112.4 mph speeding THE SUMMONS
 

having been stopped yesterday by an unmarked silver volvo on the m20, the officer believes according to the equiptment fitted to his vehicale that timed me over 1 and a half miles that my average speed was 112.4mph.

should a court happen to agree with this claim, following the relevent questions about calibration etc, what would be the penalty i might expect, should i contest it and be found guilty or decide to plead guilty. the nice officer indicated that i might expect a ban, ??? would be dire for my job etc..

has anyone any knowledge of any guidance regarding penalties that is issued to magistrates when dealing with excessive speeding.

[Edited on 26-8-2004 by Bungi]

not a chief constable then...;)I'd think ban, tho only a couple of weeks, depends on the county you're prosecuted in. Most guys at work who have this usually take couple of weeks on leave and/or 'crap' duties.

As far as I understand it, anything over 100mph on the motorway will result in a ban of some sort.

Get a good local brief that specialises in traffic and plead lots of mitigation!

Appologise to the judge, ask for your work requirement to be considered then bend over and take your punishment.
The road is not a race track young man... if your licence is that important to you then why risk loosing it???
Sorry for the lack of sympathy btw, but I'm getting too sensible in my old age!

Bungi,

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but my brother (and business partner) got stopped on the M20 last September, average speed 106mph, clear road, clear day and all that ...

We run an estate agency so his car is essential for his work, even after getting a decent brief and pleading mitigating circumstances and all the "car for work" stuff they fines him £620 and banned him for 56 days ....

Probably what you are looking at ... except most magistrates hate bikers with a passion ...

I have no symapthy but wish you well, we have all done it .... just hope they arent too harsh mate.

Pietro

What\'s with you guys today?
 

Bungi wasn't looking for your sympathy, just asking for information.

And in any case, why are you not sympathetic? You've all done it; Bungi gets my sympathy for being the unfortunate one that got caught.

I did give him some information, its about as relevant as it gets ....

cheeky mare ... lol

Yeah, sorry bungi.
Good luck with it all.

Methinks that what this bloke shoulda done ;)

http://www.visordown.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159854 :D

there is a sllim chance, - perhaps a very slim chance that the judge will look favourably on you as "the system" is under some sort of media review right now, - the idea of point being related to the speed done and road conditions, location etc. So I would make as many notes as possible about road conditions, number of cars around you (or hopefully empty road) etc. At the end of the day you know you are going to be done, - I guess your aim has to be to just reduce the punishment, - put an order in for a multistrada blaim the manufacturer for making a bike that does 150mph and selling them for the road? ;) Sorry being flipant, not smug, - I reacll why I gave up biking for about 8 years in 1990, - got caught doing 115mph and then waved over by a policeman in a hurry to be somewhere else at 120mph about 2 weeks later. Good luck whatever.

As Lizzie said we have all done it best of luck mate.:(:(

hey guys im certainly not looking for sympathy, certainly could have been worse, there are many examples of 140-150 mph offences that could begin custodial scentances. just glad thats not me, at least not right now!

just wnat to know what to expect because my employer can dismiss me instantly if i get disqualified, as holding a driving licence is part of the posts essential criteria.



any previously sucessfull mitigation would be interesting.

you have my complete sympathy.

Its really starting to bug me how a (probably??) law abiding citizen (altho we are actually subjects, says it all really!), who pays his taxes, lots of contribution to the insurance industry if he has a duke and under 40, probably contributes in other meanigful ways to the society he lives in, may lose his complete life because he commits a victimless crime. His actions did nothing to push up my insurance, nothing to stop peolpe leaving their homes, not tried to kill, rape or murder anyone, didnt get drunk and threaten all around - just rode too fast on a motorway, the safest place for it. The punishment DOES NOT fit the 'crime'!!

I am sure some will say 'well he could have done this that and the other' 'if he does they all will', 'think of the deaths on the road' but any link is yet to be ACTUALLY established. And if we all got punished for what we MAY do, there wouldn't be enough space in prison

I would ask all those who come here from other developed countries - WHY??? We live in a nanny state, are over taxed, get nothing back and are expecting to thank a copper for letting us off with a fixed penalty!

I think most of you will have seen that I am not anti police, but I am anti many of the stupid, meaningless and frankly absurd laws and punishments we have in this counrty. I sat if your caught doing shed loads of speed, and its dangerous, prosecute accordingly, ie dangerous driving. If not, eg bright sunny day, open wide motorway, not much traffic etc huge fine to deter you. But if you cause someones death or injury thru your actions behind the wheel/bars, throw the book at you and chuck away the key!!

Bungi - sorry for hijacking your thread with my rant... and I for one hope you get a lenient magistrate who will take into account your circumstances.

I'm off to calm down now

I was reading, cannot remember where ATM, about the popularly quoted statistic that 30% of serious accidents are caused by speeding. It was alleged that a more precise examination of the circumstances shows that this 30% is where excessive speed is a factor - i.e. speed greater than that appropriate for the conditions.
If you look again at these serious accidents, the percentage of cases where there were no other factors other than speed in excess of the posted speed limit the ratio is actually under ten percent.
To illustrate the point of all this, an accident may occur on the motorway at 50mph - under the 70mph limit, but the speed could be said to be excessive because, say, thick fog was present. However, the accident still falls under the category of "speeding". It is here that we see the the popular correlation between "speeding" and serious accidents falls apart, i.e one in ten serious accidents is caused by speeding, not one in three.
I found the article interesting.

the summons arrived today!

from what i make of it, i can plead guilty by post and ask the court to deal with it in my absence??

so what will happen then??

my understanding is that to disqualfy you you have to be present? so does that mean i wont get a ban or will they then just write and ask me to attend after ive pleaded guilty,??

it all make a differance as obviouly i need to get the best possible result?

which would be no ban or minimum ban!
id be happy to do this if they are not

if you do get a ban for so many months, when you get you licence back it don't have no points on
if you do manage to weasel out of a ban the judge will slap 11 on there plus a hefty fine.
as i understand it?
id prefer the ban option myself as with just 6 of the little buets i regurly have panick attacks every time i creep over the stated limit.
best of luck

realisticly no licence no job, employer has already warned me more than a 3 week ban and bye bye, as they wont be able to carry my work load.

or il have to employ someone to drive me and on my wages thats just not likely to be affordable

[Edited on 27-8-2004 by peterg]

i would rather have 11 points than BAN on my licence, Think of the insurance, They dont like bans

You ride your bikes and take your chances as they say
What a Bummer !! sorry to here about it Bungi good luck mate
:(:(:(

Bungi,

Sorry to hear it mate….and sorry to say you’re on a very sticky wicket.

I have some experience of this eventuality having been there twice myself.

You have a moral question to ask yourself firstly. Which is higher…your morals or your livelihood????

There may be some facts that help you answer this question, but it usually comes down to either/or at the end of the day.

To help you answer the question think about these aspects…… Do you think you were being dangerous…..?? Yes you were speeding, but were you being dangerous…???We all know Chief Constable Richard Brunstrom has lost the plot a little in that it’s not speed that causes accidents but bad driving (inappropriate use of speed falls into this category). So ask yourself….Was it a clear, dry day, was the road quiet, was it early in the morning/late at night, was everyone else doing a similar speed or were you screaming past everyone else…??? These are all things that might work in your favour..

Then comes the moral question……Do you think you were travelling at that speed?? It’s not as cynical a question as you might think, but is one that could cause your morals to quiver or falter…Why you ask…

You do have a right to contest the information given to you by the Police. Contesting this information may be genuine, but may also be because you simply want to ‘get off’ the conviction. You have to make that decision, others like me can only advise you on what options you have.

Under current law and the CPS, you have every right to request copies of the evidence and witness statements that ‘The Crown’ intends to use against you. That includes copies of police patrol car videos, calibration certificates and officer witness statements. What was the ‘time and distance recording’ equipment used. VASCAR, Pro-Vida etc. Most Pro-Vida systems rely on video evidence as do some VASCAR. If you’re going to ‘contest’ things you need to be clear on which systems you’re up against so you know what evidence to request.

As far as likely outcome goes then you definitely looking at a ban. If you have ‘previous’ speeding convictions or a ban then you could be looking at 3 or 6 months for that sort of speed dependant as ever, on the magistrate you get on the day. They don’t have to ban you as some people think over 100mph, it’s only an option to issue an instant ban. Mitigating circumstances can help but they’d have to be bluddy good to get off of a ban at 112mph. More likely they’ll reduce a 6 monther down to a 3 if you’re lucky. If you have serious previous (dangerous driving, ban etc) then you could get a year if they’re really having a bad day and don’t like you.

I don’t want to go into too much detail on an open forum Bungi cos we do have members of the constabulary in the club and it may cause some difficulty discussing this subject in too much detail too openly. Feel free to drop me a line on email and I’ll help all I can.

Have a look at www.pepipoo.com too as it will give you some ideas on your rights and possible course of action before submitting a plea etc.

Regards, Guido

Nice post Guido ... could potentially help us all out ..

Would have thought the threat of sacking would be a good defence. How many people have got off cos they needed to have a vehicle to earn a living? You see them all the time.

Pity your not in Manchester, then at least you could plead that you thought the Volvo was a paparazzi media geezer who mistook you for one of those football players and you were merely trying to escape his camera.

Best of luck with it.

I got done last summer for doing 124.7mph :sing::sing::sing::sing::sing: Ha Ha Ha beat u
and i got
28 day ban ( and ive gotta say the best christmas Holiday ive had thanks to the FU@#ING WA#@ER that pulled me. He lied in court and lied to me at the side of the road as he didnt have me at all but there you go one rule for them TOSSERS and one for us ) feel better for getting that off my chest. I also got £140 + 45 court costs

A C A B this is true

Sorry you are looking at a ban Bungi but there it is, you are a biker therefore a danger to society and therefore guilty as hell. Bearing that in mind I would plead not guilty and go to court-at least that way you will have a chance to see what they actually have on you, and stand a chance(small) of getting it thrown out.
I would send a U2U to Rushjob or AndyB and ask their professional advice-they may give you a verbal slapping but may also help-it's worth asking.

John

I know of someone who recently escaped at 104mph with 5 points and £150 fine by going to court, had a good bried who found a technicality to do with how the vascar equipment was being used, but then he was in a car and your's is a bit quicker.. Good luck anyway

thanks for the veiws peeps

its good to know others experiance of the sort of outcomes i might expect.

i was actualy asking what happens if i return the summons by ticking the plead guilty by post box, does this mean i cant be banned or will they then just write to me and tell me to come because they are thinking of banning me any way?

i am aware of the not guilty route and am considering this option also?

nice post guidio thanks, but i cant seem to acces the web page link, will try again later, might be my computer or isp.

Ticking the ‘plead guilty’ box will have little effect in terms of the sentence/conviction. It’s just a way of reducing admin and making it easier for you to plea. Because of the speed you’ll definitely appear in court.

In my experience, you do not want to appear as though you’re being cocky or a smart-ar$e in any way. If there’s any sniff of that then they’ll throw a big book at you.

Having said that, you can ‘request’ information if you do feel that you’re not convinced you were doing that speed, as I was, and want to ascertain that all is in order with the equipment and the manner in which it was used. Be assured, there have been cases and instances where the guidelines (which are very precise) haven’t been followed by officers (be it maliciously or as an oversight). In those instances, the case can be ‘thrown out’.

My advice is to request any information before you enter a plea (so as not to aggravate anyone in the court system). You don’t want to be changing pleas at the last minute if you can help it. Get all your information early so you can then make an educated judgement before you get to court. It will help you with damage limitation if the magistrate or CPS official were to get any kind of sniff that you might be ar$ing about.

As I said before, I can help you get the answers you want from the system but can’t help you answer the moral question posed earlier.

In my case I still got banned, but at least I went to court knowing that all was done correctly and in line with the law/CPS guidelines.

Guido

Bungi, at the time, were you informed of the type of equipment fitted to the vehicle, and shown the play back of a video if used/ fitted?

I would concur with a lot of things that have been said. In my experience i would involve a brief right from the start. The 'system' reacts to their imput with a scurry, and accepts their requests for the various items as they are just doing their job. I guess we as individuals dont quite command the same attention.

The comments about aggravating the system and appearance are spot on, particularly in a Magistrates Court.

The whole thing may turn on just one point and not necessarily evidence! For example, i have seen a persistant disqualified driver who was banged to rights caught driving, arrested, identification not an issue, etc, have his 10th time for this offence quashed in Court because the prosecution did not serve the defence with a notification of the individuals ban on this occasion. An admin error, totally oblivious to the fact of this persistant Offenders ways. This is called an abuse of position.

I have seen a defence Solicitor dancing up and down the waiting area in the Court singing, "Its only a game show!" which it is.

If your occupation is on the line then I would suggest You have to appear! Pleading Guilty, and it being dealt in your abscence means you dont get to put a personal touch on your case. You are not there to waste the Courts time merely to plead a case that may have a devastating effect on your otherwise good character.

I quite like the idea of Morals, but this has nothing to do with the ideal world. The fact that you did or didnt do it, only comes into it when the evidence is overwhelming, and video evidence does have this effect. A picture being a thousand words.

In short mate, get a brief and let them aquire all the info. Document factually what you remember about the incident chronologically, similar to a statement. Dont get too poetic as if it is on video you will look silly. However if it is on video and you can get a copy, you could use this to your advantage to example road conditions, traffic volume manner of riding etc. etc.

Speeding
 

Been there, 107mph on the M10, got the 14 day ban and £200 fine.

Plead guilty, attend court, get a good brief who knows and is known by the local bench, get a letter from your employer stating that anything over 3 weeks is a sacking and eat ENORMOUS amounts of humble pie.

If you don't attend they will think you don't care, regardless of any employment circumstances.

If you don't attend they can still ban you - they'll just send you a summons forcing you to attend on another day so they can tell you about it.

If you act humble, look scared, and show remorse it might just help - don't look at it as compromising your principles or being beneath you, as I doubt you really care too much about the magistrates opinion of you, you just want the smallest penalty for something you have to accept you did.

If you get a smaller ban due to your job situation, expect a bigger fine, as they'll get you one way or the other.

If your licence is clean and you have no past speeding history, play this card too. It can all help.

My brief expected 4-12 week ban and £1,000 fine and I got away lightly by by previous good record and looking ***** scared/grovelling (without sucking up too much) in the court!!!

Good luck!

G

PS. Regardless of wheat we think of the speeding laws and how they're applied, it certainly slowed me down and I try NEVER to see 3 figure speeds on the UK roads these days 'cause it's just not worth the worry/hassle/costs!

the plea that you need your licence for work does not carry much weight in my experience.
I took the , solicitor, take the boss along to plead for you route some time ago. Made no difference, the judge was chomping at the bit to but in while the brief spoke for me so that he could say " ban for 1 month, £165 fine. Hardly even polite enough to let him finish speaking.
The next guy up after me was done on the same day by the same cops. for 1 mph less (104) He also pleaded that he needed his car for his job.
Because he was a company director he won and got no ban larger fine.
Go figure, if he was a company director could he not afford a driver. I was just a field service engineer at the time with a real risk of loss of livelyhood.

I would just add that if you are going to request various items of evidence such as video, calib/certs etc, why get a brief involved at that stage. It's common knowledge that every letter a solicitor writes on your behalf can cost in excess of £50 easily. As long as you're courteous and know a bit of the terminology, you can get most bits that you need to make a decision on your next course of action (I did).

In my case I wrote up to 7 letters to the Procurator Fiscal (my 'fau-pas' was north of the border) and made numerous phone calls before all evidence was released. That saved me a fortune and I was safe in the thought that by doing it myself I didn't miss anything cos I had a vested interest in the result unlike some solicitors who are just concerned with taking your money.

Request the info, get it, analyse it, and if you think you have a case then go to a brief and get them to give you a legal observation without spending a penny.

Only my tuppence worth being a tight Yorkshur g1t.!!!

On the above, the reason Co/Directors often get off lightly is that being in their position they are responsible for many people's livelihood's not just the one. Courts don't like to be seen to effect a large amount of people with one judgement and thus treat these individuals a little differently.

[Edited on 27-8-2004 by Guido]

I got pulled in a car some years back on the M1, was well over 120 (believe it or not) but summons said 100, guess the traffic guys thought it would be enough for me to get well chopped. Went to court having pleaded guilty, took the (then) wife along and stuck her wailing at the back with my baby son. It was a lady magistrate and I got away with a fine, a few points and that was that on the true grounds that I'd done nothing dangerous and hadn't caused an accident, also that losing my licence would not just affect me but my family as I'd lose my job.

When taken by the usher to pay the fine I asked if she thought it had been worth going to court, she reckoned I'd have got a ban for sure if I hadn't.

Basically the whole speed issue is bollox, it isn't the real killer, we all know that but it's an easy target. Whatever you have to do to beat the system go ahead and don't worry about the morals, the legal system has little regard for morality or justice.

speaking of justice, example 1, speeding of say 100mph on a motorway, on a bike, punishment, banned from driving and fined couple of hundred, rider loses job resulting in inability to pay mortgage/bills etc ......example 2, quoted from mcn last week, `a driver who was talking on his mobile phone and swerved into the path of a motorcycle, killing the biker, was convicted of dangerous driving and fined £3000`.......justice, what justice ??:mad:

Don\'t let the ******** get you down!
 

Bungi
I got clocked at 136 on the A5 and ended up with an SP30 2 Months ban, with £300 fine & £30 costs.
A friend of mine was clocked at 146 om the M20 and got a 2 month ban with a £250 fine! Less than me, can you believe that...

Basically, you will get banned over 100mph.
You could get a brief but I was told "why pay for a solicitor when all theyre gonna do is put mitigation before the bench" You could do this yourself.

Better still just ride in France! Good luck

really helpfull stuff everone thanks

hopefully for the benifit of others as well as myself

Take it from me mate, dont defend yourself! There is a certain skill / appreciation of the whole procedure, that you will not have, having not frequented the Courts.

That said it hurts me to say pay for a Solicitor, money grabbing, time wasting, spineless lot that they are!

And what is it you do for a living, andyb?

From anecdotal evidence, I would say, Bungi, defend yourself. Be cringingly humble and as polite as a public school boy standing in front of the headmaster who is wielding a cane. Be prepared to bare your arse and keep everything crossed.

Good luck. :rolleye::rolleye: