are riding.

Another important factor is judgement of speed and distance, all gained through experience.

One of the most common mistakes I've witnessed in my 32 years riding is bottling into corners. Rider is suffering minor "red mist" maybe trying to keep up on a rideout and comes into a bend faster than intended, first reaction (survival instinct ?) get on the brakes, resulting invariably in the bike standing bolt upright and carrying hapless rider into the ditch. It's always worth having a go for it, I've surprised/frightened my self sh*tless (delete as applicable) on several occassions using this basic rule and have got round usually without even decking the footrests. Worst that can happen is that you fall off the lowside.

I don't know if others notice it but after a lengthy "spirited" ride cross country I feel really tired, I put it down to the concentration levels as I'm not riding tense, the faster you go the faster the scenery comes at you and the faster the reactions need to be, guess it all takes a toll on the energy levels........................one of the downsides of being an old bald pilot I suppose.

Hope you all have a great riding season in 2004 whatever you choose to ride whether it be trackdays, rideouts or touring.

or if you do mention Macau, Isle of Man, or The North West, also mention that the traffic is all going the same way on those days.

Vman ...

You really are trying to make an impression here aren't you ..???? maybe you should try less hard to push your views and opinions onto others without taking into account other avenues of learning .....

You may well have something valuable to say but unfortunately by belittling others and taking such a head on viewpoint will not endear you to people here ...

I personally have done a fair amount of Roadcraft based training and its aided me no end on the road.

I have also done a fair number of track days and very little of the skills are interchangable, its a completely diferent mindset.

Its training for a purpose and I doubt you'd keep up with most IAM or RoSPA instructors ona spirited road ride.

Are youa Jehovahs Witness by any chance ..????

Cany wait to meet you at Box Hill ....

No, honest ..... you're a legend already ....

Dibble

Have you changed your car then ..????

quote [ have you changed your car then?]

ROTFLMFAO :lol::lol::lol:

VMan
 

The fat ex copper who i did my advanced training with was also an ex racer who had lapped the Isle of Man at 110+ on an FZR1000 and his attitude was LETS MAKE PROGRESS...SAFELY. his idea of progress was very rapid as well.

The examiner on the IAM course i did is a serving officer who makes sure u do it by the book for the test, but said afterwards he personally when at work will give the benefit of the doubt to someone speeding but ridng well, but will go to town if your riding is not so quick but obviously careless and unsafe.

PS i don't wear a sam brown belt either and having despatched since 1980 have covered enough miles at speed to have to had the pleasure of several road side chats with the law, and got away with a fair few.

I have covered well in excess on half a million miles on bikes but didn't bother my IAM until a few years ago. It was well worth it, as there's always something new to learn no matter what you've done.Wish i had done it earlier.

Also done CSS level1 and a few track days but the 2 r completely different and fun in their own ways. Advanced training doesn't have to be boring if u get the right instruction. :frog:

Vman
 

I don't mind u taking the p**s at all.

part of the fun of being on the board, can't take yourself too seriously.

Whilst i'm bragging about being a real biker, i love going fast as well
(Personal best of 205mph on the speedo but only 186mph thru the timing lights... just to give u another excuse to take the p**s)

However the moral is i love going quick but i hate hospital food, and love staying alive even more. The rest of my post was more aimed at the benefits of advanced training.

look forward to your next bout of sarcasm but please be repectful and address it to 'your most knowledgable Geordieness' :frog:

I did Northants Police bikekraft last year, it's not a case of beating you over the head about speeding - general rules were to stick to 30 40 and 50 limits and make sensible progress in other places. It is only an assessment ride though, there is no tuition. They have a chat after, tell you what they think of your riding and encourage you to go on and do IAM advanced tuition, which I will probably do this year.

v man
 

ive just read you posts WOW !!!!!!!

i'm head strong

But you mate

take the ****....

cant wait too meet you!:lol::lol::lol::lol:


There are some good lads and gals on here !

and all you have done is take the ****

Think i will take a ride down your "20" in the sumer ! if i can get my invalid car started :lol: as at 44 i must have been doing sommat wrong in my riding! (why) because i'm still riding:lol::lol:


the point most of you have missed some people have got it !!
and some people will never have it (instinct)

v man you have obviously got more than you need !!!!!!!!!!

Tossa ......... give me a call when you wanna meet
:cool::cool: regards MAD MAV

Hey Guys,

I think we're all being more than a little harsh on Vman.

Anybody who has his choice of four wheeled transport and his attitude is more deserving of our compassion than criticism. A more illustrative example of the abject failure of this government's "Care in the Community" initiative would be hard to find.

By the way Vman I should warn you that the web-site at foot of MadMav's post is neither a pictorial nor editorial celebration of what perhaps many hairdressers more normally engage in as a hobby! :lol::lol::lol:

Oh by The way
 

TOSSA !!

means
TODAY
OBSERVE
SPEED
SKILL
AWARENESS


just incase you thought i was offering someone out!!!!!!!!!:lol::lol::lol::lol:

I've done CSS

Gunning it up to a corner? No...just the opposite in fact, getting your braking, entry speed and turn in points sorted

Step out on you mid corner for an emergency stop? Er nope....haven't been taught that at CSS either.

Mind you, I've only done levels 1, 2 and 3. Perhaps I need to wait until level 4 for all that.

wow this is good!!:lol::lol:
go on vman say summit else
i wouldn't let that mav talk to you like that, go on use your wit on him
and what about that jools, level 3 indeed!! big show off.

:lol::lol::lol:Nice one Glynn, Cracked up when i read that you evil person:devil:

Where's KB to do a bit more agitating:D

[Edited on 23-2-2004 by bigdaftgeordie]

HEY luckywhiteheather
 

YOU leave my RING out of this !!!!!!!!!!:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Have i missed something with Fiat punto's?

:lol::lol::lol:

Shame this has gone so far off topic :lol:

I'm an observer at WVAM who are the Wey Valley branch of IAM that meet at Ripley.
CK, sorry you found it cliquey, how long ago did you go ?
You might find things have changed now.
You could also be surprised at just how many of us have dukes, just they don't always come out for the observing ;)

On the track training front, last week we had Andy Ibbot and his sidekick Johnny 'the *******' (well that's what they called him when I did my Cali track days :D ) give a talk at our club night.

He conceded that some of what they teach is not applicable to road riding, but things such as wideview can help.

For those that have never been to a meet, IAM are not all barbour suited bmw or pan riders. around 80% of the bikes are sports or sports tourers. You are right that there are lots of Viffers, but that's cos as a club they do lots of touring trips, and the viffer is perfect for these (er, ask me how I know :D ). I should add these trips are graded on, well, speed of progress ranging from steady to advanced. fyi advanced is 996 against the stop in some circumstances :devil:

Closing comment is that passing the IAM Advanced test or getting Rospa Gold still won't help in some circumstances (we get it wrong occasinally too) but it will help you become more aware of the hazards enabling you to 'make progress' safer.
Sorry, I'll leave it there. Lecture over. If you want to know more U2U me or come along to a meet :)

Cheers,
John.

I have found my racing has helped restore my confidence on the road as it has allowed me to explore the limits of my own abilities and those of the bike and tyres in a fairly safe enviroment.
After decades on the roads I have built up a good awareness of what is happening around me, but following a few accidents, one resulting in a broken fema and another in fractured and crushed vertabrae I found my confidence had taken a knock. This really highlighted itself when out riding with the same mates that I had been riding with for the past 15 years, suddenly I wasn't prepared to follow them through corners at the same speed as I use to prior to the accidents and found I was getting in the way of those following behind me to the point where I would wave them through. They were all very understanding and never moaned about having to wait for me.
It was myself that wasn't happy with the way I was riding so I decided I needed to do something about it. As I was already spannering for a couple of them at Club races it made sense for me to have a go myself. My first race meeting I did 4 races finished last in 3 of them and next to last in the other thanks to the guy in front running of the track and rejoining behind me. I am glad to say that I have improved since thenbut still do not consider myself fast on the race track as my survival instinct governs my corner speed although I do get it wrong sometimes and up up on the floor but at least I can put my finger on why I crashed, more often than not I made a mistake usually riding beyond my limits.
All this has restored my confidence in what a bike is able to do so when coupled with my experience of decades of reading the roads it allows me to ride the roads faster than I did a few years back, althogh I still believe I'm not as fast as when I was a reckless teenager, thankfully there was know where near as much traffic around in those days so all the silly crashes on roundabouts etc I walked away from ( would have been less if they had folding footpegs in those days and if Avon SMs had more grip)

So yes riding on the track can help your road riding, but there are a lot of differences between the two and certain elements have to be seperated out. As I have explained to people just starting racing they know how to ride a bike they now have to learn to race and as Weeksy found out this can be a painful lesson, it took me a while and one day I may get it right.
Main thing is ride safe and enjoy yourself no matter where you ride or what your riding

Kev

I've only done 12 years of road riding (but only two years born again since a 19 year layoff), a couple of trackdays and CSS level 1 to 3. There are undoubtedly shed loads of more experienced, and quicker, riders out there than I am.

The discussion seems to be split down the lines of roadcraft or track training. In my humble opinion the two methods of training are not mutually exclusive, they both have their uses and I think are more closely related than has been portrayed in this thread.

Examples of where CSS style techniques help? Well, all the visual techniques - looking into the apex, choosing reference points, watching vanishing points, looking where you want to go, the drills against target fixation and the wide vision stuff are all equally applicable road or track.

Likewise, the drills on body positioning, being relaxed on the bike, moving your weight around smoothly on the bike are all good things to know wherever you're riding.

I also know from personal experience that the CSS 'hook turn' technique for dealing with a corner that tightens up on you saved me from adding to the number one biking fatality statistic, which is - middle aged born again runs wide on a fast left hander into the path of oncoming traffic and has a fatal head-on (B645 between Stonely and Staughton - you BHC guys know the one).

However, would I use the CSS deep entry points on the road? Not on a right hander unless I want to make the turn on all the crud that gathers on the outside of a bend. Left handers? Probably, if there's no traffic near my chosen turn in point.

Do I use "quick turns" on the road? Only on wider roads to practice them, and when there is no traffic about. The technique is all about countersteering very positively. The quicker you push the inside bar the quicker the bike will get to the required lean angle, the further you push the bar the greater your lean angle will be. That's fine on the track when it's as wide as most motorways, you've got plenty of room to compensate if you get it slightly wrong. On narrower roads you only have the width of a single carriageway to play with (unless you're sure you can use both sides of the road), so when you go to push the bar quickly, it's all too easy to push it too far and end up oversteering the bike. It's also too easy to remember that you can easily oversteer the bike, you over compensate for that. Consequently you only give the bar a meek and ineffective shove, and end up not steering hard or fast enough. Quick steering on the road is hard, you have to be incredibly precise and accurate, it requires loads of practise, which you can only do on the road unless you can afford loads of trackdays, a bit of a vicious circle.

I do aim to master quick steering by doing it while I'm riding very slowly. It's harder at higher speeds because it takes more force (because of the gyroscopic effect of the wheels), and therefore requires more confidence in the technique to turn the bike quick.

Having said all that. Only the visual techniques help you with all the other traffic hazzards that roads throw at you, and I would welcome the chance to get a bit more savvy about potential hazzards through IAM and Bikesafe etc even if it meant wearing a Sam Browne belt.

I would like to be a quick and safe rider on the road, I don't want to be the quick and the dead

Well said Jools. What the "Hook turn" technique?

It's not rocket science, and the 'hook turn' doesn't describe what the rider does. It is simply a description of a tightening radius turn - the plan of which would look a bit more like a hook than a constant radius bend.

Basically, prior to doing the hook turn stuff, they show you how to use your outside leg to brace yourself properly against the tank, and how to keep your lower body and pelvis stable. That means that your upper body and arms will be nice and relaxed if you need to use the 'hook turn', which is just a way of positioning your body to get your upper body really low (so your chin is almost level with the inside handlebar), and be able to do it without any danger of falling off the inside of the bike cos you're hanging off.

Doing this lowers the C of G of the bike quite dramatically, and since you only need to lean a bike to counteract the centrifugal force trying to flip you over to the outside of the bend, it enables the turn to be tighter without dramatically increasing your lean angle (thus retaining the larger contact patch and grip of a more upright tyre).

Weighting the outside peg also helps to lower the C of G and brace yourself into the bike so that you can use your arms to steer quicker and more forcefully.

That's how I remember it anyhow, some more experienced CSS'ers might pick me up on some of the things I might have forgotten, and Andy Ibbott's copyright police are probably after me right now:o

I need to print that out and study it!

I fiond that things like that only work if you make them become second nature. if you have to think about it then its too late.

I one had a Skoda Estelle(!!) We came over the brow of a hill and there were a queue of cars in the road where there shouldnt have been! I hit the brakes and the front wheels locked up. Luckilly the camber of the road dragged us into the kerb rather than into the back of a car but it was my own fault for not getting off the brakes and pumping the pedal.

Well i went over and over that incident in my mind for quite a few weeks. Then a while later the same thing happened. Car infront pulled up a bit quick, i braked and front wheels locked (no weight on the front of a Skoda you see), well without even thinking about it i took my foot off the pedal and pumped it and i stopped with no drama.

I tray and do the same with biking. If i go into a corner a bit quick and dont brake, i just lean it some more and look where i want to go. This has become instinctive for me. I guess its what they call a conditioned reflex.

I would definitely recommend the IAM. I joined the Cambridge group and have been out with them a few times. Never seen a Sam Browne. There are a few big BMW's, but the owners tend to ride huge distances (more in a day than I would ride in a week!) and you wouldn't choose a Duke for that. At least one of them has a 748 as well. And they don't hang about, but what is more impressive is the way they make going fast look so effortless. The general philosophy seems to be always observe 30 limits, usually 40 and 50, national speed limits - it's your license! My observer said more than once something to the effect of "Why do you own a 150mph bike and ride so f****** slowly" He rode a Blackbird and I couldn't stay anywhere near him when he was trying...

Go visit your nearest group and ask for an observed ride - won't cost you anything except maybe a bit of pride!

I did CSS Level 1 last year and will do Level 2 on April 8 (anyone going that day?). I agree with what others have said - there is a surprising amount that is common to road and track, but also some things that you wouldn't use often on the road. Money well spent IMHO.

A

I never had a go at your cars!


My old skoda was a fantastic car. Changing gear gear didnt make it go any faster, it just made the engine quieter.

Never got stuck in the snow or mud either and how many cars these days have a priming lever on the fuel pump or a grease nipple on the water pump!!

:)

I can feel a lot of skoda jokes coming on!!!

As Humphrey Bogart said in Casablanca, "This could be the start of a beautiful new thread"
:lol::sing::lol:

Yes... but it also the had the radio aerial built into the sunroof so it couldnt get vandalised.

And it was a lovely orange colour.

I once went into the garage and said "Have you got a petrol cap for a Skoda?" The man looked at me and said "Yeh, that sounds like a fair swap"

Back on topic, If anybody is interested in the IAM I'm organizing a evening for the Nottingham IAM to come over and give us a presentation, followed by an assesment ride for those interested in doing the IAM skills for life package, keep an eye on the rideout and meets section in a couple of weeks ;).

And as for Skodas watch out for them, some have over 200bhp and are driven by the boys in blue but with no markings :devil:

Darren

[Edited on 1-3-2004 by 748daz]

I haven't read in detail the whole thread so if I am repeating someone else please forgive me. One thing I have not seen mentioned is attitude. I have been an observer for the IAM and am currently observing with my local RoSPA group. I have also had track training with the CSS and do many track days. Some of the skills are interchangeable as mentioned but a rider can have all the training in the world and be technically very competant but if he has the wrong attitude in terms of other road users and his own mortality then it is useless.

In summary I'd say get some training with RoSPA / IAM and then use it sensibly balanced with a zest for the things that make biking fun.