Oil additives
 

Can any one reccomend an oil additive like Slick 50/ZX1 for use in my 2000 748r,as i have just put it in for its 6k service(FSH) and the dealers informed me that i need a new exhaust camshaft and 3 rockers.having bought my dream bike 4 weeks ago and warming it up before riding it i am gutted(£1000inl service).Makes me wonder why i sold a perfectly good Marlboro R6.Have e-mailed DUK to see if they are willing to do anything about it.Totally gutted!!!:(:(

Personally i use ZX1 you can get it from from most motor stores it uses anything it is added to as a carrier to get round the engine so you can add it to petrol and oil and cos dukes have a dry clutch you dont have to worry about messing that up .

Shazaam were are you :D advice is needed ???

Definitely a no. Went to a talk by Castrol a few years ago. The oils are given codes for viscosity and additives like anti froth agents, deoxidants and detergents etc. This shows how good they are, the cheaper oils have less and are therefore cheaper.

The Slick kind of additive does little to benefit if anything and can stop oil getting around the engine and in this synthetic world running Mobil 1 or the equivalent is far better.
:frog:

I'll get my coat!!

As an ex-Castrol employee, I tend to agree with Ducatimad.

Do you see Motogp and WSB engineers with Slick 50 and when was the last time you saw their name on a set of leathers as a major sponsor?

Modern day fully synth' oils will handle anything you can throw at them. For instance Castrol R4 is a derivitive from the development work and experience gained from thrashing Colin Edwards' SPW around the track.

By a decent quality oil and you can guarantee the development work has been put in as have the required addtivies to avoid breakdown (maintaining 'shear-stability etc) and corrosion and anti-frothing. Buy a spurious brand oil and you'll probably have greasy chips flying out your zorsts.

PJ,

I think you may just have been unlucky or perhaps the history isn't as full as you thought (not a dig). By that I mean did you know the previous owner? has it been bounced off the limiter all day etc in a previous life?

I've done nearly 16k miles on my 2001 748R and at it's recent 12k service one rocker was replaced cos the dealer found a tiny indentation. When he showed me, I could hardly see it....grain of sand sort of stuff.

I am still a believer that some you win and some you don't with Duke's. They aint all the same (unfortunately).

Press DUK..they have been known to help out if the bike has a FDSH and it's only just out of warranty or the mileage is low.

Good luck

[Edited on 6-6-2003 by Guido]

Just to add, I used to own a '69 Lotus Elan S4. A twin cam engine builder who rebuilt my engine, 1600 with alloy (very soft) twin cam head, swore by Mobile 1.

He used to have customers doing 100k miles on a twin cam engine with only rings being replaced durng that time. He also went nuts when anyone suggested additives like Slick.

:biaggi:

Pj748r,

Drop me an email , I have a 2000 996 and have just had this exact problem with four rockers, my bike was 4 months out of warranty and after a lot of persuasion DUK agreed to pay for the rockers, but not the labour, but the rockers are c£90 inc the VAT.

I have the contact details of quite a senior guy in the warranties department.

I'll be whatever help I can mate.

I work for EXXONMOBIL-abosolutly under no circumstance ever put "snake oil additives" into your bike. Oil companies put enough additives or VI in oil as is. Let it be. We highly recommend against them. Let your bike bike warm up a couple of minutes before riding. It only takes fully synthetic oil about 1-2 minutes to coat the rockerarms. Plus after you shut the bike off theres a film of oil left on them.

I never put the stuff in my oil at all !! just added a cap full of zx1 to the petrol on occasions.
(only stated what it said on the bottle) :o

Slippery Stuff!
 

Fully agree with all the other comments about not putting additives in your oil. I was told this many moons ago and have never done it. All the well know fully sinthetic oils are much of a muchness and will all perform well by themselves. I stick with the recommended Shell Fully sinthetic and all seems fine. Good Luck.:sing:

pj748r, despite Nigel C's attempt to suck me into an oil thread, you can rest assured that your problem was not caused by the lack of an oil additive.

On bikes with 4-valve heads, the rocker arms have simply not been reliable. A good number of them flake-off their chrome plating before the time of their first service at 6,000 miles and that often can result in scratched camshaft lobes if not caught in time. The rocker arms in 851/888's and pre-1996 916's typically lasted 80K miles with no problems. 1996 was the year when Ducati began to outsource the rocker plating to subcontractors and problems began.

Ducati basically concedes that there has indeed been a rocker problem in the past, but has repeatedly assured us that things have been fixed. They also point out that the rocker problem will be covered under warranty, even if you're outside the warranty period, (if it's not a race bike or an SPS/R.) So, when you have this problem, just work with your local dealer who will replace the damaged parts. If you're out of warranty, you usually will have to pay for the labor cost only.

They're not just being good guys here. From a legal standpoint, if there is a known manufacturing defect, warranty period or not, the manufacturer is responsible to sell you goods that can perform up to the standard expected when purchased - no matter how long after purchase.

There probably have been 17 rocker design iterations over the years. For 2001, Ducati announced they were now using an improved rocker design that is also compatible with earlier year engines. The new 2001 opening rockers can be identified by a small dot punched on the side where they fit onto the shaft. Unfortunately these rockers fail in exactly the same way. So even if you have a 2001 or later model, make sure that when you have your bike serviced at 6K miles, that they remove the cams (25 minutes labor) and inspect the rockers since any damage cannot be seen otherwise. The flaking starts as small little patches and if you catch early you can avoid cam damage.

To play it safe, and to make sure that Ducati doesn't balk at replacing your rockers, it's a good idea to keep adequate records to show that you've adjusting the engine valve clearances to Ducati specs on schedule, and used a lubricant that conforms to Ducati's specification in the owners manual.*There have been instances reported where some Ducati dealers have tried to make the owner feel that they have somehow abused the bike and then charged them for repairs.

The rocker arms have a hard chrome coating to increase their wear resistance where they contact the cam lobe. The opening rockers are more likely to be affected but occasionally the closing rockers flake as well. The closers don't take anywhere near the abuse as the openers.

There has been a lot of debate about the reasons why the chrome comes off. The answer is likely a combination of inadequate chrome thickness and the unusually long time needed for the oil to reach these parts during a cold start. In normal circumstances, a good synthetic oil would leave a surface film that is adequate lubrication until oil flow is established.

There's correlation between a lack of oil and rocker failures. For example, the horizontal cylinder exhaust rockers sit in a oil bath and rarely fail. Most often, failures are seen in the more distant vertical cylinder rockers, especially on the hotter exhaust side. For the 1999 model year, Ducati increased the size of the oil galleys to the heads to try to solve the problem.

I don't think Ducati knows the definitive answer. If they did, the problem would’ve been corrected years ago. If it's any consolation, this type of problem is not unique to Ducati. Other manufacturers have had rocker hard coating issues in the past. Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki, to name a few.

Replacing a failed rocker with another having the same potential for failure doesn't make a lot of sense, so some owners have installed Megacycle rockers, stock rocker arms that have been machined down in thickness to allow for a greater thickness of chrome to be applied. Others say that the Corsa rockers are the ultimate fix.

The Megacycle fix is to grind the rocker/cam contact area back .035 to .040 inches and then build back up with a hard nickle-chrome boron alloy brazed onto the rocker, then grind the repair back to factory specs.

http://www.megacyclecams.com/

See Neil Spalding's articles on the Signa Performance website for more information:

http://www.sigmaperformance.com/rockers.html

998 Testastretta
 

What's the situation with the testastretta engine Shazaam?

[Edited on 8-6-2003 by Henners]

thanks for all the advice fellas.I have emailed Ducati Uk but haven't had a reply yet!I have got to ring Dealers tomorrow to see how they are getting on with it,might chase up DUK thru them especially as it seems to have been a common problem having looked back thru the old message board.Think previous owner mightn't have been very mechanically sympathetic!Might change oil+filter every 3k to be on safe side.Any recommendations on oil Motul/Shell?mobil 1.Have used Mobil1 on all previous Jap bikes R6,ZX6r etc allhigh revvers compared to Dukes.Still no matter the outcome won't be going back to UJM.:lol:

Shazaam, I can tell you from my own experience that Corsa rockers also flake. I usually have to replace at least one rocker at every valve shimming, which is about 500-1000 miles. This is on a factory RS engine running Motul 300V, which some people claim is the best oil for protecting against failures due to the long time before oil reaches the heads. My feeling is that any top spec racing oil is about equal in protecting against this. I agree with you that the rockers are just not up to the job. Haven't tried to get them replated by others such as Megacycle (I've even seen Megacycled rockers flake). Just consider it a consumable which in most cases (not mine unfortunately) Ducati supply at no charge.

Henners, the new testatretta engines with their plain bearing cams have significantly shorter oil lines, coming up the right hand side of the engine.*Hopefully, a reduction from the 90 second-or-so lubrication delay encountered with the earlier engines will help to solve the problem.

Finally got bike back on saturday afternoon.DUK paid for the camshaft and half the cost of the 3 rockers.Didn't charge for labour.Ride home convinced me why I got rid of my R6!Any one had any probs with DPchip as I had it fitted at service,it cuts out sometimes when idling at lights(standard chip didn't).Apart from that no flatspots above 3k and it picks up great.:lol:

PJ,

My 748R used to cut out at lights etc on the DP chip (with 45mm termi's). My dealer swapped it for a JHP item and it's been much better. The dealer tweaked the TPS (Throttle Postion Sensor) and idle adjustment too.

Runs like a dream now (even at traffic lights or slowing for them). Hasn't cut out on me in months.

On a final note....Hit 18k miles tonight on my blast out b4 a week away at the office.

Sun was blazing, heat was hot...Isn't life ace.!!!!!

On an even more final note.... If your bike still plays up, go and see Nelly at Cornerspeed (just off M1 Jnctn 28). He'll sort if for you

[Edited on 4-8-2003 by Guido]