Class A in the Grave?
 

I was looking at the standings and noticed how small the Class A grid is. Is that it for the season or are there people missing from the list who did not attend the first two rounds?

I'm sure JPM and Lily are missing for very good reasons, if it wasn't for the Saturday accident there would be 12 in the standings, but that is still 9 to 10 people short of the list I was given at the begining of the season.

I have just missed the only meeting I intend missing this year, I have booked both days at Snetterton using Sunday as a test day to see if the bike is improved.

Class pure class Kev:lol:

Yes, not nice hearing about JPM and Lily. I was looking at Tonio's website and the list there is still short....

I reckon even I could score points ;)

...if I had a bike :lol:

Easly sorted, stick your hand in your pocket & buy one then :D


Chris.

Yep easy! :rolleyes:

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, 30 odd pots and a 620 Championship thanks ;)

Well, you did ask the question Dom:rolleyes:


Chris:burn:

I don't think I asked any questions :rolleyes:

AAAAAAH,

I was just reminiscing about the good old days of Wonderboy and Spoiler.

Excellent :lol:

Want the loan of a bike, Dom? ;)

You? Buy a bike? Or even a t-shirt? :lol:

Its the threatened 50% tax on high earners...........if I was an MP I'd be putting race fees on expenses :frog:

Now there's a thought...I'll go and become an MP and get the tax payer to pay for my racing.....right, better go write a manifesto....actually better still I'll use someone else's and change the words round a bit....no one will notice...:-)

Good reason
 

I'm sure all those not racing again this year have good reasons.

Is it time to look again at rules for next year and try to find a balance between the performance of class A and class B bikes, so they can be run as one class.
Given the results of the dyno and weight figures maybe we're not too far away as it is.

Let the 750 carb'd bikes run against 620 injecteds, a simple upgrade to the 583's already out there :)

Quite a bit away for competitive racing between the classes. Sam West was flying and he was 3.5 secs adrift of Shep and Otei. Mixed grids don't bother me at all, its just bikes racing.

Corner speeds are about the same between the 2 classes when someones on board who can do corners.

Thats a bloody good idea. :D

I Quite Like Mixed Grids?
 

Arrgg! now I've said it.. I quite Like some faster bikes out there, It's great. I don't know how they feel but its fine by me.

LOL

750 Carbed sounds a good idea to me....or even a 'TP' conversion (now that really does have a ring to it....maybe a show on Men and Motors....hmmmm) if it get's the bike up to 620 speed.

What other changes will a 583 need if the engine is going faster....brakes, forks...anything else?

Conversion of a early 583 engine to bigger valve heads isn't that simple as I understand it, If you have a late 1999 to 2001 583 Monster engine then you can fit the 620 heads and domed pistons, To take it to a full 620 you would need the crank as well.
There is a head on Ebay at the moment for £90, so for a pair of heads, barrels and pistons your probably looking at £250 to £300 providing you have the late engine, by the time you look at adding a crankshaft you may as well be buying a 620 engine (earlier ones are 5 speed later ones 6 speed) prices vary depending on age, mileage etc.
If you could run carbs then you would just need some jetting work done to your old 583 carbs.
The alternative to carbs is fuel injection in one form or another, the original setup with Injector bodies, higher pressure fuel pump, coded clocks, ECU, keys and Harness will set you back a fair bit
There is an alternative of going with a non standard non coded ECU such as a FIM module (not cheap) and you still need the harness for the 5.9M type ECU, throttle bodies, pump etc or you could use a 750SSie ECU with a harness from either the 750SSie/900SSie or the M900ie along with a power commander, pump and throttle bodies

Most people are already runing 40mm pipes so no real cost there.

Then again for those wanting to move into class A there are bikes like Trouty's out there for £2k, you can alternatively buy a standard road 620 for less than that.

Going the carbed 750 route may well have tyre implications as well as the age of the engines and spares availability

Or how about converting the 620s to 583s? :eek:

Didn't Ducati make a big bore kit for the 600 ??







I'll get my coat

As I read the rules there's nothing stopping anyone running a carbed 620 in Class A.

Except somehow you have got to make the sparks happen. The flywheels are different so you can't use the 583 pickup setup, and a pair of CDI boxes are almost as expensive as a new ECU.

Unless you use a 750ss ie loom and ECU for the sparks and a set of flat-slides for the fuel...........hmmm

Anyone got a set of 35mm flatsides spare? :ninja:

750 conversions sounding a bit fanciful then. So...i'll ask my original question again:

Is Class A DEAD, not tired or shagged out or just restin?

SSSSTTTTTOOOOOPPPPPP !!!!!! Move away!!! Actually you've managed to get a 620 to perform like a 583 by just fuggin around with it - leave it alone, walk away from the tool kit. ;)

I've managed that as well, but hopefully things will now be a bit different, I'll soon find out at Snetterton if I can't get it dyno'd before then.
Still got to remake a coil mount and try fitting the 998 PC3 USB, before it goes anywhere but i'm hopeful I have improved on the 55bhp I had at Donington.

Like Paul p I went the route of converting what was basically my 583 Class B bike to a 620, but as I could not get any life out of it when fitted with the 620s original clocks, ECU and coded keys I opted for the 750SSie ECU route without realising some of the pit falls, after all my 583 had been so easy to sort out, getting 51.5bhp at the rear wheel and like Paul P netting a few Class B podiums. Since going the DIY 620 route we have both struggled to match the performance we acheived on our 583s.
Some times I wish I hadn't switched class as Class B was more fun from where I was sitting

Take Pembrey
2005 - NG Minitwins 583DD bike on Pirelli Super Corsas - 1m 10s lap
2007 - NG Minitwins 750SSie on Pirelli Super Corsas - 1m 08s lap
2008 - DD races Class A 620 Diablo Control tyre 1m 14s lap

and I'm certain its not the Diablo that was costing me 4 secs a lap over my 583, I was expecting at least 1m 10s on Diablos.

Hmmm, there aren't too many who have switched from 583 to 620 and matched their previous results though. It deffo took Andy S a while to adapt, Chris W, Phil H didn't match their results initially, obviously the exam paper is somewhat harder (in terms of competition), but not sure about how much better their lap times were either?

I've not ridden a 583 at all, so no expert here, but as a discussion point, does the fact that the throttle on a 583 can be wound fully on before a 620 one could (by normal riders like us) give riders more confidence to go faster? As its one less thing to worry about? Maybe it just tales time?

I remember a test day at Snett, when I was matching / catching a quickish GSX600 rider (racer) on corner speed around bombhole-corum on my ol' 620 and whilst it wasn't all full-throttle for me, it was nowhere near for him, he had decision to make on throttle opening and I didn't really, and I closed on him.

Gawd nose!!! ;) - but Jimbers seems to have found his DD mojo since mounting a 583, I reckon he would go faster on a 583 than a 620????

When Lily's not crashing :eek:, she says her laptimes on a DD bike compare closely to those on her 998. Familiarity, or fear of the unknown? :dunno:

So is it fear of the awesome power, torque and drive of a 620 over a 583? :)

Or is it that that they weigh a ton? Or is it just to have a little bit more power means you have to be a little bit more cautious? :devil:

Or perhaps there's less to fug about with on a 583 and hence the tinkerers like you and Payne can really mess up a 620 !!!! ;) and slow it down.


The answer? Only go near it to ride it..........and if it aint broke.......!!! :rolleyes:

Oh I don't know, I recall changing the jetting to match the weather conditions at Castle Combe - and subsequently won the race!

I think that there is definitely some truth in the "flat out on a 583 but not quite sure when to nail the 620" theory. Possibly its easier if you have only ridden one or t'other, with the exception of the honorable Andy Shep?

Class A - Not Dead, Resting or Retired - just Puzzled

PS Franco - can I borrow my old 583 back please??!!

Surely you'd planned to change the fork springs, raise the rear, check the squish, remove a disk, mod the timing, swap the engine, replace the loom and get it dyno'd between qually and the race, - you must've been tight for time??? :puzzled:

Most people might take a set of spare wheels/tyres on a foreign trackday, you the only one I've known to take a spare set of forks!!! :eek:

There were days when he'd have a spare bike....
"Hmm... not fast enough....I'll try the yellow one"

Fwiw. I think one of the biggest things that you have to adapt to is the speed difference between the two aproaching a corner. You are always more likely to roll off too early after stepping from a 583 to a 620. There isn't a fantastic amount of difference in the top speed, but even that extra 5-10 mph will have you braking a long time before you did on a 583.

My 620 was too much of a dog to just get on and ride it at first. In hindsight i wish i'd never touched it; the exhaust bellowing smoke, the wooden seat. It would have all been better than the embarressing few horses towing it along now. I think i'll trade it in for three beans

Just my two peneth,

I had a ride on a 620 that whilst was very well put together, was not super trick at the end of oct last year at mallory in the cold and got down into the 1:01's in three sessions, i'd done 1:02.97 on my 583 when we raced there at the first round. Really didn't feel any different in the places you could open the throttle on it, and it turned and stopped far better than my 583 did.

I do think that its in the mind as the difference in power is pretty much negligable, its not like the difference between a 600 and a 1000 jap four.

Jimbers really has got on well with the 583 though so far, couldn't believe it was the same person after watching him at anglesey!

In fairness your 583 was fresh at the start of the season & the 620 was tired with 4 or 5 bhp down after a hard season & in need of a refresh.

Mmmm
 

How would removing FIM's and Power Commanders affect the 620's and could the weight difference be made greater to find some of the difference?

The trouble is the one I bought was broke and did not run any improvement on that isn’t really messing it up.

Going with the 750Ssie ECU has its problems, the rev limiter kicks in at 9200rpm meaning you have no over rev, also it is normally connected to injectors that are designed to flow 22% less fuel than those of a 620. Then there are the slotted/adjustable cam sprockets which means the cam timing can be all over the place. On one of my cylinders the inlet was opening at 4 degrees AFTER TDC when measured at 1mm of lift, the Standard Factory figure is 12 degrees BEFORE TDC, so having cams retarded by different amounts and by up to 16 degrees doesn’t help.

With Only 55bhp on tap compared to my 583s 51.5bhp I doubt if its anything to do with the throttle opening after all it’s a pussycat compared to the TL1000S and 916 I raced in SoT and the Blades I ran in the Open and Powerbike. Paul P probably thinks the same of his 620 when compared to the 888 based bike he use to race in SoT

The Frustrating thing is I bought a crashed but complete M620Sie to turn into a race bike, it came complete with two black keys, the red master key and the code card yet did not want to run. I spent hours and hours going over everything to try and get it sorted, but there was nothing I could do with the standard parts, either the clocks or the ECU were prohibiting me from getting it to run. I tried the breakers for second-hand set-ups but there were none available, a FIM was outside the budget so I opted for the 750Ssie ECU route

My advice to others is to start with a running 620 that is either using a standard ECU or something like the FIM unit on Trouty’s bike or a bike with a proven record

Which is still a lot better than most 583s... ;)

Eh?? You've lost me there Kev after the word problems... ;)

For what its worth I've done reasonably well in both classes. I found, as did many others, (Fil, Chris Wood, etc) the bikes to behave totally differently. Cobby has also rode both bikes and enjoyed the handling of the 583. The 583 engine has different weight and turning characteristics to the 620 so we found the bikes needed to be ridden differently. I've had to learn alot of racecraft with the 620 as it takes more care to ride faster than the 583 but once mastered you can cane it just as much as the 583 and pull 3-4 secs a lap (on average over the tracks) faster, but the 620 will bite back! As its going faster than the 583, its also more on the limit of the tyres.

Dont forget I have a very capable 620 for sale if someone fancies the transition.

This is just my opinion.

Andy

I have to agree with Jon, Andy and Tim's views.

620s' are much quicker, in the right hands, ex racers - Geoff, Cobby, Dom, Hawk etc (look at the records)... or those who have spent a few years learning how to ride them - Rattler, Andy. Very FEW amatuer racers, have transitioned from 583 to 620 quickly and easily.

Personally on my 583 I could be very direct and (clumsy?) when riding it and hussle it about. The 620 required more finnese? as it was going much faster, as Jon said, at the critical points of braking and in sweepers ie Assen or Cadwell! 5th gear flat out up Charlies on the 583, no problem? on the 620, clench sphincter!!

620's are more on the limit of tyres I agree completely.

I have ridden a number of 583's and 620's. IMO for a newbie, the 583's are easier to ride well, by virtue of their setups. The 620's are more difficult to ride quickly as you need much more confidence and learnt ability.

For me class A is just having a rest.

Leave it well alone and go race.

You, lucky, lucky, b4rstards.

haven't ridden a Class B bike so cannot comment, but I do know that the Class A bikes are not always that easy to ride. It takes some serious adaptation of riding style to get along with them as they are moderately quick but still bite back.

I am clearly having some tyre issues at the moment as I have had the back let go on me twice now on fastish corners, not something i have had previously and maybe due to me swapping to the bigger bikes with slicks in between?

Not sure what the answer is tbh, i think we need more people to try Class A and see how they enjoy it as it's hard work at times but rewarding if it goes well.

I am sure we will be back at some point, just cant say when that will be just yet!!